Hammersmith Nude Murders-Jack the Stripper

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi everyone

I hope you don’t mind if I start by starting a new thread. I just feel more comfortable with somewhere to put my thoughts on the subject.

I’ve been helping Neil Melkin with his book and theories, which have certainly interested me.

I have long been convinced that Mungo Ireland was involved in these murders, and a startling revelation by Neil convinced me that he was on to something interesting with his Evans connection.

There's going to be lots of new stuff to discuss over the coming year. So I thought I’d set up a thread. Especially as I noticed Stan and AP on the boards. Hi guys :)

If there already is a thread and I haven’t found it yet, my apology.

Pirate Jeff

[Stan Reid]

Hi Jeff,

Which Evans are we talking about here? Has anyone ever found a photo of Figg and/or Ireland?

Does anyone remember the case when it was actually occurring? I do, although the coverage here in the States was pretty slim. Of course, the JtR "tie-in" was played up some in the U.S. news.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Stan

There is a photo of Elizabeth Figg (Ann Philips) in the front of 'Jack of Jumps' its not a great photo so I imagine its a police ID photo.

I think this is something Neils been working on and there's going to be new shots he's been digging up.

Did I say Evans? I'm going mad I ment Jones.

http://www.surreyherald.co.uk/surrey-news/news-surrey/2009/02/20/weybridge-s-link-to-jack-the-stripper-case-86289-22974343/

Heres a recent news paper article on Neil's current journey. If he can prove a link between Jones and Ireland then it might explain why David Seabrook dismissed Ireland as a suspect because he was in Scotland when O'Hara's body was dumped.

I think Neil's book aims to connect Ireland , Jones and some of the victims to the same address. Hopefully haven't given to much away. :nono:

Pirate Jeff

PS more on David seabrooks death if anyone is interested http://stewarthomesociety.org/blog/?tag=jack-the-stripper

[dougie]

Jeff,
Welcome to you first.
Ive had a passing interest over the years in this issue,but no great knowledge ...my question is ....The security guard who according to at least one author was the polices main suspect (and committed suicide) was his name ever divulged? and have you ,or anyone else delved deeper into that guys history?
regards

[Jeff Leahy]

Blimmey Dougie you do ask some questions that will take some answering.

But firstly, well met my old friend. I trust life has been treating you well. And I’m genuinely please you are here.

The security Guard? Yes we know who the security guard was.

He is named Big John in Brian OConnell's ‘Found dead and naked’ and Mungo Ireland in David Seabrookes book ‘Jack of Jumps’ James Morton also gives information in ‘Fighters’. Part of the trouble is all three books seem to contradict each other about Ireland….OConnell suggests he was an ex-police officer and in the army.

Seabrooke gives us very little about his background, dismissing him as a suspect because he was in Scotland when the last body was dumped?

Milkins new theory ties Ireland to a serial killer called Jones. They were living in the same street in Putney 1964. Which is interesting especially if he can prove a connection to any of the victims.

Unfortunately you cant get at Irelands army records. His wife and daughter lived in the same street until recently but had to move about the same time Seabrooks book was released.

Well there you go. It’s a little simple but I haven’t got time to go into more now.

And I have some jobs to do for Neil.

Catch you soon Dougie

Yours Jeff

[Stan Reid]

Thanks Jeff. I thought for a spell there you were bringing Gwynne Evans into the game. All I could think was that he had a pretty good alibi for the last few murders having been hanged in August of 1964.:)

Since this guy and the Boston Strangler were contemporaries, I wonder if they followed each others cases and perhaps even engaged in a little "friendly" competition.

Setting aside Archibald, who I don't really consider under suspicion, I'm about equally unconvinced regarding the guilt of any of the prominent suspects.

[A.P. Wolf]

Well, as you know, Jeff, I have very different, and quite evidential, ideas about these murders, but all power to you for coming over here and pursuing yours.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi AP

Yes I could just say the Captain is barking up the wrong tree and don’t listen to him. But that would be bollocks and we both know that. Besides that’s why I have bailed ship on casebook.

