A Reevaluation of Thomas Cutbush: 2008

[How Brown]

Recently,as many know,the "books" have been opened up at Broadmoor's archives.

Individuals may peruse the documents found at the institution for not only Cutbush,but other persons who made it into the facility.

Is it time to reevaluate Cutbush based on what has been gleaned so far...not only from supporters,such as A.P.Wolf and Robert Linford...but from those who may have given little consideration to Cutbush in the past?

Lets discuss it.

[A.P. Wolf]

How, I'm not so sure that the good Robert and myself should be described as supporters of Thomas Cutbush as a viable suspect for the Whitechapel Murders, as we have moved heaven and earth to disprove that rumour... but it keeps coming back.

[How Brown]

Okay then A.P.

Lets just say the two most objective Ripperologists who do more than just cast aside his candidacy.:kiss:

[A.P. Wolf]

Yes, How, I like that better.
As I'm sure you'll know Robert and myself have even gone so far as to speculate that it was in the Cutbush family interest to have young Thomas locked away for life as a lunatic - or the Whitechapel Murderer - as then they inherited the valuable properties belonging to his father.
Which they did; but it didn't seem to do them any good.
His mum fell down the stairs, and uncle Charles shot himself in the head.

[How Brown]

Dear A.P.

One of the issues that I had intended to bring up was whether or not Thomas was actually related to Charles Cutbush.

Could you or Robert please elaborate on this,since I believe Robert has mentioned it elsewhere that there may NOT have been a bloodline between the two men.

Thanks,old bean !

[Natalie Severn]

How,
I am interested in the candidacy of Thomas Cutbush myself----although I realise there are some gaps that need to be filled regarding the time between 1888 and 1891 and inconsistencies that need to be addressed such as the 1891 street stabbing scenarios and the 1888 onslaught on five women that resulted in their deaths.
However, returning to the uncle and nephew assertion of Macnaghten"s, what I find particularly odd about Supt Charles Cutbush"s relationship with Thomas [or not] is that it is Macnaghten who states this is so- why would he say this?
If this February 1894 report was for the Home Secretary -to have up his sleeve in case he was cross questioned in Parliament?- then it sounds to me like his assertion must have had a basis in fact ---of some kind or another.
Macnaghten"s report addresses the Sun Newspapers"s February 1894 allegations that Thomas Cutbush was the Ripper .But he flatly refuses to consider that possibility-sliding away instead to present "three" men who Macnaghten names as much "more likely than Cutbush" to have been the Ripper.Now whatever Macnaghten says then or later,had Abberline throwing it out of the window! "Yes ,Yes, he said wearily,I "ve heard it all about drowned doctors etc but there wasnt the slightest bit of proof connecting any of them with the murders." So why did Macnaghten raise these three red herrings?

OK-leaving that aside, there may NOT have been any proof about any of them ,BUT Thomas Cutbush was the only one amongst them who had recently[1891] been arrested and charged with knife stabbings of two women in the street,and his overall behaviour ultimately caused sufficient alarm to make them decide that he was "unfit to plead "and too dangerous to send even to Colney Hatch or Leavesdon. So they were clearly "very nervous" about Thomas Cutbush being left loose to go about his "mere proddings"----Macnaghten"s own phrase!

All of this just seems so at odds -especially Thomas being sent to Broadmoor for life-a prison hospital for the criminally insane,in this case for non- fatal attacks.
So returning to whether there was an "uncle" and "nephew" relationship---perhaps not,but why then did Macnaghten highlight this connection between his old colleague and Thomas Cutbush?

[Robert Linford]

Hi all

Well, Supt Cutbush and Thomas Taylor Cutbush were simply not brothers. They were born in the same year (if memory serves) but in different places to different parents. As to why Macnaghten should say that Supt Cutbush was Thomas's uncle, well, to use an American expression : go figure! I don't really like saying this, but I guess I have to : Macnaghten seems to me to be sloppy.

[A.P. Wolf]

I think the basic point to be even simpler than that, Robert.
Magnaghten had, I believe only two choices when he wrote his memo.
1) To deny that Thomas Cutbush was the Whitechapel Murderer.
2) To deny that Thomas Cutbush was related, in any form or manner, to Charles Henry Cutbush of his own office.
Because if they were not related then it didn't matter a jot what the Sun or anyone else claimed... but instead Macnaghten chose to confirm a relationship between the two men.
I like to think he was denying the bloody obvious, and confirming the impossible.

[Robert Linford]

AP, perhaps Thomas and Uncle Charles knew each other. I'm not sure about the scenario of Supt Cutbush popping round to Kate's with his Tranter fully loaded. Certainly he fell ill round about the time that Thomas had his spot of bother.

