As though it was covered with dark American cloth.

[Pilgrim]

"She went away toward Thrawl Street. A man coming in the opposite direction to Kelly tapped her on the shoulder and said something to her. They both burst out laughing. I heard her say alright to him. And the man said you will be alright for what I have told you. He then placed his right hand around her shoulders. He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it. I stood against the lamp of the Queen’s Head Public House and watched him."

...

"I could swear to the man anywhere. I told one policeman on Sunday morning what I had seen, but did not go to the police-station. I told one of the lodgers here about it yesterday, and he advised me to go to the police-station, which I did last night. The man I saw did not look as though he would attack another one. He carried a small parcel in his hand about 8in. long, and it had a strap round it. He had it tightly grasped in his left hand. It looked as though it was covered with dark American cloth. He carried in his right hand, which he laid upon the woman's shoulder, a pair of brown kid gloves."

~~~

American Cloth. (http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Dictionary-of-Dry-Goods/American-Cloth.html)

A name given in England to a cotton cloth, prepared with a glazed and varnished surface to imitate Morocco leather (http://www.creaseycartrimmers.co.uk/userimages/carriage1.jpg), used for carriage trimming (http://www.creaseycartrimmers.co.uk/userimages/carriage1.jpg)*; known in the United States as enameled or oil cloth.

A Complete Dictionary of Dry Goods (George S. Cole, 1892). (http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Dictionary-of-Dry-Goods/index.html)

....http://brightbytes.com/collection/images/Kodak1.jpg
..Kodak 1888. (http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=6101)3 1/4'' x 3 3/4'' x 6 1/2''.
..http://www.hollanders.com/ServeImage.ashx?ID=52f30b01-518f-463d-b3f5-957e624b4180

Imitation Leather Black Morocco. (http://www.hollanders.com/supplies/ViewProduct.aspx?ProductID=fbafac28-e721-42eb-bf0f-18aa3a77f6af&CategoryID=7e208cdb-f200-4db1-ab6b-35df3544b584)

A 100% cotton base book covering material. Typically used for edition work and general bookbinding. Can be easily turned and glued. Also may be hot stamped, embossed, and silkscreened.

Hollander's - Bookbinding Supplies. (http://www.hollanders.com/supplies/ViewProduct.aspx?ProductID=fbafac28-e721-42eb-bf0f-18aa3a77f6af&CategoryID=7e208cdb-f200-4db1-ab6b-35df3544b584)

~~~

"...and it had a strap round it."

"...a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it."

[Nemo]

Nice post agin Pilgrim

I thought American cloth was denim

That opens up a few options to me

The possibility that he was in possession of at least a small square of water/blood-proof material

Is there a possibility that it was a book?

In Oliver Twist I remember him carrying a few books ties up with a strap

(Not a Magic book surely? - A Black magic one could be expected to be covered in dark mock leather (as would a 1000 others I know))

Being wrapped and strapped always makes me think it is a purchase from a shop

Is there any item that would have been specifically wrapped in this way with mock leather type material? An expensive and delicate purchase such as cigars maybe?

[Currerbell]

Im sure denim was invented in the 1850s in America...

[Pilgrim]

Until quite recently I also thought the word 'cloth' here would have to mean that something was wrapped inside a piece of cloth. But for various reasons I came to notice that neither the witness testimony nor the press reports say that the 'parcel' was wrapped. The word is 'covered'.

The Times, Wednesday, 14 November 1888 - (http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881114.html)

"The man I saw carried a small parcel in his hand about 8in. long and it had a strap round it. He had it tightly grasped in his left hand. It looked as though it was covered with dark American cloth. "

The Star, Wednesday, 14 November 1888 (http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881114.html) - (http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881114.html)

"He carried a small parcel in his hand about 8in. long, and it had a strap round it. He had it tightly grasped in his left hand. It looked as though it was covered with dark American cloth."

Witness testimony, 12 November 1888 - (http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/George_Hutchinson.html)

"He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it."

'tightly grasped'
'dark American cloth'
'about 8in. long'
'kind of a parcel'
'kind of a strap'
'small parcel'
'covered'