Personally why I don’t agree with your theory, as you probably do not agree with mine, I found your incite on the period and characters of the period absolutely fascinating. Someone appeared on casebook asking about Vicky Martin? I directed her in your direction for information, I hope you do not mind but I guessed you would know more about her than I.

So AP if we can agree to differ on the identity of the killer, I would very much like your knowledge and help on this thread. I’ve always wanted to get more detail on the case going and I don’t see why having different views about, who done it, should make a difference about the facts concerning the murders and victims. Its probably even healthy to have people viewing from different perspectives.

Your input, help advice and views on this case would certain be much appreciated. I may not agree with you but that is not to say I did not find your theories fascinating. I do and did.

From the other Pirate…my captain my captain

Jeff

PS. There is hopefully some interesting new photos of crime scene on the way. I will give a commitment to stick to facts about case. P

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Dougie

Thought you might be interested in this:

I can't sick it any longer. It may be my fault but not all of it. I'm sorry Harry is a burden to you. Give my love to the kid. Farwell, Jock. PS. To save you and the police looking for me I'll be in the garage.


Thats the note left by Mungo Ireland. Known as Jock.

Lets make this thread happen. Pirate Jeff

PS Howard if you catch this, can we invite Neil Milkens to contribute? :faint::faint::faint:

[Howard Brown]

Jeff:

You most certainly can ask others to contribute to the thread.

Let me know if your friend wants to register...all he has to do is send me an email.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Jeff
I think my idea of a group of gangsters and pimps murdering prostitutes and throwing them into rivers etc. was fairly roundly condemned by one and all the last time around, so I should like you to consider the following case as a prudent reminder that such things do indeed happen:
Toulouse officials ordered murder, says serial killer

Paul Webster
Tuesday June 3, 2003
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)

France's most notorious serial killer has claimed that he murdered at least one victim on the orders of highly placed personalities in Toulouse because of a blackmail threat linked to sadomasochistic orgies involving politicians, judges and police.

Dominique Baudis, the city's former mayor and current head of the Conseil Suprieur de l'Audiovisuel, an independent broadcasting watchdog, said through a lawyer yesterday that he was among four people named by the murderer, Patrice Algre, who is serving a life sentence for five killings, involving extreme cruelty, and six rapes.
Mr Baudis's lawyer, Francis Szpiner, dismissed Algre's claim that the former mayor took part in orgies and "was involved in the organisation of a murder".
But his client, a former television presenter and newsreader, wanted to be interrogated so that he could "regain his honour", claiming that he was a victim of a political conspiracy.
The affair is linked to evidence uncovered during the past two years by a special homicide squad investigating the disappearance of 115 women and girls in the Toulouse region over 12 years. Most were girls who had run away from home.
Suspicion that Algre had committed crimes other than those for which he was jailed in 1997 led to an inquiry by examining magistrates into "acts of torture and barbarity, pimping and rapes of under-age girls" that could lead to a number of prosecutions.
Magistrates, politicians, policemen, journalists and businessmen are due to be questioned as part of the inquiry.
Among the fallout from the affair in France's fourth biggest city was the sacking last week of Jean Volff, the prosecutor-general. He was one of a number of court officials in Toulouse who have been forced to explain their alleged knowledge of the affair.
One judge has admitted to drinking with Algre and another has said that there was "some truth" in evidence from two former prostitutes of an official cover-up of Algre's crimes.
Algre, a policeman's son, organised the city's prostitution business, providing under-age girls for sadomasochistic orgies at a courthouse in the city and at a chateau owned by the town council.
In a letter from his cell sent to TV presenter Karl Zero at the weekend, Algre said that the former prostitutes, known as Patricia and Fanny, were telling the truth about the murders of two other prostitutes which they had witnessed but which he had previously denied.
One of the dead women had been strangled by him and thrown into a lake for refusing to join in orgies. He had strangled the other while raping her in a hotel in the city centre because she wanted to report the killing.
A vice squad detective allegedly assured Algre, who worked in the police canteen, that the murder would be classified as suicide.
In his letter, Algre also admitted killing Claude Martinez, a male prostitute, who filmed orgies with a hidden camera and wanted to blackmail those who had taken part.
Algre said that during a meeting in a mansion in Toulouse he had been ordered to "shut up Martinez" by "people who might have been filmed" during group sex in which "everyone sniffed coke as hard as they could".
"I can imagine that the affair will be stifled because all the people implicated in the case are people with power," he wrote in the letter after naming Mr Baudis.
The letter was written after Algre met a magistrate to give details of unsolved crimes. Only part of the four-page document has been published but, according to a source who has read all of it, Algre's confession "contains precise details about the places, situations and personalities involved in the orgies".

