Dr. Lispenard, Rochester,N.Y.

[Nina Brown]

1851 Rochester City Directory
Ezra Lispenard, physician, 14 Exchange Street.

1853 Rochester City Directory
W. C. Lispenard, 14 Exchange Street.

[Nina Brown]

Onondaga Gazette 1855-1857 (New York)

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Dr_20Lispenard.jpg

[Nemo]

Damn - I just posted on another thread that Tumblety didn't have a postal service to make money - but his "mentor" there offers pills at $1 a box posted Globally - and professes to have sold 15,000 of them - a nice income. Maybe Tumblety took a leaf out of his book

That article is extremely interesting Nina - many thanks for posting it

It seems to indicate there that masturbating or whatever could be sub-divided into categories of such abuse

I wonder what the Dr's opinion was and the treatment was for homosexuality - and "aversion to society"

PS I think it gives a different address on the same street for the Dr in Evans and Gainey's book - number 19 I think

[Nemo]

Dr Lispenards private hospital is given as 19 Exchange St behind the post office

I have also seen Tumblety living / lodging across the road from a post office - I wonder if he/they kept close to the P.O. as they had to maintain a postal service for the medicines and it was convenient (?)

It may show he was accomplished at mailing small packages etc (don't want to steer this thread so I'll shutup now - lol)

[How Brown]

Nemo:

Say anything you feel like saying,old bean...thats what these threads are for.

Your opinions and suggestions are and have been important.

[Nemo]

Thanks for that Howard

It amazes me how these quacks could get away with professing to be able to cure some serious illnesses at the time

Dr Lispenard mentions marriage as an ultimate goal for the self-abusing male - offering to help improve his health and demeanour to aid in his quest for a happy life with a suitable wife

If Tumblety agreed with this philosophy, it could have affected his attitude toward his wife's infidelity (though I read recently that his marriage his a contentious issue)

I wonder how Tumblety's alleged sale of pornography fit into the anti-masturbatory philosophy?

[How Brown]

Nemo:

Thanks for the reply,old bean.

Just for the record....there is no record of him ever being married other than the comment made by Sanford Conover/Colonel Dunham to a reporter in 1888. Conover is the only source for even a reference to a woman possibly being in his life in an intimate way. As it stands,there is no record of Tumblety being married at any time and as with so many elements of the WM Case in so many other different scenarios...by the repetitive use of an unconfirmed statement...it sort of becomes a "fact" that he had been married at one time.

[Nina Brown]

Nemo,

There are quite a few drug stores on Exchange St. in 1851, I have not yet located one at 19 Exchange Street. It may have been there in another year.

Rochester Directory 1851
14 Exchange Street

[Nemo]

Thanks Nina

I don't know anything apart from that reference in Evan's and Gainey's book which describes it as his private hospital

It says there - "Under the museum" - it wasn't an anatomical/medical museum was it?

Containing a uteri collection by any chance?

Lispenard does seem to specialise in disorders of the genitalia etc

[Nemo]

13-15 Exchange St in Early 20th Century

looks like the premises were part of a larger building or "arcade"

5016

You can see the post office/telegraph/cable coms office here

5017

[Nemo]

The museum contained stuffed animals and birds and also curiosities

It displayed wax figures - some relating to crimes/murder and also graphic depictions of Native Indian atrocities such as scalping - which may he of interst seeing that the Yorkshire Ripper admits to being enthralled by such exhibits

There is also mention of an anatomical section in a Rochester museum

[Nemo]

You've provably come across these already Nina but I thought I would post some links to pics from the Rochester archives

http://www.eriecanal.org/Rochester-2.html
http://www.rochester.lib.ny.us:2080/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?fullR
ecord+5180+716+1224+10+0
http://www.rochester.lib.ny.us:2080/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?fullR
ecord+5180+716+7433+14+0


13-15 Exchange St was the premises of Weed & Co at a later date - visible in the lower right of this map
http://www.rochester.lib.ny.us:2001/bin/show.pl

[Nemo]

This page contains an ad for the museum and an interesting quote regarding the corruption of the photographer working there...