If it was in fact 'tightly grasped' it could mean that it may have been of some weight and/or possibly of a width that would have made for a tighter grasp. 'Covered' could possibly include 'wrapped'. But if a parcel is in fact wrapped, I'd think one would say so. Which means, in my view, that the word 'covered' could be of some significance here. My first thought was that a book could be covered in 'dark American cloth' - that is, covered with/in dark imitation Morocco leather (the contemporary British English meaning of 'American cloth', according to the 1892 Complete Dictionary of Dry Goods). A book could of course also, possibly, have some kind of a strap around it. But, to me anyway, calling it a parcel, or 'kind of a parcel', sounds slightly odd then. Which is why I find that 'parcel' perhaps rather would mean an item looking more like a Kodak 1888 box camera than like a book.

~~~

[Pilgrim]

"...a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it."

"...it had a strap round it. He had it tightly grasped in his left hand."

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Kind20of20a20strap20round20it.jpg

[Howard Brown]

Here again is another example of some very creative thinking on your part,Pilgrim.

I have never heard anyone ever suggest what you've suggested here.

Whether its correct or not, we may never know..but its very encouraging to see a method of Case analysis such as this on the Forums.

Thanks Pilgrim.

[Nemo]

Yes I see what you mean

The Ripper may have had a camera - or at least that suspect did

Interesting - a camera may not have been recognised as such at the time

Could also be a reason to have a big bright fire in Millers Court - to provide light for a photograph to be taken

[Sam Flynn]

Interesting observations, Pilgrim - but surely Hutchinson would have described such an object as a "box" straight off the bat, rather than the more vague "a kind of a parcel"? Boxes are regular in outline, whereas parcels tend to be rather - um - "lumpy". Compare, for instance, Mrs Cox's earlier observation of a "quart can of ale"... as opposed to "a kind of pot".

[SirRobertAnderson]

Could also be a reason to have a big bright fire in Millers Court - to provide light for a photograph to be taken

Explains the fire alrighty. I love this outside the box thinking.

Let's play with this for a minute and assume it was a camera. Was he looking for a whore with a room, then ? I can't see Jack pausing for a snap - or having enough light, either - at any of the other murder scenes.

[Nemo]

Or the camera was just a box to carry away the organs because he was disguised as a newspaper reporter...

[Howard Brown]

Sammy:

You may be right when you stated..."but surely Hutchinson would have described such an object as a "box" straight off the bat, rather than the more vague "a kind of a parcel"?"

But..

Wouldn't it depend on how the Astrakhan Man was holding the box ( consider the lack of ambient light,Sam) and how much attention to detail Hutchinson paid to the actual shape of the item? I can hold a parcel/box under my arm and if you do not know how long the box/parcel is, it might well be square or elongated...and you couldn't tell. Funny Hutchinson is so specific in his description of the Astrakhan Man,but not the item....innit?

When Hutchinson said " a kind of parcel" isn't that in essence what a box is? What specifically delineates one from the other?

[SirRobertAnderson]

the box/parcel is, it might well be square or elongated...and you couldn't tell. Funny Hutchinson is so specific in his description of the Astrakhan Man,but not the item....innit?

When Hutchinson said " a kind of parcel" isn't that in essence what a box is? What specifically delineates one from the other?

Fascinating to ponder.

Because we are thinking GH is describing the Ripper (or his conception of what the Ripper would look like) for eternity we've thought he's carrying his knifes in some sort of roll up.

[Howard Brown]

Sam:

And yes I know what Hutchinson stated..."a kind of small parcel with a kind of a strap around it..."

Love those "button boots with gaiters n' white buttons" though...

[Howard Brown]

Furthermore..

As Pilgrim has provided us with the recent 1888 Kodak thread...to Hutchinson..in the dark...and probably having never seen an 1888 Kodak...what else could a 1888 Kodak be to him but a "kind of a parcel with a kind of strap on it " ??

[Sam Flynn]

Furthermore..

As Pilgrim has provided us with the recent 1888 Kodak thread...to Hutchinson..in the dark...and probably having never seen an 1888 Kodak...what else could a 1888 Kodak be to him but a "kind of a parcel with a kind of strap on it " ??He'd surely have recognised a box when he saw one, though, Howie.

[dougie]

"Tightly grasped".Depends what was tightly grasped ,the strap? or the parcel,camera? If the parcel then it would surely be quite small,to say it was 8 inches long ,but not mention the width or breadth would indicate that the 8 inch length was the longest/biggest part?Not sure how One could tell if it was TIGHTLY grasped or just grasped. Possibly splitting hairs here.
If it WAS a camera (and Im pretty sure pilgrim is having us on anyway):) Wouldnt a Flash apparatus be required? tripod even? Would he have developed the photos...no Im not going there....
Original thinking though

[Howard Brown]

I disagree a little on this one, Sam. Put on the mitts and lets hit it..:boxing:

First of all, Hutchinson was not required to specify what the "container" (to not exclude a box, a package,a parcel,etc...) looked like as he was asked to do with the subject, Astrakhan Man.

Secondly, I maintain that unless he was up to snuff on the (at the time) revolutionary 1888 Kodak camera, I doubt he knew what an 1888 Kodak looked like.

It looks like a box with a handle...a parcel with a handle... and a package with a handle.

Ordinarily, boxes do not have string on them when someone is transporting them while walking. We call them "packages" or parcels. They may be boxes...but we usually don't classify them as such.