[dougie]

Hi Dougie

Thought you might be interested in this:

I can't sick it any longer. It may be my fault but not all of it. I'm sorry Harry is a burden to you. Give my love to the kid. Farwell, Jock. PS. To save you and the police looking for me I'll be in the garage.


Thats the note left by Mungo Ireland. Known as Jock.

Lets make this thread happen. Pirate Jeff

PS Howard if you catch this, can we invite Neil Milkens to contribute? :faint::faint::faint:
JEFF
I guess one could read as much ,or as little ,as one wanted into that suicide note.....Doesnt really seem to me to indicate he was topping himself because of any crimes he had committed...... The "save the police looking for me" quote seems almost faintly humourous.....Who was Harry by the way?....Think Ill look at this case a bit more closely...been years since I read about it.
regards

[Stan Reid]

Did Ireland actually work at Heron for any significant period?

[Jeff Leahy]

I don’t think the word ‘Condemned’ would be fair. I cant speak for anyone else but the idea of a lone serial killer always seemed to make more sense to me.

That said I think, as we know Ireland was in Scotland when O’Hara’s body was dumped the idea of Ireland being a lone serial killer is out of the door. I’ve always wondered if Rose and Fred West were NOT acting alone?

Besides whether or not people agree with your theory AP no one is doubting your knowledge of the period. Certainly many of the points you raised regarding Rackman, Ellis and the perfumo affair seemed most interesting. Organized crime of this time was most interesting and Hannah Tailford certainly had her knickers pushed in her mouth, which doesn’t sound like suicide to me?

Hi Dougie: Re: the note. NO it doesn’t make much sense at all, a bit like the Goulston Street graffiti. It has been suggested that Harry was Irelands wife’s brother who had mental health issues. Milkins has suggested that Harry was ‘Harry’ Jones a welsh serial killer?

Of course Ireland was due in court on minor traffic offences the following week, so the police reference could simply have been that? I would imagine his car had been clocked in the police ring of the area.

Hi Stan: we know Ireland worked as a security guard on the Heron Estate and had access to the substation. However how long he was there I do not know. It’s a Shame Seabrook didn’t give more detail as he had access to the records.

Catch you all soon

Many thanks for all your replies.

Pirate Jeff

http://stewarthomesociety.org/blog/?tag=kevin-milkins

http://www.stewarthomesociety.org/seabrook.htm

Just found this link which has some interesting Chat. i think I should have made it clear that Harold Jones used the alias Harry Stevens while living in Putney. P

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi all

I'm just making sure this thread is still alive as I plan to start filming a new documentary with Neal Melkin at the end of November.

Any input, of any kind would be welcome. No commission. Just passion for the case/subject matter.

Jeff

PS I have just checked the casebook site and discovered that I have been banned from discussing even this case, on casebook. This is because I made an appology to Chris Philips that casebook admin thought broke the letter of their law. Sod them they are *******'s. I will try and contact people with a serious interest in the Hammersmith nude murders and keep them updated.

If anyone speaks to Ally Ryder send her my LOVE XX

I'm hoping this will now be the place for serious discussion on he subject. Wishing you all well.

[Stan Reid]

That's good news Jeff. Is the production going to just be Neil's view? I hope other theories would at least be presented without totally dismissing them - just my hope - nothing more.

[SirRobertAnderson]

PS I have just checked the casebook site and discovered that I have been banned from discussing even this case, on casebook. This is because I made an appology to Chris Philips that casebook admin thought broke the letter of their law. Sod them they are *******'s. I will try and contact people with a serious interest in the Hammersmith nude murders and keep them updated.