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/0012.jpg

[Nemo]

Quack potion advertisements + attitude to women...


http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/0010.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/0011.jpg

[How Brown]

I don't know anything apart from that reference in Evan's and Gainey's book which describes it as his private hospital

It says there - "Under the museum" - it wasn't an anatomical/medical museum was it?

Containing a uteri collection by any chance?

Lispenard does seem to specialise in disorders of the genitalia etc- Nemo
**************************************

I know what you're thinking too,Nemo...:kiss:

Tumblety mentions a possible uteri collection at Lispenard's and this gets transformed into his uteri collection by Conover.

Nice work old bean.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Brooklyn Daily Eagle
May 10, 1865

(Tumblety) originally started in his career, we believe, in Rochester, N.Y., where, when quite a boy, he was employed at first as servant or errand boy in the office of Dr. Lispenard, on Exchange place, a celebrated special practitioner. He afterwards studied medicine with Lispenard, and graduated in a short time, and it is stated left Rochester unceremoniously.

This is a great thread. Lots of new stuff in it. I really liked the photo on Post 10. It's not often we get to see one of the buildings where Tumblety worked.

[Nemo]

There's a lot of photos and pdfs available on the Rochester site Tim - well worth trawling through - there's a lot about the early history of Rochester and anecdotes from people living in the area - including some major crimes

The type of place Tumblety worked is described as a druggist and would never involve surgery I think - there were doctors available for the serious stuff

The whole area seems awash with circuses/Indians/freakshows/waxworks etc

Must have been a busy place and full of tourists I imagine

Tumblety's house is described as being in an area with few houses and no close neighbours

I think you will be interested in the history of the Irish/savings banks/Fenians/Civil war stuff there

Daguerreotypes were available in many places and the Eastman Kodak place was close to Tumblety's place of work - there was a Daguerreotype studio in the museum above - I feel certain he would have been interested in photography

[Tim Riordan]

One of the most inteesting things about Dr. Lispenard is that he never existed. This was a name created by Dr. Ezra J. Reynolds to cover the less respectable aspects of his practice. He used it in Albany up to 1850 and then moved to Rochester in 1851.

Best,

Tim

[Nina Brown]

1860 census: Rochester, Monroe County, New York
Ezra J. Reynolds - 33 - physician - real estate $3000/personal estate $2000 - b.NY
Georgianna - 29 - b.NY
Eliza McDermott - 19 - Domestic

1870 census: Rochester, Monroe County, New York
Ezra Reynolds - 43 - Surgeon - b.NY
Georgianna - 40 - Keeps House - b.NY
Mary ? - 17 - domestic - b.Prussia

1876 Directory Rochester New York
Ezra J. Reynolds, Deceased June 1875
Mrs. Georgianna Reynolds, bds. 34 Court

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/186720directory.jpg

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Ezra J. Reynolds sure picked a good name for himself.

THE WOMEN OF LISPENARD'S MEADOWS

One of the most intriguing and evanescent legends about the Lower Greenwich neighborhood is the tale of the Jackson Whites. When the British occupied New York during the American Revolution, they had to keep satisfied the thousands of British and Hessian troops billeted here. The story goes that military authorities turned to a man named Jackson, who sailed for England where he either enticed or kidnapped 3,500 British prostitutes. He then packed them in 20 leaky old boats and sailed for the American Colonies. One vessel sank in mid-ocean, so Jackson sent another boat to the West Indies where it picked up a load of replacements, all of African origin. When the prostitutes landed in New York, they were marched to Lispenard's Meadows, where they found a large stockade encircling a group of crude huts that would be their home. When soldiers were ready for fun, they repaired to Lispenard's Meadows and knocked on the stockade door for a few hours with the "Jackson Whites" or the "Jackson Blacks". In 1783, when the British hurriedly evacuated New York, somebody ran to Lispenard's Meadows and unlatched the stockade door, releasing the unfortunate women. About 500 of the prostitutes trekked north up the Hudson, while the remainder somehow crossed the river and, three-thousandstrong, marched west into New Jersey, finally settling in the nearby Ramapo Mountains. They were supposedly the ancestors of a group still living in those hills known as the Jackson Whites or the Ramapo Mountain People.