I think you'll have to agree:boxing: that Hutchinson's description of a parcel is more in line with how his contemporaries would classify what A.M. was carrying.

Again, I'm not arguing that what he, A.M., was carrying can be determined by any means. I'm saying that what he was carrying...regardless of what it was..would have been called a "parcel"...even if it was a camera or box of chocolates..and especially with a string attached as parcels are usually known to wrapped with.

The Lusk kidney was stated to have been in a parcel...but I think I may have also heard it was "accompanying a letter in a box" sent to Lusk. Correct me on this Sam.

[dougie]

Purely as a matter of interest ,what would an 1888 brownie camera have cost?

[Pilgrim]

Hi, Dougie...

....http://www.jtrforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4721&stc=1&d=1238173112

[Sam Flynn]

I think you'll have to agree:boxing: that Hutchinson's description of a parcel is more in line with how his contemporaries would classify what A.M. was carrying.I daresay his contemporaries would also have known a box when they saw one, How.The Lusk kidney was stated to have been in a parcel...but I think I may have also heard it was "accompanying a letter in a box" sent to Lusk. Correct me on this Sam.I think you're right there, How - but, remember, whereas the press might have had a hand in how the Lusk - um - "receptacle" was reported, we're talking about Hutchinson's own words here. I still reckon that if he'd seen a box, he'd have said as much.

Another point to ponder is that, whilst Hutch doesn't spell out the precise shape, the only dimension he does mention is its length. This suggests that it was longer than it was wide, and there's no hint of depth given in the description at all. Take that into account, add the fact that he didn't call it a "box" either, and it doesn't seem likely that what he claims to have seen was cuboidal in appearance.

[Nemo]

It's a book...

[Pilgrim]

'parcel' (http://images.google.com/images?as_q=&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&um=1&btnG=Google-s%F8k&as_epq=parcel&as_oq=&as_eq=&imgtype=&imgsz=&imgw=&imgh=&as_filetype=&imgc=&as_sitesearch=&safe=images&as_st=y)

'kind of a parcel' (http://images.google.com/images?as_q=&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&um=1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=kind+of+a+parcel&as_oq=&as_eq=&imgtype=&imgsz=&imgw=&imgh=&as_filetype=&imgc=&as_sitesearch=&safe=images&as_st=y)

[Pilgrim]

"...it had a strap round it."

"...a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it."


http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/parcel20with20a20kind20of20strap20r.jpg

[John Savage]

Hi Pilgrim,

Following from "Paper it's Making Merchanting and Usage" Pub. National Association of Paper Merchants, London 1965.

"Leatherettes: Strong base papers usually M.G. [machine glazed] before processing. They are coated and embossed, or printed and embossed and sold in very wide ranges of shades and embossing designs. Common titles are blue crocodile, red morroco, green water-silk, black oriental etc. Used for book ends, covers, boxes etc., these converted papers are analogous to flints, enamels, calf and gummed papers. Qualities, shades and substances [thickness] are varied to suit various uses. First qualities are expensive, but a second quality, known as imitation leatherette, is usually available"

Rgds
John

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi,
I must admit the suggestion that the 'kind of parcel. with a strap around it', was infact a camera, is a excellent theory, and so with that line of thought in mind, the suggestion that he may have been posing as a member of the press, or actually was one is likely.
If Hutch was describing the man accurately, it would appear he was not dressed for a night with a east end prostitute, especially doing business down some filthy alley, so the valid question must arise.
How did he know that he was about to meet a woman of that character, who not only had a room of her own, but was the solitary person living there?.
Did this man know Mary, was the meeting arranged earlier?, .
if so why was the meeting place Thrawl Street, why did the man simply not make his way to room 13, which was obviously the destination, where the couple would be intimate.?
Because of these points , i would suggest that either Ripperologists are right[ most] in denouncing Hutchinson, and the whole Astracan man was an invention, never existed.... or Hutchinson was telling the truth[ i believe] and the man was simply a person inquiring if kelly knew of any private rooms where he could rest, prior to going to the lord mayors show, mayby he was a pressman , and left kellys room some four hours later to get a early start.
The kissing and touching , observed by Hutchinson, and the hand on shoulder, soon after meeting her, would suggest that a man simply wanting a few hours shelter, might not behave that way.
The main point here, is the intresting questions.
Was Astracan JTR?
Why was he dressed in his sunday best?
Assuming he was not then about to take a victim down some sordid alley, how could he be certain that his kill would be a inside job?
Did he know Mary, did he promise to take her to the Lord mayors show the next morning, was he on his way to her room , when he obseved her out and about, did he say, he thought it was easier if he stopped with her in her room, so they could make a earlier start, was it planned?
Was his attire which caused them both to laugh?
Plenty to discuss folks....
Regards Richard.

[Nemo]

The carrying of a camera would fit in with a Lord Mayor's show visitor

I have some more references that may be of interest

Symposium and exhibit on 19th century American cloth bindings



Date: Thursday, February 7, 2008