If anyone speaks to Ally Ryder send her my LOVE XX

.

Please leave Casebook beef off of How's boards. Tell us the good stuff you're doing and are excited about. Leave the negatives behind. You'll feel better for it, I promise you. You've got a nice clean slate here and the audience is polite as my taser is close at hand.

[Jeff Leahy]

OK, it is annoying as like it or not casebook seems to have a bigger catchment for the public than JtRforums. And a number of my ‘Stripper‘contacts come via that source. I don’t ever recall doing anything other than contributing to the ‘Stripper’ thread.

While I might have a controversial ‘persona’ in JtR related subjects, I approach the Stripper murders in a very different manor. And feel personally attached (given my contact with the victims children) and have done some serious research on the murders.

My aim is always to get the facts ‘correct’ and I like to have an interesting angle. Neal Melkins ideas interest me because they resolve the mystery of Mungo Ireland being in Scotland, when O’Hara’s body was dumped.

Also he will speculate other things in his book that I feel shake the case. (I simply can’t say more than that at present, because certain parties are still alive). But buy the book!

Because I think he has something.

I will try and keep my thoughts on topic but I cant promise not to criticize the wicked witch of the West, broom stick or NOT, the ban is petty and personally vindictive. And she knows it.

Pirate

Ps I also find it amusing that she had the cheek to turn up here and claim my ban was only a suspension...the usual casebook b*****s

[SirRobertAnderson]

OK, it is annoying as like it or not casebook seems to have a bigger catchment for the public than JtRforums.

The Casebook is the premier website for Jack the Ripper studies and a whole lot more. We're a moderated site and run things a bit differently.

But enough of this.

Tell us about Jack the Stripper and your involvement with the case. (Please.)

[A.P. Wolf]

Being banned, Jeff, is much like having a bath. Just do it once a week and you'll be fine and dandy.

[Jeff Leahy]

Being banned, Jeff, is much like having a bath. Just do it once a week and you'll be fine and dandy.

A P, I love you because your the only poster that really tells it as it is.

You are an institution.

great to have you back

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi All

Well I bet I'm going to be banned/Deleted straight away, as always...

But hey this is something I'm passionate about and I dont give a F***

My banning from casebook means that I have been unable to communicate on the subject, and also that the casebook section on the Hammersmith Nude Murders has been pretty much dead.

We were supposed to start filming a new Documentary on the Hammersmith Nude Murders this weekend but communication...well that may have been my fault.

I have spoken to Neil Melkin this evening and re-schedualed filming for last weekend second weekend of January 2010.

Anyone wishing to be involved on a documentary about the Stripper murders please contact us...

I have requested that Neil Melkin Join jtrforums to get this thread back up and running.

Would be most interest in AP Wolfs help, opinions and interview also...

Delay my fault..I've been busy but if we do not make this story properly noone else will do so...

Lookin forward to this thread over Xmas 2009-2010

Make it so

Jeff Leahy
Pilot Jack :plane:

[Howard Brown]

Jeff:

No one's bothered at all by what you said.

Hopefully your friend will come and join us to discuss the Hammersmith Nudes.

How

[Jeff Leahy]

Excellent. His new book is out soon and I think it will really add alot to the case..conciderably more than the last Jack of Jumps book at any rate.

Speak tomorrow.

Jeff

[Howard Brown]

"Jack of Jumps" ?

Whats that Jeff ?

[Jeff Leahy]

Books on the subject are limited.

Jump of Jacks was written by David Seabrook 2006 and published by Granta books.

David Died recently, however his sometimes scathing dislike for the prostitutes who were murdered gives it a rather strange flavour.

That said he is the only person known to have had access to police records. which i gather he should not have had and thus information it contains is most important.

Where Neil Melkin's book will hopefully bring some new balance and theories on the case. lets hope he joins jtrforums and some much needed new discussion on the case can begin.

Pilot Jack:plane:

[Jeff Leahy]

I noticed that Neil Melkin has come under some criticism on another site. I guess if someone is reviewing a book that is their prerogative to do so.

