MJK AKA Mary Rees

[Peter Young]

If Mary took the surname of her employers at the age of 16 (John & 1st Mrs Rees) then a possible marriage could be:
John DAVIES, Mary Louisa REES Sep 1879 Carmarthen 11a 863
Death of hubby could be 3 yrs later:
John DAVIES 20 Sep 1882 Carmarthen
with birth of Daur:
Agnes Mary DAVIES Mar 1881 Carmarthen 11a 813
nicely sandwiched inbetween
http://forum.casebook.org/images/misc/progress.gif

[A.P. Wolf]

If you peel your onion, you'll find that I speculated many years ago that Mary Kelly was indeed Mary Rees, and died for that.

[How Brown]

Dear A.P.:

I am sure many people here weren't around back in 1899 like you or I...so they may not have known what Mr. Young provided.

Thanks Peter ! Thanks for bringing this up for discussion and please continue with any further commentary.

A.P...I'm gonna bite your toches on the program this Sunday !!!:kiss:

[Peter Young]

1888 John Rees on trial...not guilty
His wife gets 10 years, Louisa Wilson 5 yrs
Mary Jane supposedly married a collier.
Witness called Mary Jane COLLIER.
Another name change?
Needs looking into...
Keep Digging,
Regards How,
Peter

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Peter and How
I'm not sure whether the original thread still exists or not?
And I'm really not up to scratch on this without going back over the material I assembled at the time, but I was left with the overwhelming feeling that Mary Kelly and Mary Rees were well acquainted with one another, and that Mary Kelly had once lodged and worked for the evil Rees family.

No worries for Sunday night, How, I'm bringing a baseball bat and a bottle of Thai whisky. You do get a choice... either ya drink from my bottle or ya meet my bat.

[Debra Arif]

Peter, AP,
I'm confused, sorry.
Are you talking about Mary Jane Rees, the abortionist?
Wasn't it established that the name of the girl who actually worked for John Rees and his first wife was Aby Kelly, and that all the press stories of investigations to find Mary Jane Kelly's family in Llanelly and that she worked for the Rees's, relate to the same Abi Kelly, i.e. that she was the daughter of a marine store dealer etc.
Paul Begg posted something to that effect on one of the threads around here.

....sorry if you talking about someone else.

[ferret]

Hi Debs-
Gawd there's more Davies, Davis etc in Llanelli than you can shake a stick at ( or any other form of threatening item!)

Of course Rees is a very common name in South Wales - as is Jones,Thomas,Edwards, Williams (He he Sorry Gareth!) et al.
As to Kelly as a name- just been talking to hubby who was born and brought up in the Swansea area (His mother was German and his father from the West Country!) - he said that there were thousands of Irish workers came in to work in the tin mines /iron works- not only Irish but from the West Country in England and from Germany and most of Europe- a lot of people gravitated there to the ports etc -as being a great place to find employment

Nuttin unusual about Kelly the name - apart from THAT one!!! ((Kelly!! - No way!!!))

As a by the by the Neil------------ Kinnock--not a Welsh name at all...Irish?

Suz xx

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Debs, I remember that now, the marine store etc.
But was I convinced?
I'll 'ave to read the whole thread again to find out.

[Sam Flynn]

As a by the by the Neil------------ Kinnock--not a Welsh name at all...Irish?
Scottish.

Apparently, it comes from the Gaelic ceann (head) and eidigh (hard, or "iron helmet"). "Neil" means "champion".

So there you have it: "Neil Kinnock" = "Champion helmet-head".

[ferret]

Smartass!!! :) :) :) xxxxxxxxxxx

[Peter Young]

[quote=Debra A;55397]Peter, AP,
I'm confused, sorry.
Are you talking about Mary Jane Rees, the abortionist?/quote]

No, her predecessor...

>Wasn't it established that the name of the girl >who actually worked for John Rees and his >first wife was Aby Kelly

No, not established, just the drunken ramblings of a club landlady...
> and that all the press stories of investigations >to find Mary Jane Kelly's family in Llanelly and >that she worked for the Rees's, relate to the >same Abi Kelly, i.e. that she was the daughter >of a marine store dealer etc.

Smoke & mirrors, Mary related to Marine Store Dealer extended families was at least 8 yrs too old...

>Paul Begg posted something to that effect on >one of the threads around here.
>....sorry if you talking about someone else.

