Misconceptions

[How Brown]

I tried to recover some of the 40 or so miscons' that we had from before,from the old JTR Worldwide site,but they are down,due to inactivity...
Well.....Here's a couple off the top of my pin-like head.....

1. He was disorganized
2. He carried a black bag and wore a top hat....
3. He had to be a local resident of Whitechapel and/or the East End...
4. He didn't need a knowledge of the location of the internal organs
5. There's an "F.M." on Mary Kelly's wall
6. The location of the found apron from Mrs. Eddowes( 4th victim) relative to the graffiti is irrelevant. It was just a coincidence.
7. Someone would travel from France by ferry or Liverpool( already top-heavy in prostitutes ) to kill in London.
8. He placed coins on the ground in a pattern or left tailoring (!) marks on Mrs. Eddowes eyelids or thereabouts.
9. The removal of internal organs meant nothing other than souvenirs of a kill...
10. That because a household of previously normal immigrants would be forced to tolerate the inclusion of a mentally-tormented family member,the only way to eliminate and remove the unwanted member would be to slay 5 unassociated people in an effort to bring the expulsion about....wanna buy a bridge?
11.George Hutchinson told the truth.
12.Joe Barnett didn't tell the truth.
13.England,like America or any other Western nation,would acknowledge a White Man would be involved in occult practices in 1888 or even a non-sexual serial killer who coveted internal organs for personal intentions.
14. Jack The Ripper was a sexual serial killer.
15. Jack The Ripper HAD to be a model of what 20th Century profilers believe he was...disorganized,low self-esteem,25-30.
16. He was a heterosexual,because only heteros kill women....
17. Jack The Ripper was "sheltered" by "his people' to avoid Majority justice on a minority member,despite the majority presence of minorities in the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee and the rewards offered by Minority leaders in the East End. This is based on anti-immigrant sentiments,typical of the day and of its time.
18. Jack The Ripper WAS apprehended,but this fact was not divulged to the people who were in jeopardy the most.
19. The police presence "backed" off in early 1889,because the Police and Crown were sure they had their man. ( Actually,it was due to economic reasons,not that they "had " him.)
20. That "intellectualism", not criminology and research,will solve the case. Theories,as wild as Dr.Gull, Prince Eddy,and the current monstrosity,the A?R theory,are anything other than mental masturbation.
21. That an American could not have "done" it.
22. That a woman( Jill The Ripper) could have.
23. That the victims,despite being alcoholics,would allow themselves to be "taken" by someone who resembles the Kosminski character. These people, the Kosminski's of the world,are usually the victims of crime,not the perps....
24. That the British police were lackadaisical about their job.
25. That the British police heirarchy( especially my pet peeve,Anderson) treated this case as if a wife of the House Of Lords was butchered.
26. Since prostitutes were killed,the motive was sexual
27. That the Ripper HAD to have continued his killing after the Nov. 9th massacre of MJK
28. No known suspects fill the criteria of a bona fide suspect( motive,means,and opportunity...)
.................................................. .................................................. ....
How about you? Dislike any of the ones I placed? Have some that you feel I overlooked? Good........Then place 'em !

[Jennifer Pegg]

Hi
I have to say Ivor I love number five. I don't think its a misconception that patty knows a lot on these boards though!!

Jennifer

[RJ Palmer]

Howard--I'd add that it's a misconception to state that the murders happened on a 'week-end' and this somehow indicates that the murderer was in steady employment. Bullpucky, I say. If you recall in the early days of the Beltway Sniper case, the profilers were seeing a 'pattern' to the Sniper shootings, since none of them occurred on Sat/Sun. A few shootings, later, one bloke was shot on a Saturday and the theory went down the tubes.

Time and again I've read of working-class slobs (like us) working six days a week...sometimes as much as 72 a week. Those in "steady employment" didn't have a bloody week-end; and the whole theory is nearly meaningless since so many in the East End were unemployed or underemployed anyway.

The murders look place on Mondays, Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays...four days of the Seven. With only Five or Six murders that we can be fairly confident about, this is simply not enough information to come to any solid conclusion about a 'pattern.' Polly Nichols certainly wasn't killed on the'week-end' by East End standards. If anything, I'd suggest the murderer *wasn't* in steady employment, which of course, includes Tumblety, D'onston, Kosminski, Hutchinson, and a number of popular suspects. RP

[How Brown]

Another myth bites the dust, R.J. !!! Thanks for pointing out this overlooked fact !!!