However, we should also be careful of throwing he baby out with the bath water and Neil has made some interesting discoveries, the importance of which should not go without comment.

Firstly I’ve long been convinced that Hannah Tailford was an important element in these murders. The murder of Elizabeth Figg is out on its own. She doesn’t fit the pattern or MO and I wonder if she was one of the killer’s victims? Gwynneth Rees is more problematic as her body laid undiscovered for some time and was badly decomposed, she fits the pattern however in the fact that she was a known club hostess and prostitute. However she worked the Eastend not west and her body was not displayed.

So why would Hannah Be important?

Well Firstly Brian McConnell’s book is somewhat confused because the research was from rather seedy tabloid reporters of the time. However that isn’t to say that it does not contain kernels of truth. He claims in the book that Hannah was a performer at private parties and that she was involved in the production of 16mm films that were played at these parties. On her murder a flat in Victoria was searched and a number of pieces of photographic equipment were seized….(There is no reference to this in Seabrook’s book Jack of Jumps, but conversations I have had subsequently lead me to question whether David Seabrook had the full cooperation of the police and access to all the files. In fact my understanding is that the police will not grant access as long as people involved are still alive?)

So what is important about private parties and naughty films?

Well over the course of a single year five prostitutes all connected to private parties and pornographic films were found murdered (Choked in the act of fallacious (a Blowjob)) they were either dumped in the Thames or left out on display having been stored for some time in an electrical sub station at the Heron industrial estate. They were, Irene Lockwood, Helene Barthelemy (know performer stripper), Mary Flemming, Francis Brown (connected to party scene)…later in 1965 Bridget O’Hara (not certain about Bridget) however these are all women who are likely to have had a connection to brothels, or at least private house parties..

What David Seabrook’s book did conclude is that the main suspect Mungo Ireland, a security guard on the Heron Industrial estate and a man with access to a certain electrical substation, was in Scotland at the time the body of Bridget O’Hara was dumped. David Seabrook took this to mean that Ireland could not have committed the crime and went on to blame a man, still alive and living in Chigwell, called Cushway. Cushway was an ex-policeman who appears to have had some mental problems but there is little evidence to suggest he was the killer. Besides why have the police always claimed, and continue to claim it was the Security guard Mungo Ireland? And why haven’t the family objected?

So here is where Neil Melkins theory comes in and is interesting. Neil claims a known serial killer and sex offender released from prison moves into the same road as Mungo Ireland shortly before the killings start. In itself it’s quite coincidental however if Neil Melkin was to discover another link in that road with private sex parties I’d say that would be very interesting indeed.

While most of the cases I have studied over the years have involved lone serial killers perhaps the biggest exception is the case of the West’s?

However due to liable laws I think I should be careful what I say, however Neil Melkin has put considerable work and research into his book and I think certain parties should be careful of being to critical before they have actually heard and seen what case he is going to make. I’ve no idea if he will draw a similar conclusion to the one I have done, however his theory about Mungo acting with other parties seems to hold a lot of water to me, as clearly Ireland was in Scotland when one of the bodies was dumped.

Anyway I better get back to work; trips to the other side are always so time consuming. Still its nice to know I’m no longer banned.

Merry Xmas all :fencing:

Pirate Jack

[Bob Hinton]

Now this is only an idea but I think it might help your working relationship along if you get Neils name right. It's 'Milkins' not 'Melkins'.

By the way I don't think Jones could by any standard be designated a serial killer. He murdered two girls in Abertillery in 1921 when he was 15.

All the best with your documentary.

[Stan Reid]

By the liberal criteria (NIJ) of Newton's The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Jones is classified as an sk even just for the two girls. I would classify him as a spree killer myself because the crimes were only a couple of weeks apart.

I've seen sources that claimed that Lockwood was also an "actress". That would make the first two "canonicals".

[Jeff Leahy]

Cheers for the advice Bob…

Hi Stan

I tried to track down a mysterious character called Captain Zip, who apparently collects 60’s 16 mm films. It would be interesting to know how many of the victims might show up. However he is somewhat elusive.