I think a reread of the "Welsh Connection" & "Rees" threads on Casebook would be advisable...

Best Regards,
Peter

[Debra Arif]

I have read that thread thanks, Peter.
John Rees stated a Mary Kelly, daughter of a marine store dealer in Llanelli worked for him and she frequented the Unity Inn.
Landlady of the Unity Inn says the girl's name was Abbi Kelly not Mary.
Census entries shows that an Abbi Kelly was the daughter of a marine store dealer in Llanelli...it's just a huge coincidence then?

Have you read the Mary Jane Rees thread here on the forums from 2008?

[Peter Young]

I have read that thread thanks, Peter.
John Rees stated a Mary Kelly, daughter of a marine store dealer in Llanelli worked for him and she frequented the Unity Inn.
Landlady of the Unity Inn says the girl's name was Abbi Kelly not Mary.
Census entries shows that an Abbi Kelly was the daughter of a marine store dealer in Llanelli...it's just a huge coincidence then?

Have you read the Mary Jane Rees thread here on the forums from 2008?,,,Yes

No, John REES said the "deceased MJK" worked for him previously.
The landlady said she did not have a "regular visitor called MJK", only an Abi Kelly, not the same thing...
The census returns for both families at 38 & 39 Halket St, Llandaff are common knowledge as well as Cardiff Union School, having been posted on both forums.The only named Marys were either 8/9 yrs too old or too young.
Mary Jane COLLIER (from Treorchy...) stated under oath that she had occasion to visit Mrs REES before, at 28 Hamilton St, Cardiff...

[Sam Flynn]

The census returns for both families at 38 & 39 Halket St, Llandaff are common knowledge as well as Cardiff Union School, having been posted on both forums.The only named Marys were either 8/9 yrs too old or too young.
Unfortunately, Peter, it's not just Mary Kelly's name that's a problem - her true age is a mystery, too. We only have Barnett to go by, and he wasn't exactly sure of it either. If Kelly were indeed 32 when they met, but told him she was 24, he'd have been none the wiser, and nor would we.

[Peter Young]

Unfortunately, Peter, it's not just Mary Kelly's name that's a problem - her true age is a mystery, too. We only have Barnett to go by, and he wasn't exactly sure of it either. If Kelly were indeed 32 when they met, but told him she was 24, he'd have been none the wiser, and nor would we.
Barnett was living in a fantasy world Sam, regularly giving her money, disappearing when she had visitors, I think she twisted him round her little...as women of a certain type were wont to do.
From all newspaper reports and testimonies by witnesses, concensus of opinion was 25-30 yrs of age.
It seems toms of this era were wont to use any nom-de-plume they fancied, especially when getting banged up!!:banghead:
Peter

[A.P. Wolf]

Keep banging your head, Peter.
I enjoy your feisty approach and combatative attitude.
And I, despite census results, still believe that there is a definite link between Mary Kelly and Mary Rees.

[Peter Young]

Why did Mary Rees's father go to Neath every Thursday?
Why did Mary Hopkins send for Mary Evans to lay out the body the day before the victim died?
What was John Rees's occupation other than agent or traveller?
Did Mary Jane Florence Hopkins marry John Rees before or after her father died?
Peter.

[Peter Young]

And I, despite census results, still believe that there is a definite link between Mary Kelly and Mary Rees.
Yes AP so do I.
After 9 years genealogical research, I have found census returns are notorious for being mistranscribed, at least with 1911 we can misread them ourselves from the actual household returns.
Ages at death are the worst, informants being the worst guessers.
There is no end to our constant search ...
Regards,
Peter.

[Sam Flynn]

Why did Mary Rees's father go to Neath every Thursday?
Darn! One of the few "Ripper" letters to have been sent from Wales was from the Falcon Hotel in Neath, but it was dated the 3rd November 1888... a Saturday :(

[Debra Arif]

,,,Yes

No, John REES said the "deceased MJK" worked for him previously.
The landlady said she did not have a "regular visitor called MJK", only an Abi Kelly, not the same thing...
The census returns for both families at 38 & 39 Halket St, Llandaff are common knowledge as well as Cardiff Union School, having been posted on both forums.The only named Marys were either 8/9 yrs too old or too young.
Mary Jane COLLIER (from Treorchy...) stated under oath that she had occasion to visit Mrs REES before, at 28 Hamilton St, Cardiff...