From “A Short History of Hudson Square” by the Friends of Hudson Square.

Regards,

Simon

[How Brown]

Thanks a lot for the story Simon !!!

"The story goes that military authorities turned to a man named Jackson, who sailed for England where he either enticed or kidnapped 3,500 British prostitutes."

I'd like to meet a guy who could entice 3,500 British women...and compare notes.

Uh oh...:brick:Ouch !

[Nemo]

It clearly states that he was a surgeon and has an operating room

So what type of operations would have gone on?

Wart removal and the like? - what I would term "external" surgery?

Or would he have undertaken invasive surgery? - which would be very interesting as Tumblety would probably have been his assistant and possible anaesthetist (choroform/ether)

[Nemo]

Mill St early 20th C

5120

[How Brown]

Tim Riordan mentioned this:

"One of the most interesting things about Dr. Lispenard is that he never existed. This was a name created by Dr. Ezra J. Reynolds to cover the less respectable aspects of his practice. He used it in Albany up to 1850 and then moved to Rochester in 1851.

Look at the advertisement Nina Brown provided and note that Reynolds/Lispenard claimed to be " Combined Talent".....as if there are two "doctors" at that location.

[Nemo]

I get an image of the patient being greeted by him and then being ushered in to see the doctor who turns up in 5 mins looking like his twin brother with a false 'tache on

There were 2 people there though wasn't there?

Lispenard isn't Tumblety is it?

[Nemo]

Nemo:

Thanks for the reply,old bean.

Just for the record....there is no record of him ever being married other than the comment made by Sanford Conover/Colonel Dunham to a reporter in 1888. Conover is the only source for even a reference to a woman possibly being in his life in an intimate way. As it stands,there is no record of Tumblety being married at any time and as with so many elements of the WM Case in so many other different scenarios...by the repetitive use of an unconfirmed statement...it sort of becomes a "fact" that he had been married at one time.


Hi Howard - I just came across a reference to the fact that Tumblety was denoted as a "widower" on his death certificate - which is a tenuous reference to his being married at some point

[How Brown]

Holy Cats Nemo !!

Have you a link for me to see that death certificate? I have never seen the document...but rather curiously, haven't seen too much in the way of counterpoint when people such as myself say that the marriage was an alleged one.

I'm ready to stand corrected,because I cannot remember anyone as a matter of fact ever pointing this out until now.

You're one valuable man,Nemo...thanks for this because it would be terrific if those of us who completely dismissed Tumblety's possible marriage as suggested by Conover found out that it could be true !!!:high5:

Hail Nemo !:kiss:

[Nemo]

Hi Howard

I only have this reference to the death certificate from "The New Brunswick Reader" written by local researcher and writer, Daniel F. Johnson

About half way down the page in the paragraph beneath the picture of the guy on the horse with a greyhound, where it states...

"Although evidence subsequently emerged exposing his deep hatred for women and his preference for young men, his death certificate of 1903 states that he was a widower."

Stewart Evans has a copy of the death certificate according to this thread at Casebook..

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=835

...and I just found an old post from AIP commenting on the same...

