Tumblety Connected To Irish Nationals 1888

[Nina Brown]

The following two scans appeared in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on April 27th 1890...

The article was in relation to a Negro herb doctor....but features Tumbelty at the bottom of the second scan.

Here is a reference to Tumblety's association with Irish Nationals in 1888...
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http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/tumb201.jpg

[Nina Brown]

The second and all important scan with the reference to Tumblety & Irish Nationals...again, in 1888.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/tumblety20two.jpg

[How Brown]

Good goin' Boss.

Notice the phrase "a couple of years ago" in the second scan Nina found and ask yourself whether this was all a masquerade about Tumblety fleeing because of the WM...or not.

[Tim Riordan]

Hi Nina,

This article is the only evidence people point to when they try to tie Tumblety to Irish politics. However, to my mind, this is simply a confusion of Walter Andrews trip to Canada with Tumblety's arrival in New York. It was as confusing to them then as it is to us today.

Best,

Tim

[How Brown]

Thanks for the quick reply,Tim.

Let me ask this then:

Assuming that what you have just posted is indeed the only evidence or example of what may be evidence for those who tie him in with Fenian related machinations...would you not think that the Littlechild Letter reference to the "large dossier" at Scotland Yard was relative to this article Nina provided ?

Not to put you "on the spot",sir...but what else could the large dossier refer to if not necessarily Fenian related information?

Thanks in advance.

[How Brown]

http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/Default/Skins/BEagle/Client.asp?Skin=BEagle&AW=1241907924890&AppName=2&GZ=T

[Tim Riordan]

How,

Littlechild said that "the Police" had a large file on him. He did not say the Special Branch had a file on him. If William Pinkerton is to be believed, the police were watching Tumblety as early as 1873 as a homosexual, a quack and a con man.

Best,

Tim

[How Brown]

Dear Tim:

Thanks again for the reply.:kiss:

Littlechild stated that "Scotland Yard" had a file on him within the L.L.

With respect to Pinkerton, does that specifically mean that the British police were keeping tabs on Tumblety since 1873 or did this mean American police alone?

Now I ask you this because of your position as a leading Tumblety researcher...I understand if its difficult or impossible for you to ascertain a correct answer:

Would Scotland Yard have files on homosexuals who lived abroad but traveled on occasion to Britain?

If they did have a "large dossier" on this man...and it DID extend back to 1873 as Pinkerton intimated... what on earth was it going to take for them to make a move and arrest him BEFORE the Autumn of Terror for any of the offenses that were in this "large dossier" that is said to have existed?

I'm sure you have asked yourself this question above to yourself before...and I apologize if some of the questions I ask seem academic, but in the interest of those who may be not as well versed on Tumblety, I still ask 'em.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I would take anything William Pinkerton said with a huge pinch of salt. He lied through his back teeth about the 1888/89 American activities of Superintendent Shaw and Inspectors Jarvis and Andrews.

Regards,

Simon

[Nemo]

I thought Tumblety had Fenian connections pre-1860 in Rochester (?)

[How Brown]

Funny you should mention this, Nemo, since Nina found an article from the 1860's last night which discussed a slew of Fenian or Fenian-type Irish nationalists being arrested and bailed out by men from Rochester New York.

What made both of us sit up and notice was the fact that in one case, two men came to bail one man out of jail.

I'll ask her to check into that this morning and give me the link.

[Nemo]

Yes - that would make sense

He contacts Irish sympathisers in the US and claims that he's being framed for the Ripper crimes - being held on a "false" charge due to lack of evidence

I can see someone sending him money under those circumstances, and it would verify his close connections with the Irish Nationalists

Is there no other info on these two men?

Also - it is likely that the US police contacted British police about Tumblety's visits to the UK and informed them of his possible Irish connections/fundraising/plots and possibly requested the surveillance

I would have expected a US detective to have visited the UK regarding this around the time of Tumblety's first visits under these circumstances

Could it have been a "large file" of info that was provided by the American authorities that was held by Scotland Yard?