According to the Swansea reporter of the Cardiff Western mail Nov 13 1888;
I have this direct from Mr. Rees himself. Mr. Rees says that Kelly was born at Llanelly, and not Limerick. Her father was a marine store dealer... (In later reports Rees says he employed Kelly at Llanelly.
...She left his service and went to Swansea where she remained for some time. She will probably be remembered at the Unity, which she used to frequent.

Later, the landlady of the Unity remembers an Abi Kelly frequenting the place, and it just so turns out that Abi Kelly was born in LLanelly and her father was a marine store dealer in the town.

[Peter Young]

Darn! One of the few "Ripper" letters to have been sent from Wales was from the Falcon Hotel in Neath, but it was dated the 3rd November 1888... a Saturday :(Sam, Do you have access to a presentable facsimile of said missive?

[A.P. Wolf]

More like pigeon post than falcon, Sam, as the letter you speak of originally had the date of October 27th on it.
Were that a Thursday, Sam?

[Sam Flynn]

More like pigeon post than falcon, Sam, as the letter you speak of originally had the date of October 27th on it.
Were that a Thursday, Sam?
Indeed it did, AP - I just looked up the photo in Evans/Skinner's "Letters From Hell". Malheureusement, October 27th 1888 was also a Saturday!

Peter, you'll find a reproduction of the letter in the "LFH" book mentioned above, facing page 106 (hardback edition). Whilst it was sent from Neath, and mentions the Falcon Hotel, I'm not sure it was sent from said hotel (I should have checked first). For info, the letter is written on cheap paper (lined, with two red margins, ledger-like) and in not in an educated hand.

[A.P. Wolf]

Malheureusement.
Indeed, Sam, and your Italics go forth before you.
So he went to the Falcon on Thursday, got pissed as a fart, gave the letter to a barmaid to post, she met George and didn't wake up till Saturday, and then posted the letter, crossing out the original date.
I better 'ave a rum.

[Peter Young]

According to the Swansea reporter of the Cardiff Western mail Nov 13 1888;
Mr. Rees says that Kelly was born at Llanelly, and not Limerick.
her father was a marine store dealer in the town.
If MJK was as economical with the truth as she was later with Joe Barnett she probably spun her alleged lover a line to keep him in the dark or he intentionally misled reporters to hide his own past connections with her.
"marine store dealer" otherwise scrap metal dealer or rag n bone man, occupation of many in Cardiff, Carmarthen & Swansea, many also named Kelly.

[Sam Flynn]

So he went to the Falcon on Thursday, got pissed as a fart, gave the letter to a barmaid to post, she met George and didn't wake up till Saturday, and then posted the letter, crossing out the original date.Correction - he waited several weeks until the first Saturday in November, crossed out the original date, and posted it then.
I better 'ave a rum.... you'd better 'ave one for me, too :)

[Debra Arif]

If MJK was as economical with the truth as she was later with Joe Barnett she probably spun her alleged lover a line to keep him in the dark or he intentionally misled reporters to hide his own past connections with her.
"marine store dealer" otherwise scrap metal dealer or rag n bone man, occupation of many in Cardiff, Carmarthen & Swansea, many also named Kelly.


Now I must join you in the head banging Peter :banghead:
Good luck with your research anyhow.

[Sam Flynn]

"marine store dealer" otherwise scrap metal dealer...... for which read, "foreman in iron works". If so, it's only a titchy kind of a lie - like claiming your rat-catcher dad was an "environmental health officer" ;)

[Peter Young]

Malheureusement.
I better 'ave a rum.
Best 'ave possers.
Only skates need apply, 'ave 1 fer me Cap'n...

[Peter Young]

Now I must join you in the head banging Peter :banghead:
Good luck with your research anyhow.
Cheers Deb, ta 4 yer telling inquisitiveness...
Peter.

[A.P. Wolf]

Naughty, Sam, none of us know who posted the letter, no more than we know who writ it.
But you do get a glass of rum.
Mount Gay, so rejoice.

[A.P. Wolf]

One must remain objective despite the rum and 'lime'.
The letter that Sam refers to is the only one I have seen so far where the writer actually claims that he is helping the police in their search for the killer.
And then Mary Rees pops up a few days later for carving up women with a knife?
JtR where are you?

[Peter Young]

He's where the birds can't shit on 'im