[Natalie Severn]

AP and Robert,
I know you are both looking into the newly accessible bits and pieces at Reading on Thomas Cutbush"s incarceration at Broadmoor and I was hoping to go myself but it may have to wait .I have been thinking its about time there was an article on Thomas Cutbush,and if neither of you object will write one myself ,as soon as I can get my material on him together.Meanwhile I will be grateful of any help from you two experts that I can get.
Best
Norma

[Robert Linford]

Hi Nats

Don't go to Reading - AP and I have already shelled out £72 buying the records. I still have to transcribe them. My typing is with one finger, and I slow down to snail pace when I'm doing something like an official record or a newspaper report, because I'm conscious of the need for total accuracy down to the last semi-colon. Maybe I should just do a first draft nice and easy, and then go back correcting all the typos etc.

We were talking about a suspects page article for Casebook the other day, and I said that I would do one if no one else wanted to do it. As far as I'm concerned, you're very welcome to do it.

Of course if I can be of any help, just let me know. One of the reasons for doing the article was to try and organize the material which is scattered around various threads. I myself find that I have difficulty locating things that I know I posted, for instance I know I posted details of Kate's brother and his family, but it could be on any of the Cutbush threads or maybe even somewhere else. Still, as I say, just let me know.

[A.P. Wolf]

Natalie, I think it important that you read the Broadmoor files, as they do cast some light in the shadows.
I'm not able to scan documents at the moment - and I think Robert to be in the same situation - but I'm quite sure there are at least twenty people on site who can do that, and then post that.
I'm quite sure that Stewart would have got his hands on these documents a long time before anyone else.
It would be relevant to see these documents on line.
Failing that I'll photocopy them and post 'em on to you.
I've only had a quick chuck through the files but many things strike home, and I was interested to see that Thomas was well aware of the dubious manner in which he had been disinherited of his properties in Whitechapel, and this was why he refused to see his mother and aunt for many a long year, and eventually attacked them... again.

[Robert Linford]

This is a link to the Casebook archives for 2003 to January 2006. I think that the posts from 2006 to around the start of 2007 may be now offline and archived on disc. Then most of 2007 was lost in the server crash, apart from some rescued bits.

www.casebook.org/forum/messages/board-topics.html (http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/board-topics.html)

[A.P. Wolf]

What with your one finger, Robert, and my one eye, I think we should call ourselves Seabiscuit.

[Robert Linford]

Hi AP

I remember when I was a kid and the racing was on TV, I said "This horse called Bar must be a rotten horse - always bottom of the betting."

[A.P. Wolf]

I know that Bar very well indeed, Robert.
Some of the warden's reports are very hard to read, and I struggle, so I'd be happy to see your transcripts when complete.
He was a very violent little so and so wasn't he?
The bits that I got - so far - where he is actually talking to himself in his cell at night, and threatening all manner of things is disturbing.
He had no audience.
And it looks like that they had to force feed him.
Not good.

[Robert Linford]

AP, I'm mastering them so if there's anything you particularly can't make out, just ask, giving page ref number.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Ap and Robert,
I will get back to you properly over the weekend.It seems to me that the article may have to wait until I can either go to Reading myself or receive the photocopied materials from AP.What I was thinking of was presenting a sort of synopsis of the case so far perhaps with an analysis of what can be gleaned of the mental condition of THomas Cutbush,which was surely that he suffered from paranoid delusions.Also some discussion of his known and rumoured criminal behaviour, before and after Broadmoor,and some comparison of this with that of others similarly incarcerated for life in Broadmoor, who may also have committed random street stabbings and other physical assaults.I am not sure I would be able to systematize the abundance of detailed information unearthed by you both,[in particular],especially for example with regards to his inheritance,even the implications of his father"s abandonment of him and his mother .The relationship there may have been with Supt Charles Cutbush interests me most with regards to the similarities in the illness they both [Thomas and Charles] suffered from-ie the paranoia--and the possibility that Supt Cutbush may have been presenting as an oddball at Scotland Yard latterly and may even have been scapegoated in some way -along with this "nephew" of his ! I am inclined to doubt it but so little of Macnaghten"s report,when analysed, makes sense about his "preferred suspects"-without the mention of any evidence on them.Also ,I cant really see a young man being sent to Broadmoor for life for "mere proddings" however unfit to plead he was, until we remember Thomas Cutbush bought a vicious looking Bowie Knife with a six inch blade to deliver these "mere proddings" ---- as Macnaghten called them!
Maybe I could start the ball rolling, sending what ever I write to Ap or Robert and you two could present it as a chapter or possibly an introduction?
At the present time I am pretty busy and I doubt I can get to Reading before March,though I can certainly try,I would love to see these files in the flesh!
Best Wishes to you both
Norma
ps re a Suspects based page on Cutbush for casebook, Robert,yes thats fine by me , but I would certainly prefer it if Ap and /or yourself would have input too.....

[Robert Linford]

Hi Nats

There's no hurry - I told Ally that if I did it, it wouldn't be immediately by any means.