In which case it may have been returned to them for some reason at a later date

[How Brown]

Exactly our thoughts as well Nemo.

At times,the study of Tumblety seems similar to that movie called "The Parallax View".

[How Brown]

Nemo:

This is the scan of the article Nina found yesterday, 22 years before the WM, with Rochester links....

[How Brown]

Make that 3 men to bail the last 2 on the list.

[Nemo]

Very interesting Howard/Nina

Doesn't that read that the three men bailed nine people?

They must either be rich or they were treasurers for an organisation

[How Brown]

Nemo:

We're both wrong...its 6 by 3 men:banghead:

Howzabout them apples eh?

You'll enjoy something I have just sent you by the way.

[Nemo]

So - do we know why Tumblety visited Britain so frequently?

Selling potions? Fenian activity? Raising funds (for himself) & the Irish? Sexual adventure?

He was a bit skint at times in England so why would be pay to come over here when he was short of money?

[Nemo]

There are 3 men bailed by these same guys at the beginning of the list I think Howard - and 6 at the end

[Chris G.]

How,

Littlechild said that "the Police" had a large file on him. He did not say the Special Branch had a file on him. If William Pinkerton is to be believed, the police were watching Tumblety as early as 1873 as a homosexual, a quack and a con man.

Best,

Tim

Hi Tim

Sorry but what could the large file be about. Pills and potions? Quackery? A suspicious looking "American" at the time of the Whitechapel murders? Various "unnatural activities"???? You couldn't make up a "large file" just with those things so we have to take Littlechild's word that there was something substantial to fill the file with. Besides, weren't "Special Branch" the Police?

Chris

[How Brown]

He was a bit skint at times in England so why would be pay to come over here when he was short of money?-Nemo

Thats an excellent thought.

[Chris G.]

So - do we know why Tumblety visited Britain so frequently?

Selling potions? Fenian activity? Raising funds (for himself) & the Irish? Sexual adventure?

He was a bit skint at times in England so why would be pay to come over here when he was short of money?

His pills and potions business could have been a front for other activities. Yes he may have been "a bit skint at times" or made out that he was. But the fortune he left at this death in the banking house of Henry Clews & Co. in New York belies that idea, and suggests that he might not have made that fortune just through quackery.

Chris

[How Brown]

But the fortune he left at this death in the banking house of Henry Clews & Co. in New York belies that idea, and suggests that he might not have made that fortune just through quackery.--C.G.

Many are those who avoid using their own money for things or not being able to access their money for various reasons. I agree with your line of thinking Chris...there indeed seems to be some other means of income besides pushing pimple balms.

Before I forget...please fill us in on a thread about yesterday's events at Ft. Mifflin. I hope the weather was good for you and it worked out well.

[Nemo]

I agree Chris - Though didn't Patrick Tumblety gain quite a significant inheritance at some point (a few thousand I think) - could FT have had some portion of it?

Tumblety doesn't seem to stay in one place long enough to have enabled him to amass a £140,000 from potions alone - he seems to have to get the potions made up as and when required - no shop or postal service to patients - He carried the recipes only I think - not the potions themselves

Yet he always seemed a man of means to others...

[How Brown]

Nemo:

If you get a chance... peruse the scan of the newspaper article Nina provided on "Dr." Lispenard ( who to us Tumblety is protege' to in more ways than one ).

He uses more than one name ( Ezra in 1851 and W.C. later on...) and has basically the same spiel to captive audiences....and of course, moved about like his protege did.

By the way...for all those interested in Tumblety...

Did he ever use the name "Franklin" at any time?:playball:

[Nemo]

Thanks Howard

I just perused it - I will need to analyse that a bit more - but it does mention a lucrative postal service for the pills

Have we any of Tumblety's advertisements from Liverpool/London/Birmingham papers (UK)

[How Brown]

Nemo:

I am not sure if Nina can access them ( I am her "designated mouthpiece" since she has spent nearly all day looking for Lispenard elsewhere in the US and other Tumblety references:banghead:...)