"The Well-Dressed Book: A Symposium on Nineteenth-Century American Cloth Binding"University of MarylandMarch 14, 2008Barely three decades after the advent of the cloth bound book, theU.S. Census Bureau's report on manufacturing in 1860 noted that "byfar the larger proportion of all the books now published in theUnited States are put up in cloth binding, which, in addition to itscheapness and the rapidity with which work of that kind may beturned out, possesses considerable durability and capacity forornamentation." Publishers' cloth bindings represented a majortransformation in the book, one whose study impinges on manyinterests, including the history of art and design; the history ofbusiness, technology, and labor; literary and book history; the bookarts; librarianship, curatorship, and collecting. The appreciationand study of cloth bindings on the part of scholars, librarians andcurators, collectors, and others has grown substantially in recentyears.On Friday, March 14, 2008 the University of Maryland Libraries willhost a daylong symposium featuring prominent scholars, curators, andcollectors exploring various aspects of the history and appreciationof cloth bindings. Scheduled speakers include Michael Winship, SueAllen, Steve Beare, Jessica Lacher-Feldman, Robert Milevsky, DouglasMcElrath, and Randy Silverman.The symposium accompanies the exhibition "The Well-Dressed Book:Cloth Book Binding in the United States, 1830-1920," which drawsmainly upon the university's special collections.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/0001.jpg

[Sam Flynn]

The carrying of a camera would fit in with a Lord Mayor's show visitorWhy would anyone carry such a comparatively expensive item around with them at dead of night in such a rough neighbourhood, with the Lord Mayor's Show some nine hours away? Couldn't he have left it at his hotel? Come to think of it, what would a visitor to the Lord Mayor's Show be doing in Spitalfields at that time anyway?

Again - Hutchinson only describes its length. If that was the only dimension he wished to convey, then clearly he was thinking about a "long" object - not a "boxy" one.

[Howard Brown]

Sam:


Why would anyone carry such a comparatively expensive item around with them at dead of night in such a rough neighbourhood, with the Lord Mayor's Show some nine hours away? Couldn't he have left it at his hotel? Come to think of it, what would a visitor to the Lord Mayor's Show be doing in Spitalfields at that time anyway?

Maybe for the same reason someone would brave the worst street in London dressed to the nines as Hutchinson describes just to pick up a girl on the street and then conduct a sex-for-hire transaction....at that time of morning.

Maybe...just maybe...if he had something else on his person to protect his investment in this case the theoretical Kodak or box of crayons, he'd feel a little more at ease should some person or persons make an attempt to rip him off.

People do far more stupid things today in times where its not a requirement to walk to a place where sex is transacted. In fact, nearly all street level sex transactions are conducted by automobile.

Imagine how many times a modern day pross simply opened the door of a client's late model vehicle after nicking an expensive item while in the car and ran off,walked away, or was let go without the client being aware until it was obviously too late. People do dumb things,Sam. It's why,as I hear, they put erasers on pencils and have paddles in classrooms.:)

[Nemo]

Do we relate the description of PC Smith in the Liz Stride case with this?

He described the man as being about 28 years of age, 5ft 7in tall, wearing a dark overcoat and trousers. He also wore a hard felt deerstalker hat and was described as 'respectable' looking. The man was also holding a newspaper parcel, about 18in in length and 6 or 8in wide

Is the implication that the Ripper was carrying his knife (knives) around with him wrapped as a parcel?

If not - what is the most likely object to have been carried by someone late at night wrapped in such a way?

I realise the above dimensions sound like a rolled up newspaper but a PC described it as a parcel...

[Sam Flynn]

Again - Hutchinson only describes its length. If that was the only dimension he wished to convey, then clearly he was thinking about a "long" object - not a "boxy" one.I agree. ;)

[ferret]

Just skimming here- but didn't denim come from 'De Nimes' where the original fabric was woven/built

Sorry if this has been covered before!:tape:

[Nemo]

Browsing through some old photos - I think a cigar box would fit the bill

What else would you be buying/carrying late at night wrapped in such a manner? (beside a camera / book of course)

[ferret]

Good points Nemo-
Blimey a box camera!! OMG PICS!..Hmmmmmmmm........books a la Oliver! or maybe a Pak -a -mac? LOL I reckon it may have just have been some doings he'd gathered during the day wrapped in the 'American Cloth' against the rain...Tobacco, Food (...a weapon of some kind...unlikely)... We don't know the proportions of this thing and we never will- maybe it was just a dark parcel of some kind- interpreted as 'American /Oil cloth' against the weather.

Wonder what was in it tho!:playball:

[dougie]

A First Aid Manual?

[ferret]

Ah right!! The writing in Miller's Ct meant to say that and missed out the A !!!!!

[Pilgrim]

Just skimming here- but didn't denim come from 'De Nimes' where the original fabric was woven/builtThat would seem to be true. A serge cloth originally made by the André (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famille_Andr%C3%A9) family at Nimes; 'blue jeans' derived from the color of the weft: 'blu di Genova' - 'bleu de Gênes'. (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denim)

[Nemo]

That's correct

In it being a possible American cloth (to me) - I was thinking about the early use of it in American workwear

[Stephen Thomas]

Just skimming here- but didn't denim come from 'De Nimes' where the original fabric was woven/built



Hmmmmmmm

Apparently so (thanks Pilgrim)

But was 'corduroy' originally 'corde du roi'?

[Nemo]

It wasn't a pack of these was it?

4741

(Animal skin condom circa 1900)

