Strenths and Weaknesses - Tumblety

[Big Jon]

I said I'd make this weekly, so here's the offering for this week: "Dr" Francis Tumblety.

Tumblety was an American quack known to be in London during the time of the murders. His candiacy was discovered by Stewart P Evans in a letter from Littlechild, head of Special Branch during the murders.

I'll get the ball rolling:

+Was followed to America by a London police officer.

-Was arrested in London, believed to be for offences involving homosexuality.

Anyone wanna go next?

[How Brown]

That the primary reason for Inspector Andrews coming to America for Tumbelty is in dispute...

His January,1889 interview...which some feel he was unable to avoid while others feel strongly that he could have avoided the whole affair...comes off like a "infomercial" to those less than enthused about his candidacy.

No known arrests for violence on women by the age of 55...although it remains to be seen if records exist somewhere. Too ostentatious,too self-conscious,too easy to spot in the East End from my armchair view....



The concept that has been presented in the past that since Tumbelty fled the U.K. and was in U.S. soil, that the absence of newspaper coverage regarding Tumbelty was a result of the British police washing their hands of Tumbelty...and he was no longer a problem in London...is hard to swallow.

Back to you,Bigness....since I have no positives at this time for Tumbelty.

[Big Jon]

He really would have stuck out in Whitechapel! Riding on a big white horse, in a military uniform, great big moustache and a pack of dogs right behind!

+Colonel Dunham stated that Tumblety had a hatred of women, and collected female uterus's (uteruses? uterusi?)

[Stephen Leece]

Everything about Tumblety is wrong:
1. Tumblety is clearly a homosexual. Homosexuals do not kill straight street-walkers- they kill other homosexuals eg Dennis Nilsen, Dean Corll, John Wayne Gacy, Colin Ireland, Randy Kraft etc. Compare Tumblety's background/ character with known serial killers such as Peter Sutcliffe, Ted Bundy etc- there is a clear behavioural discrepancy.
2. Tumblety is ludicrously flamboyant- this is a guy with an exagerrated handle-bar tache and fondness for wearing military uniforms most of the time. He'd stick out a mile in Whitechapel.
3. Tumblety is in custody for homosexual acts on November 9th 1888- the day of Mary Kelly's murder.
4. The fact that Special Branch detectives followed him to New York does not mean they were following him on suspicion of being the Ripper, it's more likely they were following him over his political activities- he was a Fenian terrorist sympathiser.
5. The only people who claimed in 1888 that Tumblety was suspected of the Ripper crimes was the American press and Tumblety himself. After all he was heavily into self-promotion.
6. Stewart Evans/ Paul Gainey who first named Tumblety as a 'serious' candidate in 1995, needed (in my opinion) to demolish the Maybrick diary and saw Tumblety as a viable alternative. It's possible that their objectivity went out the window slightly, when researching him.
7. Tumblety dies in what 1903 was it? yet apparently does no killing between 1888 and 1903 or whenever it was he died yet quite happily alludes to being suspected of the murders. The man was full of sh*t.
8. His candidacy rests on one letter, ie the suggestion/ hazy memory of one Special Branch officer to a journalist, and a bunch of American newspapers. Special Branch as the 'political' police will engage in disinformation especially where journalists are concerned. I hope everyone at least acknowledges that much.
9. Furthermore 'Special Branch' at this time is a misnomer; the full name was 'Special Irish Branch' ie dealt with Irish terrorists, and where did Tumblety's political sympathies lie??????
10. Back to the 'Littlechild' letter- it's largely irrelevant to Ripperology, although many regard it as signed title page of the Bible. It's got more to do with the Harry Thaw case than anything else.

Just a few ideas, and opinions...

[Stephen Leece]

'Uteri' Jon

[Big Jon]

Great stuff Stephen!

Any pro-Tumblety people want to counter arguement, or weigh-in with their opinions?

[admin tim]

Littlechild and company were wrong about all other 'suspects'; why should they be right about Tumblety?

Tumblety was a cowardly lion who would flee at the first sign of trouble with the authorities. Is that the man who did Annie Chapman under those hair-raising circumstances in that backyard, and who did Kate Eddowes under very risky conditions in Mitre Square?

[How Brown]

On August 31st, he and Arthur Brice ( one of the 4 young guys he appeared in court for unnatural offenses for ) are doing the do....and then at night,he just happens to decide to kill Polly Nichols.

