Jack The Curious

[How Brown]

Today I was talking with Nina about the threads we have currently doing brisk business on psychotics and whether serial killers could stop.

We know they have and can and will continue to stop...according to the stimuli which coerces them to do so.

As to the psychotics:

The strangest thought occurred to both of us virtually at the same time when exchanging views at work today....and that was whether the Ripper simply was curious to see what women/people looked like inside.

No "need" of organs...no "need" of posing the bodies to send some sort of message....no "need" or desire to 'shake up the establishment" or surrounding area....no "graffiti" ( Gulp!)....no "need" or even the ability to write letters bragging on their deeds....no concerns other than having the marbles to pull off a series of murders to satiate a curiosity.

...just a plain old killer who wanted to know what people looked like inside.

Its as banal...as basic as they come....but could it be a possibility?

[Celesta]

Is this your way of saying he couldn't afford anatomy classes? :)

Sorry...I don't mean to make light of the topic. I've wondered a couple of times about this.

If it were the case, How, would he arrange it so he would have better visibility? I know this has been through the circular argument process a thousand times. I don't want to launch one of those, but wouldn't light be a factor?

I guess a premise here might be that he chose his victims because, in his mind, they were about the least of the least, and therefore expendable as sacrifices to his curiosity?

I have looked at the picture of MJK and studied that thigh bone stripped of all its meat and wondered what the purpose of completely denuding the bone was. It doesn't make much sense. The organs, the other parts, but the thigh bone? Anyway, the level of dismantling he conducted on her could support an argument that he was doing it, at least partly, out of curiosity.

[How Brown]

Cellie:

This issue of lighting at the scenes of the Chapman & Eddowes murders,while a legitimate contention towards the notion that the Ripper was intent on procuring organs ( which I lean towards,but only brought up this counter-argument on the thread to see what others think)...as in "Why operate there where there was insufficient light?" obscures the fact that the killer could see sufficiently to at least do what he did,not perhaps all he wanted to do. Thats the rub...was he finished? We don't know. Something at every outdoor murder site may have,could have forced him to cease at that point on each victim.

I for one do not think the Ripper was as stealthy as some do...nor do I think he would have let Cadosch live had he been approached. I think he was prepared with sufficent armaments to handle any nosey interlopers. However, if something did spook him,we will never know and I suppose its probably more likely that he was finished.

Your comment about MJK's deboned thigh bone also made me wonder ( Nina and I mentioned this to each other too...small world) about the majority opinion ( I am one of them too and again...only bring this up to get counterpoints) that MJK was a Ripper victim. Its an unnecessary act in a sense and unlike the other two total mutilations,no known organs were taken. The same posing ( I do not think her head was posed) of the organs under her as in the Eddowes murder...but no organs taken.

It would be bizarre to some of us I think if the Ripper was just curious wouldn't it?

[Gumshoe]

Your comment about MJK's deboned thigh bone also made me wonder


A deboned thigh bone, Mishter Brown? That's like saying that Jack used a bladeless knife without a handle. A denuded thigh bone, perhaps?

[How Brown]

Hey Gumballs...if I said deboned,I meant....denuded.:tape:

Thanks for the erection to my mistake.

[Celesta]

Well, okay, you have a point. Yes, bizarre, but I think he intended to be bizarre, no matter what. Was he finished? I don't know. I agree that this light business has been beaten to death. I see your point about Kelly, but then it was my point, too! :becky: So bizarre? Yes, intentionally so.

[How Brown]

Cellie:

All my usual long winded posts get to some "point" at some point.

The reason I was perspired to set up this thread was that I had just read somewhere about someone who killed a person just to see their inside goodies. I cannot remember the source....but in any event, it was perspirational.

[Celesta]

How,

You must have a helluva hankie!

Actually, now, that you mention it, I remember something like that, too. Now, I will be trying to remember the source for the rest of the day. :lol:

[A.P. Wolf]

Simple is always best, How.
One imagines today a young man who has spent his entire childhood collecting model aircraft, and studying them in books, but with no training whatsoever, what a mess he would make of landing a Hercules.

[How Brown]

Cellie & A.P.

I used to lean completely towards the perception or concept that the Ripper approached the women with the proposition to engage in coitus and then murdered them. I used to.

Then I became curious about the idea regarding a "blitz" style killier. I think...and this is just my opinion...that the Ripper could concievably have blitzed Nichols,Eddowes,....someone did assault Stride openly and I think he killed her immediately following the assault...and possibly Chapman. Kelly's murder is a tough nut to crack if one wanted to percieve a blitz killing....

Now, I am interested in the blitzing m.o. along with the possibility of him simply being curious as to what makes women tick.