Seriously, the condom was very prevalent in the LVP - mainly as a defence against disease rather than conception

Rubber condoms had been available for a number of years prior to 1888

Rubber shoes - rubber condoms

It might tell us something about the Ripper - " 8" long..." Oh let's not go there...

Surely there was a condom shop nearby in the area so well known for prostitution?

[Sam Flynn]

Again - Hutchinson only describes its length. If that was the only dimension he wished to convey, then clearly he was thinking about a "long" object - not a "boxy" one.I agree.

[SirRobertAnderson]

It wasn't a pack of these was it?




Wow - we don't have a sense of scale but from here it looks like the size of a sock!

[Sam Flynn]

Surely there was a condom shop nearby in the area so well known for prostitution?I'd hardly have thought so, Nemo. The area might have had its share of streetwalkers, serving mainly debauched locals, but it was hardly the sex-tourism resort that popular conceptions of the Ripper story would have us believe. The sort of prostitution on offer was often of the low-grade, low-cost type - as were the women who resorted to it when begging or scrounging failed, and cashflow problems forced them onto the streets.

[Nemo]

Hi Sam

Yes - but these items in rubber were available - not expensive either

If I was contemplating "going" with one of these women I think it would be a sensible thing to have to guard against disease

Also - wouldn't the carrying of them in the manner described ie on show, be a signal to the prostitutes that he was a potential client

(and it might make a fine water/bloodproof receptacle for a bodily organ...)

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Nemo,Yes - but these items in rubber were available - not expensive eitherWhen people struggled to save mere pennies, they would have been considered a luxury.If I was contemplating "going" with one of these women I think it would be a sensible thing to have to guard against diseaseSense goes out of the window if you're a drunken labourer who can spare a couple of pennies for the "pleasure" of having a gin-soaked woman clamp your John Thomas between her thighs.Also - wouldn't the carrying of them in the manner described ie on show, be a signal to the prostitutes that he was a potential clientWe're not talking about "conventional" prostitution in the main - not the 20th/21st Century type, nor even the "better quality" prostitution of 19th Century London, for that matter. We're talking about rough, inebriated dossers doing whatever was necessary - be it selling flowers or selling their bodies, sweeping floors, begging, scrounging, whatever - to pay for a bed, or their next tot of gin.

Anyhow... less about the India Rubber, and back to the "American Cloth" ;)

[ferret]

All dated 1888-1900 Particularly interesting is Queen Alexandra with her Box Brownie!!!
4744 The camera

4745 Innards of said cam

God I remember that SOOOO well- turning the handle and winding the film on- and if you were clever/daft you could get double exposure with very credible ghosts- long before the days of PhotoShop!

4746George Eastman with his

4747 PAV's Mum with hers! "Smile and don't think of them women!"

4748 Obviously the VERY one that was shuffled into No 13 Miller's Ct and shoved behind the bed!!!
What's that box in front of the back leg???? Glass plates and paraphrenalia I imagine...Oh and the cloak!!!?? (AH! a cloak!!......heeeeeee )

As a by the way-I remember my Dad having a box Brownie in a sort of tan canvas case with 120 (I think ) film.....sadly it's all long gone now - Mind you there was always that awful embarrassment at the chemist on 'pick up' day ! (always the chemist! and at least 5 days after you'd 'er put them in!)

...... O M G and then of course the Polaroid 'Land' camera made everyone's bedroom their own!!!! (Ooops) :) x

As I say I recall my Dad's Brownie camera in a tan canvas case- wonder if they were packaged earlier in an AMERICAN CLOTH case!

[Donald Souden]

Suzi,

One could always avoid the embarrassment and wait by developing and printing your own film--as I did and still do. Incidentally, your dad's camera may have taken 120 film (still used by some professionals) but if it were a Brownie I would guess it used 620. Same format and all, just packaged differently.

Don.

[ferret]

Hi Don Yes 620 sounds rightish- They were all wrapped up in sort of yellowish and black difficult to get out of paper I recall- BUT had to be bought from the chemist all the same!

Thank Gawd for Digi 'eh xx

[Howard Brown]

Gang:

Not to be too much of a nag, but lets stick to the thread's premise that Pilgrim established here and avoid ( I will do it as well...)putting a lot of photos of cameras and diverting away from the original point. That being in regard to the parcel that Hutchinson described and how it pertains to the 1888 Kodak camera model that Pilgrim found or provided...and it alone. Thank you in advance.

If you want to set up a thread on other LVP artifacts, by all means, knock yourselves out.:kiss:

[Nemo]

My apologies Pilgrim :sorry:

Reading back over the thread - I am guilty of going off topic big time

Sorry to see you deleted your posts

I hope you have moved them to a new thread for the discussion of the camera which I think has great merit

If an american cloth covered camera was grasped tightly and seen side on - the strap would be visible and - as I've been told - if the light was dim, then I can see it exactly fitting the description in the record

[Celesta]

I think that when most Americans think of oilcloth, aka American cloth, they think of table cloths, particularly those used for outdoor dining. It resisted moisture or spilled liquids. Any item "done-up" in oilcloth is meant to be moisture protected. Items such as knives, etc., made of steel might be protected from moisture and rust, in an oilcloth parcel, or a box or container covered with oilcloth. It could be used to cover anything you want to keep dry, at least for a time. It would be surprising to find a box, such as a camera box, covered in oilcloth.