[How Brown]

Good points,old man...
Another modern myth and one that was broadcast in a documentary promoting Kosminski ( It featured Mr. Begg, John Greive and John Ross,who uttered the myth rather cockily and matter-of-factly. Ross is the curator of London's Black Museum) as the killer, is the myth that in early 1889,the police presence in The East End was reduced,due to the fact the police knew they had their man...

Not so. On page 346 of Sugden's CHofJTR, Mr. Sugden points out clearly that this was due to "financial" reasons.

Furthermore,after the murder of Mrs. MacKenzie in July of '89, the police patrols were immediately re-established.

Whoops ! I already posted this above ! Sorry.............

One note: Its a good thing that JTR didn't kill a woman on the other 3 days of the calendar,or we would be faced with the theory he was trying to "complete" a "one a day" pattern.

[Karen]

Oh God!! There are so many misconceptions pertaining to the Ripper case, that I could actually write a 1268 page report on them. I'll just cover the ones that I find the most frustrating:

- that Jack The Ripper was one person
- that Jack was a sexual serial killer
- that Jack was a Jew
- that Abberline was incompetent (I will fight this one to the death)
- that the woman murdered in Miller's Court was not Mary Jane Kelly
- that Elizabeth Stride was not a Ripper victim

[How Brown]

- that Jack The Ripper was one person
- that Jack was a sexual serial killer
- that Jack was a Jew
- that Abberline was incompetent (I will fight this one to the death)
- that the woman murdered in Miller's Court was not Mary Jane Kelly
- that Elizabeth Stride was not a Ripper victim

Not a bad mini-list,Karen...

Anyone else?

[Karen]

Thank you, How.

[Magpie]

That Jack was the first serial killer
That modern police methods (pick one) would have certainly caught the Ripper
That Emma Smith was a Ripper victim
That there was a conspiracy of murderers
That the Royal Family was involved
That the Police knew for sure who the ripper was.
That the Government knew who the Ripper was and suppressed his identity.
That Jack was a sadist.

[Magpie]

Some more:

That being distubed is the only possible explanation for the lack of mutilations in Stride's case

That the lack of murders between the double event and Kelly means that Jack was lying low, or that there were no failed attempts during that time.

That Stride was the only occasion where Jack was disturbed or interrupted.

[Robert Linford]

That Jack had no sense of humour. He may have been as playful as a pup.

Robert

[Magpie]

That Jack had no sense of humour. He may have been as playful as a pup.



No sense of humour? But everyone knows he was a major cut-up!

5 minutes with Jack and you'd be splitting your sides and busting a gut!

Everytime he performed in London, he slayed 'em!

No sense of humour indeed....

[Robert Linford]

And as Mitre Sq shows, he had exquisite timing!

[admin tim]

From a well-known telly program of the 1960's:

Now, no one knows who this man was; no one ever saw his face. His identity has always been one of the world’s great mysteries. He killed only women, and only a certain kind of women, but his murders were often accompanied by strange and forbidding rites. For months on end he terrorized London, defying whole divisions of police, and it was they who nicknamed him “Jack the Ripper”.

Well, he disappeared from the scene as suddenly as he had come, but similar murders began to occur at regular intervals in other countries. There are many who believe that Jack the Ripper still walks the earth, still continues his diabolical activities.

[Robert Linford]

Still ripping in the 1960s? He'd be getting on for 100 at least.

I hope the meals on wheels ladies were warned.:)

Robert

[Bill]

That anyone was killed at all - the whole thing being a carefully staged fiction in order to draw attention away from the riots of the previous year - much in the same way that disgruntled Romans were assuaged by the violent spectacles of the arena.

Bill

[Tom_Wescott]

Anyhooo....

A few more misconceptions:

* That Polly Nichols' bonnet was new
* That Dutfield's Yard (Stride) was the most precarious murder spot
* That the police did not investigate Michael Kidney in the murder of Stride
* That Charles Warren personally rubbed out the graffiti
* That Schwartz was all along considered a crucial witness
* That Joseph Lawende was certain the woman he saw was Eddowes
* That Stride was killed with a different knife than Chapman or Eddowes
* That Tumblety was a satanist
* That a bayonet was used on Tabram
* That the 'From Hell' letter is the one most likely to be legitimate

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hey Howie buddy, I know this thread is just for fun, but a subjective opinion is not a misconception
:thumbsupbud:

Take this one for instance:
6. The location of the found apron from Mrs. Eddowes( 4th victim) relative to the graffiti is irrelevant. It was just a coincidence.