I also believe he cannibalized the organs....having spent X amount of time on taking them tends to make me think he wouldn't give them up so quickly...like simply tossing them to a dog ( pardon the visual,ladies ) or throwing them into a trash receptacle. Yet, since the Ripper may have not been a trophy seeker ( none taken in Millers Court or with Nichols...or Stride) who knows ,eh?
If that could have occurred...then my position on Tabram would be out of order, since there doesn't seem to have been the same signature in slicing the abdomen. Maybe he didn't know how to go about it, if Tabram had slumped to a point where he couldn't move her....and then proceeded with the 30 second ( at least ) onslaught outta frustration..

[Celesta]

How,

Blitz killer, as in women thrown to the ground and eventually having their throats cut? As in possibly Liz Stride, Susan Ward, and possibly Frances Coles?

[How Brown]

Cellie:

As in possibly Nichols and Eddowes....Chapman being the Ubangi in the fuel supply for that theory to work.

What do you think of it?

[Celesta]

You don't think Cadosch represented a potential threat because Jack could deal with him. The fact that it was already getting light and that people, not just Cadosch, were stirring made Jack more stealthy than he might have been otherwise. He accomplished what he wanted and moved out before he could be caught. If you look at it this way and not from the point of view of where she was killed then why is Annie necessarily the "Ubangi"?

Do you remember how old Albert Cadosch was? I've been looking through my books here, and I haven't found one yet that gives his age. I desperately need an A to Z but they are so expensive.

When you mentioned "blitz" I thought of Liz Stride and her noisy attacker. Sarah ward was attacked in a similar way. The coroner thought that Coles had been knocked to her knees. These fall into the same box, so to speak, from this aspect. They could just be situations in which he didn't have the chance to 'satisfy his curiosity.'

[How Brown]

Cellie:

Cadosch could have presented a threat if he started yelling at the top of his lungs or did something to get others attention to what was going on in 29. I just feel that the Ripper would have confronted Cadosh instead of slithering away like I feel many people do.

I think that after the Ripper began mutilating Chapman, that this was the first time he had been that close to being seen in the act of murder. In the Stride murder...assuming that the BSMan was her killer and I for one do...he was not in the act of murder,obviously, but did commit murder shortly after the spotting by Schwartz.

The reason I lean toward Chapman's murder being the fly in the ointment is because in that case we have a witness who claimed to have seen them both near 29 in the midst of some dialogue. This doesn't qualify to be considered a "blitzing" style of murder in the sense that I envision since its highly likely that Mrs. Long did see them just prior to Annie's death.

Stride's murder scene...where her killer( to me) lost his temper and despite being seen,carried out the murder he had intended to in the first place...yet doesn't complete the intended mutilation for one reason or the other. Its similar to a blitzing in that there's no small talk...no pre-game warmup,so to speak,between the participants....just blood and death shortly afterwards.

So...and this is just my feeling at this point in time...that the perception of these women being absolutely in the act of solicitation....maybe one or two were...maybe just one...and maybe they all were...should be left open to debate.

Yes,Nichols needed money and she was not out at 12 midnight begging for dosh or busking on the streets that late. She may have been out with the intent of solicitation,just as likely as she may have been sleeping on the sidewalk on Bucks Row and just as likely as she may have been blitzed from out of the dark by the Ripper. I see no one thing which pushes me in any specific direction to assume one over the other.

Stride may very well have been waiting for one specific individual,since she was seen to turn away at least one individual's advances. Thats what I think happened in her case. I think the Ripper approached her to take her inside the Yard...she balked...he flipped...he tosses her down...he waits for her to get up...drags her into the Yard and whacks her. A blitzing of sorts.

Eddowes may very well have simply gone to Mitre Square since it was known as one of the many trolling places for clients and prosses. There's no guarantee that Eddowes & The Ripper were seen by Lawende. In the instance that Lawende saw a woman and a man...the women of the time looked similar in the dark and in the daytime. Take a photo or look at old reels of film with women of that period and then afterwards try to remember one distinguishing feature of one woman. I tried and its hard since they all dressed pretty much alike. By the way,Lawende did not mention an apron, but a black bonnet and black jacket. I'd think the apron would stand out in my mind.

I suppose "blitz" could mean more than one thing to a number of people,Cellie. I just don't know what to make of the attack on Tabram,which had to take 30 seconds and upwards...without any audible noise emanating from Tabram....Nichols killed without a prior sighting with a man...Chapman being a "problem" for this theory....Stride and Nichols as previously mentioned being possibly "blitz" type killings.

Back to you,Cellie....I have to go for now.

[Sam Flynn]

Do you remember how old Albert Cadosch was? He'd have been 28 or 29 years old in 1888, Cel. He was born in Paris around 1860.

Albert's sons were later to join the British Army. I've got copies of their service records somewhere...