Re Reading, the set up is if I remember £1 per photocopy. That's what they charged by post, so I assume it's what they'd charge you if you were there. I ordered the whole set, i.e. correspondence from JTR researchers as well, though that bit is peripheral. Then there are the case notes, which you won't be allowed to see if you go there, because the case book contains the notes of other patients and so the confidentiality question arises. Nor can it be photocopied, but they will transcribe it for £19. It fills two sides.

Photocopying of the bulk of the material is unavoidable, unless you've either got a photographic memory or are good at shorthand. I asked them if it would be OK for me to come and take digital photos and they said yes. But it's about £2 PER IMAGE.

So it's up to you if you want to go, but you don't need to.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Robert,
No I wont go unless its really needed.If Ap can send me some pertinent materials about the recorded behaviour ,delusions ,utterances,of Thomas Cutbush that should provide me with sufficient understanding of his symptoms,to have a fair idea of what was the matter.Can you give some thought to my proposal about a shared input? For obvious reasons I think Ap"s input should lead any joint effort, also each of us may have a slight variation on the theme...........but if Ap prefers that you and myself do such an article,that would be fine by me.
back to you later
Night Robert,
Norma

[Robert Linford]

Hi Nats

My main input I suppose would be on the genealogical side - I love census returns, the whole business with his dad's marriages, that sort of thing. AP is into broader criminology, comparison with other cases and so on, and you are interested in the mental health issues and so forth.

[A.P. Wolf]

As you say, Robert, we should be in no rush here.
There is much to digest in this newly released material, and then that must be related to what we already know.
Little things like his long standing acrimony towards Lord Grimthorpe have yet to be explained to my satisfaction.

[Natalie Severn]

Whenever you two are reasonably happy to begin,you can count on my support.I agree there seems to be a lot to take in.

With regards to Lord Grimthorpe,you may have read a post of mine quoting a writer named Frank Harris.Well this writer was a man about town in the London of the 1880"s and beyond.He is mentioned in The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literature as having been editor Vanity Fair,The Saturday Review,The Fortnightly Review [he also wrote for The London Evening News].The ODL says he wrote a book about Shakespeare and another on Shakespeare"s Women and a biography of Oscar Wilde .
I mention all this because he seems to have made a few enemies one way or another and his book entitled My Life and Loves by Frank Harris seems to have not only rocked the boat with quite a few establishment figures but also by describing his physical relationships with women with such naked candour went beyond what was acceptable and got his book banned, both here and in the States.
Certainly the Victorian establishment did not like his defence of Wilde and I rather think that it may have been at least in part that together with his disclosures about the Balfour"s,Lord Grimthorpe"s and about Lord Randolph Churchill that encouraged the decision to ban his book rather than just his descriptions of his bedroom antics.

Anyway,Lord Grimthorpe ,aka Sir Edmund Beckett, designer of Big Ben
gets a number of interesting mentions.
He was a successful lawyer,a strong protestant controversialist,against all ritualism in religion and wrote on architecture and mechanics as well as designing Big Ben.You two probably know all this but I didnt and I expect most people may not be aware of it.
The point that is made in the book about him being ready for a fight with anyone over protestantism reminded me very much of Supt Charles Cutbush since according to his orbituary ,he too was steadfastly behind the "protestant cause" indeed Uncle Charles was so paranoid about Catholics he apparently believed he was being poisoned by them,according to his orbituary.So the two men seem to have had a lot in common about this issue.No doubt they got on well with Robert Anderson , an Irishman and Protestant fundamentalist .Lord Grimthorpe got on famously with the mercurial Lord Randolph Churchill and Arthur Balfour as Lord Salisbury"s nephew and Irish Secretary was one of the gang too--- they all seem to have had a very " creative" time singing from the same orange tinted song sheet -in good preparation for the Special Commission of October 1888 no doubt.
Actually Lord Grimthorpe,according to Frank Harris, became one of his very closest friends when he underwent his conversion-Harris that is.I wonder,did Lord Grimthorpe befriend Thomas Cutbush at one time? Grimthorpe apparently went out of his way to help those who got religion [Protestant type] as well as the fact Harris claims he only became "bezzy" mates with Lord Grim when he got God!

Best
Norma

[A.P. Wolf]

Good thoughts, Natalie, I do believe that Thomas Cutbush and the Lord Grim once had a session together.
If I know my onions, when Thomas wrote to Lord Grimthorpe, he would have addressed him as 'Lord Grim Thought'.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Nats

Yes, there are several possible links between Lord Grim Thought, or Lord Grimey Twerp, etc, and Thomas, but the one that springs to my mind is the one mentioned by AP - the apparent meeting between him and Thomas as cited by Aunt Clara. This had to do with medicine and seems to have concerned Grimthorpe's championing of homeopathy. I wonder, if Thomas did believe himself syphilitic, whether he imagined that the womb of a prostitute might constitute a homeopathic remedy.

[A.P. Wolf]

Of course he would, Robert, and then stabbed them in the bum to avoid the quim.

[Natalie Severn]

Some r[b]um goings on in Grim"s neck of the woods, then!