Are you saying that the relationship between the two is NOT a coincidence?
Thats a subjective opinion buddy, not a misconception.
I think its a coincidence, but thats also just my opinion.
Also your numbers 7, 9, 11, 12, 14, and so on are all opinions.

Another by Defelicitytective:
- that Elizabeth Stride was not a Ripper victim

Some will fight tooth and nail to argue she was a victim of JtR, and others, like "yours truely", are just as committed to arguing she was not.
But it all boils down to a subjective opinion, there are no facts that can 'prove' either way - hence, neither opinion is a misconception.

If you notice Tom's list appears more fact based, except:
* That the 'From Hell' letter is the one most likely to be legitimate

We cannot be sure one way or the other, so it is only a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact?

Thought the next two come as a bit of a surprise to me:
* That Stride was killed with a different knife than Chapman or Eddowes
* That a bayonet was used on Tabram
I was not aware there was enough evidence to indicate one way or the other as a point of fact, Hence, are these not also just opinions?

Don't these lists give away the personal biase of the poster?

(Tumblety another Black Magician?)

Seems like a couple of figurines of D'Onstan & Tumblety would make good book-ends.
;)

[Tom_Wescott]

Take this one for instance:
6. The location of the found apron from Mrs. Eddowes( 4th victim) relative to the graffiti is irrelevant. It was just a coincidence.

Are you saying that the relationship between the two is NOT a coincidence?
Thats a subjective opinion buddy, not a misconception.
I
Another by Defelicitytective:
- that Elizabeth Stride was not a Ripper victim

Some will fight tooth and nail to argue she was a victim of JtR, and others, like "yours truely", are just as committed to arguing she was not.
But it all boils down to a subjective opinion, there are no facts that can 'prove' either way - hence, neither opinion is a misconception.

If you notice Tom's list appears more fact based, except:
* That the 'From Hell' letter is the one most likely to be legitimate

We cannot be sure one way or the other, so it is only a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact?

Thought the next two come as a bit of a surprise to me:
* That Stride was killed with a different knife than Chapman or Eddowes
* That a bayonet was used on Tabram
I was not aware there was enough evidence to indicate one way or the other as a point of fact, Hence, are these not also just opinions?;)

Actually, Howard's 'graffiti' comment was spot on. What he was saying is that the blatant statement that the graffiti was coincidental is a misconception, because that has not been proved. With my 'From Hell' comment, you'll notice many people accept it as fact that this letter enjoys more evidence in support of it, although this is not the case at all.
Regarding Stride, there has yet to be a solid argument to exclude her from Jack's list. Note that I say solid. And it is occassionally stated as fact that she was not a Jack victim, although it is anything but a fact. It is also erroneously stated that Dr. Phillips and Blackwell thought the knife used on her was one found the next day by Thomas Coram in another street. This is not true at all. There is no evidence that a different knife was used on STride. As for the bayonet, Dr. Killeen never stated this as an opinion, it's misunderstood by many that he did. So all of these you've mentioned specifically do, in fact, belong on a list of misconceptions, though I can see how it could be a little confusing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[How Brown]

Yo Wicker Man !!!

Ahem....gulp....I wrote them down when I was a little more stupid than I am today....if that is possible.

I actually know less now than I ever did. Seriously.

Good of you to point out the subjectivity.

Your dummy buddy...

Umm...How

[Wickerman]

Actually buddy I was just teasing (just for jolly).
I'm pretty sure if I took the trouble to make such a list the outcome would be similar, it would reflect some of my own biases.
At the end of the day though this thread is a good idea for the millions of readers who have not had the same access to information that regular members have.

[Wickerman]

Actually, Howard's 'graffiti' comment was spot on. What he was saying is that the blatant statement that the graffiti was coincidental is a misconception, because that has not been proved.


Ok, what I was meaning was this, there has always been an assumption that the graffiti & apron are related.
We cannot say for sure if the graffiti was written long before (hours or days) the appearance of the apron, or whether it was written by the killer. Therefore, any assumption that they are related is a misconception.
In this case you cannot prove a coincidence, you can only prove an association, but this has not yet been done.