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/8122.html

..though no-one acknowledged his post at the time

PS another reference here from "Malta Joe"

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/13173.html

"To answer your question CB, concerning Tumblety's previous marriage, I think his hatred of prostitutes grew from his Montreal trouble from that Dumas character and not from any of his phony marriage tales. When Tumblety used this marriage talk, it was employed as a convenient excuse for his odd behavior.
"I go out late into the New York night Mrs. McNamara so I can pray for more dear departed wife at a monastery."
"I don't invite women to my symposiums because I had a previous bad marriage."
Does anybody really think that if a harlot would marry a wealthy man like Tumblety, that she would retain her job as a prostitute like Tumblety claimed? His silly marriage tale was designed to camouflage his homosexuality. His family would also protect the Tumblety name by listing him as a widower on his death certificate. I think they knew this woman never existed. If she did exist, they wouldn't have mentioned her. The probate storm that was brewing over Tumblety's estate didn't need some clown to hold everything up by claiming to be a legitimate son."

[How Brown]

Nemo:

Thanks for providing the old Casebook threads with the comment by AIP....and also the other from SPE.:high5:

One question here...and I naturally believe you when you mention the article from Mr. Johnson and the reference to the 'widow' status...just so there is no possible confusion between us.:kiss: I also do not dispute AIP's comment:


"Surely Tumblety is listed as a 'widower' on his death certificate."

The scan on the one link provided by SPE is from 1850 and obviously,with all due respect, not from 1903.. I could not determine whether what ,if any, marital status was present on the document from 1850. Can you make it out,Nemo?

I didn't see Mr. Freeman remark on the marital status in any of his posts regarding Tumbelty either...

It looks like I am gonna have to go and round up SPE:boxing: to see if he has retained the 1903 death cert...or track down AIP somehow for the document.....

Nice work Nemo and thank you for this important information.

I still can't understand why the comments some ( Lets just say "Me",in this case...since I recently did say it...) have made to counter the statement made by Conover have been unchallenged with the information AIP supplied or SPE has and undoubtedly shared as he usually does.:banghead:

[Nemo]

Hi Howard

I don't think that is the death certificate that SPE posted

I know that in various documents made during his life, Tumblety was described as "single" for marital status

I think we would need to see the death certificate - but, as stated in one of the posts linked to above, the whole marriage story may have been a sham on Tumblety's part to divert attention away from his homosexuality

There is a small possibility that his family continued this ruse by listing him as a "widower" on his death certificate

[How Brown]

Nemo:

No buddy...that is a census report from 1850.

Regardless of whether Tumblety was married at one time or not, my point was that I had never seen or heard of this reference to his death certificate with the designation, "widower" before. It may be due to me not being as attentive to the developments in Tumblety research as I should have been.:banghead::banghead::banghead:
In addition, I, and maybe one or two other folks over the years, have stated that despite Conover's contention in the late 1888 interview with the "Major" that we only had Conover's claim to go by for a reference to his marriage, when that,according to the article you mentioned is now untrue due to Johnson's comments on the matter... and that no one had ever countered my statement with a mention of this "widower" designation also surprised me until I gave it some thought a few minutes ago.


I also agree with your last post in that while paperwork may declare him as being a widower, there's still the probability that it was a phony designation...and those who are keen on Tumblety research and do know of the designation didn't or don't jump to the conclusion that it verifies anything and therefore are somewhat deliberate in accepting the likelihood of it being a fact.

[Tim Riordan]

Here is the death certificate. Notice that under "Conjugal Condition" all options are struck through except "Widowed."

Best,

Tim

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Tumbletydeathcert.jpg

[How Brown]

Tim:

This is an absolutely wonderful gesture on your part. Thanks very very much.

Ummm...without sounding like an unappreciative nitpicker...is the racial designation satisfactory? I recognize "Negro and Mixed" are struck, but the word Black isn't...unless I am viewing it in the wrong way.

The only reason I mention this Tim...is that while the designations for his conjugal condition have marks on them,might it not also look like widowed has a mark on it as well...or is just me?

Six or one half dozen of the other in the scheme of things,perhaps....but what are your feelings towards the concept of him being married at one time and if not, do you think there was any reason for him to make that claim?