[Celesta]

[
I see. I was concentrating on what was going on in the backyard. Instead of a blitz killer, Long saw a quietly talking couple. Very different from what Schwartz saw. A blitz killer would likely have confronted Albert, instead of running the other way, had Albert investigated what he heard. The guy who attacked Liz certainly accosted more than one person in a very short time.

You've got a good point here with Lawende and the apron. I have always visualized this as white, probably incorrectly. A light colored apron would have stood out more than any other article of her clothing. It's also very true about women's clothing. Women of that era looked as anonymous as Moslem women do today, in terms of their clothing being so alike.

As for Tabram, I think he bonked her on the head. Doesn't rule out anything.

Best,

Cel

[Celesta]

Bless you, Sam. I was going through everything I had and looking through some of the dissertations, too.

28 or 29 is about what I thought.

Thanks!

[Sam Flynn]

Not such an illustrious military career! The following appear on Fred's record between 1902 and 1904 (he'd enlisted giving his trade as "postman").

Squadron, Troop, Battery and Company Defaulter Book

Driver FRED ALBERT CADOSCH (Army Service Corps)

Absent from tattoo till 10:00 PM.
Absent from tatoo till 11:45 AM the 20th inst.
Improperly dressed in New Road (Woolwich) about 10PM when on Theatre Leave.
Absent from tatoo till 10:15 PM.
Absent from tatoo till 12:10 AM the 20th inst.
Having a light on in 77 Barack Room after lights-out.
Absent from Church Parade at 09:30 AM till found in his barrack room at 10AM.
Behaving in a disorderly manner in the streets (reported by police constable).
Committing a nuisance in barracks about 8:45 PM.
When ordered to clean windows did not do so.
Absent from battallion till 10:05 PM.
Absent off pass from 12 midnight until 05:30 AM.
Not going to the stables when ordered.
Gambling in latrine.
Dirty gloves when parading for duty.
Not cleaning his harness properly for inspection.
Taking horse (Army No. 34029) out of the stables without permission and galoping [sic.] about the barracks.
Using obscene language outside the stables during the stable hour.
Absent from tattoo till 08:20AM 13-4-04
Absent from tatoo til 10:15 PM.
Absent from tatoo till 11:30 PM.
Drunk [underlined!] & creating a disturbance in camp about 09:45 PM.
Absent from tatoo till 10:30 PM.

[Sam Flynn]

HERBERT CADOSCH (Army Service Corps)

Absent from tatoo till 10:15 AM. Drunk on returning to Barracks.
Absent from tatoo after being refused a pass till 12:05 PM.Drunk returning to Barracks about 11:15 AM.
Bringing liquor into Barracks contrary to Orders.
Creating a disturbance in the Guard Room.
21st March 1908 - Awaiting trial. Convicted of (1) Neglect to obey orders for drivers when on duty; (2) Using threatening language to his superior officer. Forfeit 1 G.B. Badge. In detention.

[How Brown]

These records on Cadosch are much appreciated Sam. Thank you.

Cadosch claimed to be a postman, but unless I am wrong he was a carpenter or in that field in some form,wasn't he,Sam?

[Sam Flynn]

These records on Cadosch are much appreciated Sam. Thank you. Cadosch claimed to be a postman, but unless I am wrong he was a carpenter or in that field in some form,wasn't he,Sam?Albert senior was indeed in that field, How - the postman was [Frederick] Albert junior. Frederick and his brother Herbert were born in Bethnal Green to "our" Albert, in 1884 and 1886 respectively. The family moved from Spitalfields to settle in Colchester, Essex, sometime between 1888 and 1890. "Our" Albert Cadosch had three daughters by his wife, Alice, as well as the aforementioned sons.

[Natalie Severn]

I have always had doubts that Mrs Long saw Annie Chapman talking to the ripper.The house was half way up Hanbury Street between Brick Lane and Commercial Street.The ripper would have heard Mrs Long"s approach and would have been unlikely to have stood around being "seen".He would have been more likely to have been waiting in hiding and silent,knife ready.Thats my opinion .
Its also why I dont buy Lawende"s man as the Ripper.The Ripper would have been either stalking or in hiding,not standing with the possibility of being "noticed" by three men in Duke Street or by Inspector Halse who was also heading For Duke Street and Mitre Square.The murder could have been going on while this other "Lawende" couple were sorting a transaction in the opposite corner of the square where Kate had just taken the client she had just met at the corner of Aldgate and Mitre Street.Both spots---Church Passage and Mitre Street/Aldgate were popular spots for "business" deals.
The most curious one is the Berner St one because Schwartz claimed to have seen the broad-shouldered man knock Liz to the ground.Ofcourse this was par for the course for a woman standing outside a club soliciting.The murder could still have been done by someone still hidden and waiting.

[Celesta]

Also, we need to put Albert's and family's info into a thread under Cadosch in the witness section, so it will be there when we need it.