With my 'From Hell' comment, you'll notice many people accept it as fact that this letter enjoys more evidence in support of it, although this is not the case at all.
Regarding Stride, there has yet to be a solid argument to exclude her from Jack's list. Note that I say solid. And it is occassionally stated as fact that she was not a Jack victim, although it is anything but a fact. It is also erroneously stated that Dr. Phillips and Blackwell thought the knife used on her was one found the next day by Thomas Coram in another street. This is not true at all. There is no evidence that a different knife was used on STride. As for the bayonet, Dr. Killeen never stated this as an opinion, it's misunderstood by many that he did. So all of these you've mentioned specifically do, in fact, belong on a list of misconceptions, though I can see how it could be a little confusing.


As I said before, whether Stride was a Ripper victim or not is a matter of opinion, which you seem to acknowledge. That being the case then neither argument can be a misconception, because you cannot prove either argument wrong. They are both genuine opinions.

It might be a misconception that the 'big knife' was used on Stride, simply because there are statements to the contrary (that it would be an unlikely weapon to have caused her wound).

If I remember correctly Killeen stated "some kind of dagger". The suggestion that it might have been a bayonet comes from her recent association with soldiers coupled with the realization that a dagger-type bayonet was available to the military at this time.
So yes, there is a misconception that the weapon used was identifed as a bayonet, it was not.
But, whether it actually was a bayonet still remains a matter of opinion.

[Tom_Wescott]

If I remember correctly Killeen stated "some kind of dagger". The suggestion that it might have been a bayonet comes from her recent association with soldiers coupled with the realization that a dagger-type bayonet was available to the military at this time.
So yes, there is a misconception that the weapon used was identifed as a bayonet, it was not.
But, whether it actually was a bayonet still remains a matter of opinion.

All very correct. However, I question whether or not a dagger was even used. For 38 of the wounds Killeen suggested a penknife (pocket knife) as the weapon. Only for the would to the heart did he suggest a dagger, because of the larger opening in the breastplate. However, stabbing any knife through such a surface, akin to stabbing a knife into wood, will cause the blade to lodge. To get it out you must move it from side to side, working it free, and in the process creating a larger opening. Therefore, the penknife could very well have caused ALL the wounds to Tabram. As for the bayonet, someone else ( I can't recall if it was the coroner or a juryman) asked Killeen if a bayonet could have caused the wound, for precisely the reason you state, and Killeen could not rule it out. But that's far different from an endorsement.

Regarding the graffiti, there actually is good reason to believe it was fresh and probably no more than 2 or 3 hours old. Although, of course, that still doesn't mean JTR himself wrote it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. I should qualify my above statement, since what I wrote conflicts with a doctor's testimony. Had the doctor in question been Phillips, Bond, or Sequeira, I would hesitate to contradict their testimony, due to their considerable experience. In the case of Killeen, he was as green as grass and quite inexperienced with such murders. And I'm certainly not the only proponent of the 'no dagger' theory. Others far less naive than myself see the sense in it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

...... To get it out you must move it from side to side, working it free, and in the process creating a larger opening. Therefore, the penknife could very well have caused ALL the wounds to Tabram....

Almost sense a touch of deja-vu there. Agreed, an observation I raised myself some years ago. One qualification though, the blade of a dagger is considerably wider than that of a penknife. The above observation only takes into account the length of the slit in the bone, not the width.
Any sideways movement of a penknife would surely break the blade off so that would not account for a wider hole (dagger-size as opposed to penknife-size), assuming it was indeed wider and longer.

Consider this, if people who are not medically trained can come up with a solution such as this, dare we assume Dr Killeen was not capable of such a resolution?

I do prefer the single weapon theory myself, but I am not so sure the good doctor had not already considered the obvious, as we have.

Jon

[Tom_Wescott]

Jon,

It may have been you who put the idea in my head those many years ago! It would help if I knew who you are. But yes, in a perfect world, Killeen would have considered all possibilities. But, then even experienced doctors such as Bond and Hebbert failed to notice MJK was wearing a chemise. And then there's Llewellyn and his ridiculous observations regarding Nichols. It will be remembered that when Nichols was found dead the prevelant theory those first few days was that she was felled by a gang, ala Emma Smith. If Killeen were working from the same premise with Tabram, he might have seen a wound a different size than the others and concluded two weapons. Of course, the other possibility is that he was right on the mark with his conclusions. Seems you and I agree though that it shouldn't necessarily be taken for granted that two different weapons were used on Tabram.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Christopher Lee rules.