[Nemo]

I think the covering of the camera could be described as cheap imitation leather - which was a definition posted by Pilgrim describing American cloth

I would agree that its use is in waterproofing which is why I posited tobacco as an alternative to the camera

It is the strap that has always been hard for me to visualise being used

Unless it IS a knife case/medical kit type of thing (jewellery roll?) that closes with a strap & buckle

A parcel would almost certainly be tied with ribbon or string
especially if that parcel was carried by a gent

You could possibly a leather belt type arrangement being wrapped around a parcel as a carrying aid

But I do think the camera has merit on all counts

It looks like it is covered in American cloth - it is 6-7" wide - and it has a strap

Hutchinson need not have been able to see the whole package/camera as the man was holding it tightly, and it was dark.

All that would have been noticeable would have been the shine/sheen on the surface of the object and possibly a contrasting strap clean down the side of the box.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nemo,It looks like it is covered in American cloth - it is 6-7" wideA small parcel, 8 inches long. A "box" 8 inches long, commensurately wide and deep, would not be "small".and it has a strap.It had a strap around it - therefore it doesn't sound much like a camera's shoulder-strap to me.

[Celesta]

Or perhaps something like this, except for knives, and with an outer covering of "American cloth," possibly with some sort of strap. This rolls up, as displayed at the top of the page.


http://www.phisick.com/a4rollholzhauer.htm

[Celesta]

Also, here is a surgical kit in a nice wooden box, which has a leather carrying case. I can see a version of this with a strap.

http://www.braceface.com/medical/Civil_War_Surgeons_swords_and_images/surgery_set_images/pj%20kern%20set%201.jpg

[Nemo]

Hi Celesta

Gruesome looking tools there

The roll does fit the bill with the strap - which is what I was referring to

However, are we working on the premise that the Ripper would carry instruments/knives wrapped in a parcel plainly on show?

If not - then what else could it have been?

Sam - would Hutchinson have an accurate idea of the depth of the box/parcel?

The dimensions of the side elevation of the camera is only as large as a small book - and some of the height of the box/parcel/camera could have been hidden by Astrakhan's hand/fur cuff/sleeve

I think he described it as a "kind of" parcel - why not come straight out and say it was a parcel if he recognised it as such?

There is an obvious implication that there is something out of the ordinary about it and Hutchinson qualifies his statement with "covered in American cloth" and with the strap

I was trying to work on the premise that IF Astrakhan exists and IF Astrakhan is innocent, then what would he likely be carrying on show like that?

If I go out for a night out I specifically make sure I don't have to carry anything in my hands.

I think it would much more likely be some kind of purchase he has made that evening. So what would be wrapped and carried like that?


There are other explanations, but I think a tourist type of character, or possibly a journalist - from out of town maybe, would also fit the bill if he were carrying such a camera.

[Nemo]

I have a quote from 1936 which may imply that Hutchinson was simply trying to suggest the infamous "black bag"


"Someone reported to the police that on the night of the double murder a mysterious stranger, who behaved very queerly, had been seen in Spitalfields carrying a shiny black bag. This started a new scare so terrifying that all men carrying such bags - which were made of American cloth and were very popular until the Ripper drove them right out of fashion - were chased by howling mobs and invariably ended up in police stations."

F.A. BEAUMONT 1936
"The Fifty Most Amazing Crimes of the Last 100 Years"
Chapter: The Fiend of East London

[Sam Flynn]

Sam - would Hutchinson have an accurate idea of the depth of the box/parcel?We don't measure things with our eyes, Nemo - we perceive shapes right of the bat. If he'd seen something boxy, I guarantee you he'd have said that Mr Astrakhan was carrying a box.I think he described it as a "kind of" parcel - why not come straight out and say it was a parcel if he recognised it as such?

There is an obvious implication that there is something out of the ordinary about it.Cameras were hardly out of the ordinary in 1888, and it's not as if Hutch was an Amazon tribesman or anything ;)

[Caroline Morris]

Hi All,

Whatever 'parcel' Hutch thought he saw (or had in mind when he claimed he saw it), we have to assume it didn't (or wouldn't) immediately arouse his suspicions that the man holding it was planning to harm poor Mary with its contents the instant he got her alone. It just doesn't work - whether Hutch was an innocent witness just saying what he saw, or a liar who claimed he had buggered off and left his friend in the room with this man with no thought of checking on her welfare first.

In short, the parcel either didn't strike him as being potentially injurious to Mary's health if and when he saw it, or he chose to invent one to spice up a tall tale, but was obliged to describe something vague, that might only have been considered significant in hindsight. Either way, the classic ripper murder bag would not appear to be a realistic option.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Either way, the classic ripper murder bag would not appear to be a realistic option.... but an 8 inch knife, or set of knives, wrapped in "American cloth" might be, Caz. Remember that Dr Phillips' description of a knife "six to eight inches in length" had been given saturation coverage by the press in the aftermath of Annie Chapman's murder.

[Celesta]