Dear Prof. Leece:

I must admit that this is the first time I ever heard that the complete title of "Special Branch" was Special Irish Branch. Thank you....and great list by the way.

[String]

Did any witness to the WM's ever say they seen or heard an American? I know there was something on the recent rippercast about a witness saying something about a foreigner. (no 34)
Anyway Tumblety being an American with I assume an American accent would be very noticeable even in cosmopolitan London. So I suppose it could be a slight negative that no one reported an American in the area.

[Big Jon]

How come we had 2 people vote for Tumblety on the poll I did the other day, but noone really arguing for him here?

Make your opinions known folks!

[Dustin Gould]

Okay. I'll chime in.

A homosexual could just have easily murdered a straight person, male or female, as they could another homosexual. And since we're on the topic of "homosexuality", which EXACTLY are we refering to? Are we refering to someone who was "born homosexual"? Someone who, based on their feelings and experiences, believes they were always such way? Or, are we refering to someone who has adopted "homosexual practices" (i.e. some male prostitutes, porn stars, prisioners) out of some significant event during the course of their lives? If we're going to talk about the subject, we should at least recognize the different "labels". Additionally, if we're going to base the sociopathic capabilities on where some happens to place their gentials on any given night of the week, then I think we're already way off track. How would we explain someone like Richard Speck, for example?

Additionally, Tumblety being "ludicrously flamboyant", certainly does nothing to disqualify him as potentially JTR . In fact, Tumblety is a bastion of testicular fortitude, when compared to some other homosexual killers, such as Michael Alig. Who was SO flamboyant, he made Liberace look like John Wayne. Not to mention, if he was covertly using the alleyways of Whitechapel during the wee hours of the night, it's entirely conceivable nobody had a chance to see said "flamboyance" in the first place. And who's to say he was even dressed in such a manner in the evenings?

"The only people who claimed in 1888 that Tumblety was suspected of the Ripper crimes was the American press and Tumblety himself. After all he was heavily into self-promotion.".....

And apparently, Littlechild himself. Based on the remaining letter (Because numerous police files and records were lost, in the bombings of WW2) . Who's to say with absolute certainty, that Gainey and Evan's theory about his potential as a suspect being buried by the police DOESN'T have a shred of credibility to it? I can't say for certain. Can you? I'm not going to delude myself into believing it would have been the first time it happened. Police corruption? No way!

"Tumblety dies in what 1903 was it? yet apparently does no killing between 1888 and 1903 or whenever it was he died yet quite happily alludes to being suspected of the murders. The man was full of sh*t."....

A problem with this theory: We cannot say with absolute certainty, what he did, or did NOT do, during this remaining time period. Maybe he didn't, but maybe he DID, and just never admitted to it. Bundy, the Green River Killer, etc. How many of these guys never kept accurate count of the people they killed? Therein lies the problem with serial killers. Even if he did choose to stop, so what? What does this prove? That he stopped. That's all.

Please keep in mind: This is not my ringing endorsement for Tumblety, as the "be all and end all". Just some points to consider.


In the meantime...Back to my cold meds...*sniff, sniff* :sick:

[Caroline Morris]

Hi Dustin, All,

The niggling problem I have with Littlechild's opinion of Tumblety as a 'very likely' suspect (apart from the fact that I think he meant a 'very likely ripper', or 'very good suspect' - according to him he was definitely a suspect, not just very likely to have been one ;)) is that it is based on his erroneous belief that this larger than life character was never heard of again after 'the last murder', and was believed to have committed suicide. We'll never know if his opinion would have been the same had he learned the truth about Tumblety's life after the Whitechapel murders. For all we know, if someone had given him the information he lacked he might have said "Oh well in that case he makes a very poor suspect indeed".

It's a real dog's dinner, and the fact that Littlechild had never heard of a Dr D only makes it worse, because it could suggest that he had muddled up the details of Druitt and Tumblety over the years and combined them into the one suspect - his hybrid Dr T.

Love,

Caz
X

[How Brown]

We'll never know if his opinion would have been the same had he learned the truth about Tumblety's life after the Whitechapel murders.---Caz

Good point,Caz...very good point. I wonder how Littlechild would have reacted specifically after the January 1889 New York World article.