[Jennifer Pegg]

this is totally unrelated.

but anyway - while i too enjoy the work of Christopher lee - i have to say i just find wicker man strange

Jenni

[Tom_Wescott]

i have to say i just find wicker man strange

Jenni

The movie or the minion? :)

[Jennifer Pegg]

I meant the movie.

its pretty random isnt it?

As for the poster

cant say ive been paying that much attention.

he seems ok!

[Robert Linford]

There's nothing random about Britt Ekland!

[Tom_Wescott]

If the producers hadn't cut 15 minutes (now lost) out of the Wicker Man, it might not seem so random. What great scenery! It's now a remake with Nicholas Cage. Yuck.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jennifer Pegg]

I take it Nick plays the unlucky man trapped on the island with the random fruitcakes ?

[Wickerman]

Jon,
It may have been you who put the idea in my head those many years ago! It would help if I knew who you are.

I'm the guy who sent you a book some years ago, cant remember the title, was it by Pamela Ball? :smoker:
You were Red Demon in those days.

I'm also the same schmuck who tried to convince the Donstanite 'click' that the 'flaps' of skin on Eddowes cheeks were made by a knife hacked across her face.... :banghead:

Contra to the 'triangle' nonsense..:offinhead:


....But, then even experienced doctors such as Bond and Hebbert failed to notice MJK was wearing a chemise...

They cannot have failed, I think it is our generation who does not grasp the terminology of the Victorian era.


P.S. Christopher Lee rules.

My favourite Dracula..

Best Wishes, Jon Smyth
(no secrets, I just thought most people knew)

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm the guy who sent you a book some years ago, cant remember the title, was it by Pamela Ball? :smoker:
You were Red Demon in those days.

Yes! Okay, so you're not some uppity newbie. You're an uppity old-timer! Wow, you predate me on the Casebook.

I'm also the same schmuck who tried to convince the Donstanite 'click' that the 'flaps' of skin on Eddowes cheeks were made by a knife hacked across her face....

Hey, we have high moments, and then we have these moments. Don't worry, happens to the best of them. :)

Best Wishes, Jon Smyth
(no secrets, I just thought most people knew)

There we go! Most people probably did know, but I may be more thick than them. Funny thing is, Jon Smyth is who came to mind when I saw your name before, because it doesn't have an 'h'. But I figured 'no way'. Anyway, it's all good now. Glad to see you're still around.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jennifer Pegg]

Hey Tom,
lots of people predate me on the casebook, including you - but i try not to call them all upity!!

Wow - it was Jon all along!! (thats amusing!)

Why cant people use their real names its so much easier!?

Trixiebella Feluja Mabel Consantine Eoila Tripod-Case Wingbat Lees- Pegg the third

[Dan Norder]

I'm also the same schmuck who tried to convince the Donstanite 'click' that the 'flaps' of skin on Eddowes cheeks were made by a knife hacked across her face....

That was you? I forgot who came up with that. That one always made a lot of sense to me.

[Vila]

I have an affinity for #5 on Howard's list: 'There's an "F.M." on Mary Kelly's wall' since as far as I know I was the first person on the old Casebook who argued that the FM was an artifact of repeated photocopying of one of the limited number of prints of the classic crime scene photo. As I recall, it was in 1995 or '96 when Spryder asked me to scan photos out of Ripper books for the illos he used in one of the older versions of the Casebook site. (I was the only Casebooker he knew that owned a scanner, back then.) The marks on the wall only became visible after one made a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy... I still am of the opinion that if they ever existed at all, they were marks that someone had made on the back of an old photoprint.

Yes, it's true. I even predate the Diary Controversy. :smoker:

Vila

[How Brown]

Vila:

Since you proofread the Ten Commandments at the behest of Moses ,you predate zippers,sneakers,flip top cigarettes,pop top beer bottles,and sliced bread. Yet,somewhat younger than Timethuselah Mosley.:rolleyes:

The "F.M." is either blood or a photographic anomaly,which you mentioned.

That section ought to be updated and revised since some of the "miscons" are only reactions and often over reactions to the claims of those times,not necessarily true,but still possible however irrelevant.

Don't tell Lynners I mentioned your real age:)