Thanks very much Tim...:high5::high5::high5:

[Nemo]

Excellent - Thanks Tim

That's quite clear then - though the doctor might have gained his information from those present or from hospital records - both of which could have been influenced by Tumblety's stories

If a family member gave the info, I don't think he/she would have fabricated a marriage to cover-up any ideas of homosexuality

It was no shame to die a batchelor

Sir Charles Hall - who was the recorder of London in the 1890's (whom I can find little info about) died unmarried and childless - no need to concoct or arrange a marriage (NB I am not suggesting Sir Charles was homosexual)

[Tim Riordan]

How,

In the case of both Color and Sex, the choices to be cancelled are all grouped together and a single slash is used to indicate them. While the term “Black” is not directly cancelled, the line goes through the continuation of that choice. The term “Widowed” is in the middle and so the person who completed the form had to cancel each of the other choices individually. It looks like individual pen strokes on all three of the other choices. I see no pen stroke on “Widowed.”

As far as I know, there are only three references to Tumblety having been married:
Dunham’s story about the prostitute
Mrs. MacNamara’s story about him going to pray for his dead wife
The designation of “Widowed” on the death certificate.

I would agree with Nemo that it was the family’s way of covering for his homosexuality.

Best,

Tim

[Nemo]

Hi Tim

It definitely says white/male/widowed to me

Just to clarify, I did suggest however that (in my opinion) the family would not have concocted the marriage to cover up homosexuality

It is a possibility though, so I'm not sure if this verifies anything

[How Brown]

Thanks for two things Tim !

One being the reminder of Mrs.Macnamara's statement ( which I knew of but attributed it to being a claim made by Tumbelty on the spur of the moment...unlike Conover's long diatribe and this previously unseen ( by me ) death cert. which are a little "different" to me in the regard of his marriage.

The second is your candor on the basis of the claim made that he had been married. I had been hesitant to ask you since I am under the impression that you are working on a book on Tumblety and may have been a little reluctant to let out your views before your book's release.

Thank you Tim. This sharing of the death cert makes my shoulder feel a little better:high5:

[Tim Riordan]

Nemo,

Sorry to have misread your post.

How,

In his 1872 biography, Tumblety states that he had never been married but hoped to be so some day. Every census in which his name appears (1850, 1870, 1800, and 1900) lists him as single not married or widowed. The idea of Tumblety going out late to go pray for his dead wife at the Cathedral makes me smile. He may have been going out late but praying was not on the agenda.

As for the book, the publisher has it and I have no secrets.

Best,

Tim

[Joe Chetcuti]

Nemo,

You really know how to dig into old message boards! The year 2004 seems like ages ago. A lot of research has developed since then, and we have a clearer viewpoint of things now.

As you pointed out, in 2004 I derisively spoke of Tumblety's excuse for going out late at night, "I have to pray for my dear departed wife at a monastery." That sounds just as silly today as it did five years ago!

As for the story about Tumblety's previous marriage, I still don't buy into it. I can't see a harlot remaining a harlot after marrying into Tumblety's wealth. It doesn't matter to me if Conover fabricated the story or if Tumblety circulated the story. Either way I'm not sold.

As for my 2004 comment that Tumblety's family listed him as a widower on his death certificate, I have changed my outlook on that. Back in 2004, I hadn't seen Tumblety's death certificate yet, but I knew he was listed as a widower on it. Since then, I have seen a copy of his death certificate, and I no longer necessarily think that it was Tumblety's family who listed the 'doctor' as a widower. It's quite possible that Tumblety himself claimed to have been a widower when asked by the hospital staff in St. Louis. (It was reported that Tumblety died with no family members around him.)

Thanks for the walk down memory lane, Nemo. Reading the old posts from 2004 is a bit strange though. Back then I strongly considered Tumblety to have been the Batty Street Lodger, but over the years more research has been put into it, and that lodger should now just be classified as a mystery man.

This might be a good a idea for a new thread some day, Howard. "In what ways have your viewpoints on Whitechapel events changed over the years?"