I'll wager this is a task better suited for an enterprising British Ripperologist,my friend.

[Nemo]

Here's a little more info regarding that Fenian bail situation...

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/0009.jpg

[Chris G.]

Hi Nemo

Please provide the name of the book from which that page came, if you would. Thanks in advance.

Chris

[Nemo]

Hi Chris

Apologies for not providing the reference

I have found much information of interest here...

http://www2.libraryweb.org/orgMain.asp?orgid=418

and I found the above quote in the downloadable pdf entitled...

Irish in Rochester, The, An Historical Retrospect
by McKelvey, Blake
Vol. 19 No(s) 4 (October 1957)


Regards

Nemo

PS there's some interesting civil war stuff in there also

[Chris G.]

Thank you, Nemo.

Chris

[Nemo]

No problem Chris

There is a lot of information there regarding the environs of Rochester which Tumblety would have been familiar with - the circus was regularly sited across the road from the drugstore where he worked - It seems there were many "freak shows" and the like in the local area -

The connection of the area with native indians also is well documented - indians danced for the customers in the museum above where he worked

The influx of Irish, Jewish and other immigrants is also interesting

It's all "interesting" ! - lol

[Joe Chetcuti]

Post 28 touched upon the 1866 Fenian invasion of Canada.

Plenty of money was collected for that invasion, and a ton of money filled the Fenian cash registers for the 1870 invasion, too. The Fenians made an appeal in the San Francisco Chronicle in June 1870 to stop sending money in because they had already collected more than enough bucks. Tumblety was in the heart of San Francisco's financial district during the time of the 1870 invasion of Canada. A major Fenian meeting was held in June 1870 right across the street from Tumblety's office in San Francisco. The President of the Fenian Brotherhood, John Savage, was present at the meeting. Both Savage and Tumblety were associated with Fort Corcoran during the Civil War. That fort was built by one of the founding fathers of the Fenian Brotherhood, Colonel Michael Corcoran.

I wish someone will do research into the connection between the Hibernia Bank and the Fenians in the 1800's.

[Joe Chetcuti]

The Brooklyn Daily Eagle ended a paragraph with the words "...he was under suspicion on account of his supposed connection with the advanced branch of the Irish national party."

The question that should get raised is whether or not Tumblety bluffed his way into having people think that he was involved with Parnell's Irish Party.

In his 1889 autobiography, Tumblety embellished his connection with the Irish Party by invoking Parnell's name while denouncing the Ripper accusations that were made against him. In his 1893 autobiography, the 'doctor' made a pro-Irish & anti-English speech. He claimed he delivered that talk to the Irish citizens of Boston at a banquet.

Regardless if Tumblety did actually fabricate the belief that he was involved with Parnell's political party, he still succeeded at attracting the attention of some bigwigs who were deeply embedded in Irish politics. The Irish journalist, James Tuohy, was Parnell's confidant in the House of Commons. As pointed out in last month's Ripperologist issue, it was very likely that Tuohy knew quite a lot about Tumblety.

Hughes-Hallett delivered biting speeches against Irish Home Rule, and he was a big enemy of Parnell's Irish Party and was hated by the Irish Brigade. In my opinion, Hughes-Hallett knew quite a lot about Tumblety, too.

It's only natural to wonder if the 'doctor' spread rumors about his involvement with the Irish Party to both the press and politicians. It should be remembered that the Eagle published Tumblety's '89 autobiography, so this Ripper suspect worked directly with that newspaper. When the Eagle's column was written in April 1890 about Tumblety's supposed involvement with the advanced branch of the Irish national party, Tumblety himself may have been the source of that information to the Eagle.

[Nemo]

Just some snippets regarding Fenian pledges and the "Border War" (NY Times May 1870)


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5024

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[Chris G.]