With so many tailors, carpenters, doctors, apothecaries, etc, in the area, it wouldn't have been uncommon to see people carrying cases or boxes of all types. Mr. A., innocent or not, could've been carrying any such item. The fact remains that whatever it was, Hutch paid very close attention to it, or at least wanted us to think he did.

Some of the amputation surgical kits on the website I posted had the saw along with other knives. That would have come in pretty handy that night. Those surgical kits came in fancy boxes, but I only saw the one set of knives with a leather carrying case. I wonder how common the leather external carrying case was.

Still, it could have been a camera case.

[Sam Flynn]

Has anyone mentioned roll-up knife/scalpel cases yet? I had one at school.

[Celesta]

Has anyone mentioned roll-up knife/scalpel cases yet? I had one at school.

That's kind of like what I posted in the first link, Sam, only that was more elaborate than just a scalpel set. I didn't see those on the medical site, but I keep looking for them.

Here's a link with a number of cameras, some of them dating to the 1880's. Some have the leatherette finish on the case. As you said earlier, cameras were not out of the ordinary. There are a number of interesting varieties here.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dtristramludwig.com/images/575_unpe4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dtristramludwig.com/collection.html&usg=__tPDjBIYHF0wKKOW_TskAPcNLI2Y=&h=370&w=575&sz=36&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=aWfywQGPgEkbYM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=134&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dantique%2Bcamera%2B19th%2Bcentury%26h l%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1

[Sam Flynn]

Here's a link with a number of cameras, some of them dating to the 1880's. There are a number of interesting varieties here.Indeed - and they're all box-shaped ;)

[dougie]

perhaps

[Caroline Morris]

... but an 8 inch knife, or set of knives, wrapped in "American cloth" might be, Caz. Remember that Dr Phillips' description of a knife "six to eight inches in length" had been given saturation coverage by the press in the aftermath of Annie Chapman's murder.

Er, yes Sam. But I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that Mr A existed and could realistically have been carrying such an article without Hutch batting an eyelid?

Or are you suggesting that Hutch could have made up the man and given him a lethal-sounding package on the strength of the 'saturation coverage', to make the police believe it was a wrapped up knife, or set of knives?

Either way, I can't see them merrily accepting that he had no reason at the time to suspect this chap and his man bag might just be up to no good, even after 45 minutes of playing 'hide the sausage' in Mary's room.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Or are you suggesting that Hutch could have made up the man and given him a lethal-sounding package on the strength of the 'saturation coverage', to make the police believe it was a wrapped up knife, or set of knives? ... could be!

Luv, Penry (the mild-mannered janitor)

[Caroline Morris]

Morning Sam,

Then just how cretinous do you think the police could have been?

I'm not being facetious (well maybe just a wee bit :)). The point I’m trying to make is that the more suspicious you allow Hutch to have made Mr A and his accoutrements appear, the more cretinous the police must have been if they didn't know he was pulling their plonkers:

“Well yes, officer, I did say he had a J the R tattoo on his forehead and ‘MURDER KIT’ inscribed on his distinctly knife-shaped parcel. But how was I to know anything was amiss? I just thought: good luck to the pair; he seems like a decent enough fellow, and an alcoholic, rent-challenged Whitechapel prostitute in the late autumn of 1888 has needs too. If he can afford the kind of extended s&m session with Mary that I could only dream of with me empty pockets and sore feet, who am I to cast aspersions or seek to deprive them of their fun?”

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Morning Sam,

Then just how cretinous do you think the police could have been?The police accepting a statement that "He was carrying a small parcel 8 inches long" is far from being "cretinous" in my book. It's certainly nothing like their being taken in by: “Well yes, officer, I did say he had a J the R tattoo on his forehead and ‘MURDER KIT’ inscribed on his distinctly knife-shaped parcel" ...as you merrily caricatured it.

[Caroline Morris]

Nice bit of jigging, Sam. The other day you were bigging up this same 'small parcel 8" long' into something that anyone by November 1888 who didn't live under a rock could not have failed to consider hellishly sinister and deeply suspicious:

... but an 8 inch knife, or set of knives, wrapped in "American cloth" might be, Caz. Remember that Dr Phillips' description of a knife "six to eight inches in length" had been given saturation coverage by the press in the aftermath of Annie Chapman's murder.

Now you want the police to have accepted without question that Hutch could well have seen such a parcel in November 1888, carried by a flashy "foreigner" who was into Dorset St rough, and not had the slightest misgivings about leaving his pal Mary alone with the man.

My merry caricature was designed to show why it's always better not to big up something you may need to 'small down' in the next breath to suit a different argument.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Caz,Nice bit of jigging, Sam.Why is that Ripperologists immediately assume that someone is "jiggling", when in fact they're making valid - and unbiased - points?The other day you were bigging up this same 'small parcel 8" long' into something that anyone by November 1888 who didn't live under a rock could not have failed to consider hellishly sinister and deeply suspicious:

... but an 8 inch knife, or set of knives, wrapped in "American cloth" might be, Caz. Remember that Dr Phillips' description of a knife "six to eight inches in length" had been given saturation coverage by the press in the aftermath of Annie Chapman's murder. What's so controversial about what I said there?My merry caricature was designed to show why it's always better not to big up something you may need to 'small down' in the next breath to suit a different argument.I'm not "bigging" anything up, or "smalling" anything down, for that matter. I'm just telling it like it is.

PS: I'm not daft, or hypocritical - as I'm sure you know :)

[Caroline Morris]

Fair enough Sam. I must have misunderstood. I had assumed your reasoning to be that Hutch came up with the 8" parcel detail, to go along with the 'saturation coverage' and give the police a very likely murder weapon to grab hold of.

My own thinking is that the police would first have grabbed hold of Hutch's collar and demanded to know why it never occurred to him when it really mattered that this knife-shaped parcel could have contained a knife - ie while he was fannying about outside his friend's room waiting for Mr A and his knife-shaped parcel to finish his lengthy business there.

In short, the police must have seen straight through Hutch's account if he tried to make Mr A sound like a suspicious character while claiming he had no reason on earth to worry about him at the time.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

In short, the police must have seen straight through Hutch's account if he tried to make Mr A sound like a suspicious character while claiming he had no reason on earth to worry about him at the time.
I don't see that that necessarily follows, Caz. The police might have taken the view that Hutch was not to be blamed if, without benefit of hindsight, he claimed not to have been particularly worried by an 8" long parcel. Whether they saw through his account or not, the police could hardly have afforded to ignore this potential lead.

[Celesta]

In the Nov. 14th statement to the Star, he claimed that he had no suspicions that the man he saw was the killer. After a statement like this, what was his justification for paying such close attention to every detail of the man's appearance? (as if this hasn't been discussed a thousand times.) There's lot of ways to look at this, one being that he wouldn't have suspected the Ripper of being so well dressed. He even said he was surprised at seeing such a well dressed character in the neighborhood. So, yes, hindsight regarding the parcel could come into play.

Frankly, I don't believe much of what he has to say, but since there's no way to completely prove he was lying, I won't state that he was.

This was not the first parcel that was mentioned in these cases, of course. PC Smith saw a man with a parcel, prior to Stride's murder, and not much seems to have been made of that at the inquest.

[Caroline Morris]

Hi Cel and Sam,

Fair points all.

But of course it wasn't just the knife-shaped parcel and the extraordinarily close attention paid to its owner's appearance, was it? According to Ben elsewhere, GH deliberately gave the cops an ultra stereotypical description of the surly looking Jew everyone was fully expecting at the time that the ripper would turn out to be.

Assuming that Ben would not over-egg his own pudding on this point, I'm afraid I'm still not convinced that the police would be remotely happy with GH's claim to have had no worries for the safety of his Whitechapel unfortunate friend, tucked up alone with his pantomime villain for such a long session, with the ripper on the loose and very likely gagging for his next fix.

While I agree that they couldn't ignore this potential lead without checking it out, I really don't think that the benefit of hindsight excuse would have cut it for very long. In short, I doubt they would have ignored this potential lead either, when the dust settled and they concluded GH had not seen the ripper after all.

Love,

Caz
X

[Celesta]

Hi Cel and Sam,


I'm afraid I'm still not convinced that the police would be remotely happy with GH's claim to have had no worries for the safety of his Whitechapel unfortunate friend, tucked up alone with his pantomime villain for such a long session, with the ripper on the loose and very likely gagging for his next fix.

While I agree that they couldn't ignore this potential lead without checking it out, I really don't think that the benefit of hindsight excuse would have cut it for very long. In short, I doubt they would have ignored this potential lead either, when the dust settled and they concluded GH had not seen the ripper after all.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caz,

Certainly, hindsight doesn't explain it all. If Hutch was on the up-an-up, then the parcel could have been hindsight, but things are just not what they seem with this witness.

I'm not casting blame on the entire police force here, but why wasn't more information gotten out of this witness? Author's, like Evans, Osborne, have pointed out the incompleteness of Hutch's statement and some of the omissions seem almost glaring. Why would the officer taking the statement, Sgt. Badham, not extract more information from Hutch? I wonder if the police were so over-saturated with testimonies that this one, at first, seemed like just one more, esp after coming 3 days after the event? What kind of description is "a kind of small parcel... with a kind of strap around it?" That interrogator should have been all over that. Or if not the interrogator, one of the detectives higher up on the tier should have been. Yet we have no notes from later interrogations. We don't even really know what it was that made the suspect Jewish-looking in Hutch's mind. It's as if just making the statement that he had such an appearance was enough for both interrogator and witness. And of course, it wasn't. If, as Hutch claims, he wasn't worried for MJK's safety, it's certainly valid to question what were his justifications for hanging around on Dorset for so long and why he took such notice of the suspect's appearance. Why were no further questions asked of this witness?