[How Brown]

Try today and not just someday down the line,Joltin' Joe.

Thanks for mentioning it. I'm on the caper as you read this.

[Nemo]

Thanks for that insight Joe

That is what I was thinking - if the doctor attending Tumblety spoke to him or the hospital staff, then any information probably emanated from Tumblety anyway - if you confirm that no family was present, then the doctor has to have gotten that information from those mentioned

Therefore the designation "widower" does not verify anything really

I don't agree with the assumption that the woman would definitely not continue as a harlot after gaining an affluent husband

There are stories from Roman times onward where wealthy and influential women have attended at a brothel for "various reasons"

In a modern context, I know of an Asian bride who was taken from a brothel as a bride for an Englishman. She lived in the UK for a while in relative luxury yet decided to return to her native country and the brothel

We don't know how tight Tumblety was with his money either - she could have pulled a few tricks for pin money

there are a number of scenarios so I think it a mistake to assume that she would not have continued as a harlot

PS Apologies Joe - I just realised you must be Malta Joe - lol

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

I just wanted to add a few things.

Tim's book is at the publishers? Really, really excellent news!!

Having said that, I have to disagree with Tim when he writes of the three references to Tumblety having been married that one of them is "Mrs. MacNamara’s story about him going to pray for his dead wife." The real source for this claim is even more unbelievable:

“Everybody in the neighborhood seemed to have heard of Dr. Twomblety’s arrival, and he is well known in all the stores and saloons for several blocks. One merchant who knows him well said:
Mrs. McNamara is a queer old lady, very religious and kind-hearted. The doctor began stopping with her years ago and he has lived there ever since he was in New York. He used to explain his long absence at night, when he was prowling about the streets, by telling her that he had to go to a monastery to pray for his dear departed wife.” (The New York World, 4 December, 1888.)

The "merchant" is the source of this lie made to fool Mrs. McNamara.

The final thing is that the Death Cirtificate has Tumblety's age wrong so it does contain errors which, as Joe has already pointed out, may be explained by the reports that he died with no family members around him.

Wolf.

[Nemo]

Hmmm yes - scant evidence indeed

So we can imply then that Tumblety (and possibly family) were deeply ashamed of his homosexuality and would not publicise/advertise the fact to others? Or was it just illegal?

[How Brown]

Nemo:

Off the top of my head, I cannot remember whether Tumblety was a benefactor to his family throughout the years to the extent that they could be considered "taken care of.." Tim or Wolf or SPE or Joe or even R.J. may know though.

Because if he did take care of them financially..not overtly,but decently...then his predilection for "boy toys" might not have been such a "shame" to them, if you get my drift.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Howard,

Tumblety's brothers had to work for a living, so I doubt if they shared in much of the quack's wealth. It's true that Tumblety's nephew in Vallejo (John Hayes) received a nice horse from Uncle Francis as a gift in 1875. But I don't think the family received any extravagant riches from Francis while he was alive.



Nemo,

Yup, I was Malta Joe in the old days. I wasn't trying to be a wise guy back then. http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/13.gif I was just paying a memorial tribute to my father and four grandparents who were born in Malta.

The May 30, 1903 Newark Advocate (Ohio) reported that no friend or relative was present at Tumblety's deathbed. The newspaper mistakenly reported that he was 82 years old. So the contents in Tumblety's death certificate may have traveled on the press wires.

Tumblety's family was consistently accurate when telling the age of the 'doctor.' Wolf was right in thinking that Tumblety's family probably didn't contribute anything to the St. Louis death certificate. When he was listed as an 82 year old widower, that mis-information may have come from Tumblety himself.

Tim mentioned to me awhile back that his book was heading for the publishers, so it will just be a matter of time now before we all get treated to a good read. I have a feeling that some facts about Tumblety that were only known to a few will soon be shared with the public. Courtesy of Tim's book, of course.