Hughes-Hallett delivered biting speeches against Irish Home Rule, and he was a big enemy of Parnell's Irish Party and hated by the Irish Brigade. In my opinion, Hughes-Hallett knew quite a lot about Tumblety, too.



It's probably perilous to speculate too much but since in 1888 Sir Charles Warren (1840-1927) and Sir Francis Hughes-Hallett (1838-1903) were both former military men--Hughes-Hallett former Royal Artillery and Warren ex-Royal Engineers (until he resumed his military career on resigning from the Met)--could Hughes-Hallett have used that "military connection" to feed information to Warren at Scotland Yard that Tumblety was a person to keep under surveillance?

Chris

[Nemo]

Would it be more likely that the Americans were aware of Tumblety and would be interested in his visits to Britain? - In which case they would probably contact their counterparts in Scotland Yard/ Special Branch to keep an eye on him ?

[Nemo]

The article from the NY times mentions "English emissaries" - keeping an eye on the fenians? reporting back to London?
(I'm not sure who these emissaries would be)

5026

[Nemo]

By the way, I've got copies of sketches of quite a few of the participants in the Parnell Commission

If anybody wants to see them I'll post them on another thread

[Chris G.]

The article from the NY times mentions "English emissaries" - keeping an eye on the fenians? reporting back to London?
(I'm not sure who these emissaries would be)

5026

Hello Nemo

Presuming your newscutting relates to the Fenian plans to invade Canada, as with the earlier New York Times articles you posted from May 1870, I would read "English emissaries" to mean English agents. And yes, as you say, they would I think have been "keeping an eye on the Fenians" and "reporting back to London" -- or else reporting first to a colleague in New York or elsewhere who would communicate the information to London.

Chris

[Nemo]

Thanks Chris - it's from the same article - NY Times May 1870

Any speculation as to what dept they belonged to? Spies or police?

[How Brown]

By the way, I've got copies of sketches of quite a few of the participants in the Parnell Commission

If anybody wants to see them I'll post them on another thread-----Nemo

Nemo:

Please do so and set it up in the "Victoriana" Forum...under "People".

Thanks pal !

[How Brown]

Both Savage and Tumblety were associated with Fort Corcoran during the Civil War. That fort was built by one of the founding fathers of the Fenian Brotherhood, Colonel Michael Corcoran.--Joe Chetcuti

I'd dare to say that this is indicative of a definite link between Tumblety and The Fenians 18 years before the WM....and in the interim from 1870 to 1888, at some point, he had to begun attracting attention and enough so to the point that the "large dossier" on Tumblety steadily accumulated. IMHO.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Hi Chris,

I like your thoughts on whether or not Hughes-Hallett used his military friendships during the investigation of the Whitechapel murders. The Tower of London and the Wellington Barracks took center stage after the George Yard murder. Hughes-Hallett was connected with the commanders of those two military sites. (Field Marshal Sir Robert Cornelius Napier and General Sir Thomas Mantagu Steele.)

Hughes-Hallett and Napier worked together to help establish "The American and Imperial Club" in Pall Mall during the 1880's. So the Colonel did keep his friendship with military men while he sat in Parliament. I don't know what his relationship was with Warren though.


Hi Howard,

Of course Tumblety's association with Fort Corcoran turned rotten. He openly mingled with the soldiers of Fort Corcoran, but when those soldiers built Fort Haggerty nearby, Tumblety sold phony military discharge papers to a few men stationed there.

[Nemo]

By the way, I've got copies of sketches of quite a few of the participants in the Parnell Commission

If anybody wants to see them I'll post them on another thread-----Nemo

Nemo:

Please do so and set it up in the "Victoriana" Forum...under "People".

Thanks pal !

No problem - I'll sort that out tomorrow (there's loads of 'em - especially witnesses)

...and I'll throw in some of London Hospital wards/patients/staff and some Whitechapel characters and residents of the lodging houses