I believe that Neil makes the case that Jones was somewhat older by the time he is living in Putney and as he himself was young when these murders happened he suggests his tastes might change as he grows older. I dont have a problem with that, as I said the West case comes to mind. It would however be useful if Neil wishes to elaborate about Jones.

Yours Jeff

[Bob Hinton]

By the liberal criteria (NIJ) of Newton's The Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Jones is classified as an sk even just for the two girls. I would classify him as a spree killer myself because the crimes were only a couple of weeks apart.

.

Interesting point. Is there a definition of a serial killer that is recognised by Law Enforcement agencies? Personally I would not have classified Jones as a spree killer as they tend to commit all their crimes at the same time, like Whitman or Ryan.

[Stan Reid]

Bob-It seems like everybody has their own definition regarding combinations of numbers of killings, time spread, motive, distance between murders and whatever else strikes them.:twitch:

[Howard Brown]

Some killers commit serial and spree murder.

Ted Bundy comes to mind.

[Stan Reid]

I tried to track down a mysterious character called Captain Zip, who apparently collects 60’s 16 mm films. It would be interesting to know how many of the victims might show up. However he is somewhat elusive.

Were these "hard cores" or just "nudies"? I assume that they are sound films since they are 16mm, correct? Most "hard cores" (stag films) from that era were 8mm, often black and white as well as silent.

[Jeff Leahy]

Surely a serial killer kills over different days while a spree killer kills many in one go?

Jeff

[Bob Hinton]

Surely a serial killer kills over different days while a spree killer kills many in one go?

Jeff

That has always been my take on the definitions, but I thought there was a minimum number of victims to qualify as a serial killer. The number five springs to mind.

[Howard Brown]

Judge Hinton:

I was under the impression that the number was three. Maybe the criteria is different depending on where one lives.

[Stan Reid]

I've seen/heard everything from 2 through 5 so have your choice.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Guys

This was a discussion that came up last year when Andrew Cook was running his program. What constitutes a serial killer?

As long as we go with Chapman and Eddows by the same hand then we have a serial killer, as I understand it…

That said I doubt if there is an official definition and even if there was it would probably differ from country to country…

I think in Pirates of the Caribbean they say ‘they is more like guide lines’ :smoker:

Pirate

[SirRobertAnderson]

I tried to track down a mysterious character called Captain Zip, who apparently collects 60’s 16 mm films. It would be interesting to know how many of the victims might show up. However he is somewhat elusive.


Oh Christ, the week is not off to a good start. My oldest son's Godfather's nickname - I kid you not - is Captain Zip .

He's an American in his mid-50s.

Do you have any more info on this guy ?

[Big Jon]

Hi Guys

This was a discussion that came up last year when Andrew Cook was running his program. What constitutes a serial killer?

As long as we go with Chapman and Eddows by the same hand then we have a serial killer, as I understand it…

That said I doubt if there is an official definition and even if there was it would probably differ from country to country…

I think in Pirates of the Caribbean they say ‘they is more like guide lines’ :smoker:

Pirate

Right according to one book in front of me:

Multiple murder is categorised into serial murder, mass murder and spree murder. The differences between these categories are based on time between killings and the geographic distances over which the murders occur (Douglas et al 1992, Hickey 2002, Delisi and Sherer 2006). There is debate over the number of murders which must occur before the offender is considered a serial murderer: three victims is frequently utilised, but definitions range from two to four victims (Jenkins 1988, Rappaport 1988).

Typically the term "serial murder" is applied to killings that occur when three or more victims are killed over a period of time spanning from days to years. Between each murder there is a "cooling off" period in which the offender does not kill (Gresswill and Hollin 1994, Holmes and Holmes 1998a,b).

[Stan Reid]

The FBI says 3 but the most inclusive definition is from the National Institute of Justice which just says "a series of two or more murders, committed as separate events". Their time range is "from hours to years".

[Jeff Leahy]

Cheers Guys I think you have, what can be had, and I bow to your expertise...

With reference to Captain Zip yes I do have further information but I'm not certain how far I should go with that on a public message board.:boink:

Merry Xmas everyone

Jeff x