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View Full Version : Parallels between Tumbelty & D'Onston: A List


How Brown
05-11-2009, 08:39 PM
By no means the only 12 or so on any complete list...here are some of note:

1. Both had a mentor.

Tumblety had his Dr. Lispenard...and D'Onston his Lord Lytton. Tumblety's mentor was in the same sort of field that he would venture into...and D'Onston would not only plagiarize Lytton's work on at least one occasion, he bragged that he had once met him.

2. Both had some "medicine" in their background.

Tumblety obviously was an Indian Herb Doctor...while D'Onston claimed medical experience in Italy...having two degrees ( ironically,Melvin Harris claimed one "degree" was from New York)...and was considered a thaumaturgist in a 1906 book written in France.

3. Both claimed or affected bogus military statuses

Tumblety was featured wearing a Prussian military uniform ( courtesy the hard work of Tim Riordan in locating the only known photograph of Tumblety ) in the June 2008 issue of Ripperologist...and D'Onston stated that he was a Coast Guard lieutenant in the 1871 census.

4. Both had their "mythmakers".

Tumblety's mythmaker was Sanford Conover ( that Tumblety was once married among other things ) while D'Onston's was Vittoria Cremers ( particularly the reputed memoirs of her relationship with Sudden Death, taken with several pinches of salt). Cremers not once mentions a single incidence of black magic in the time they were affiliated and Conover was a well known prevaricator.

5. Both were nearly 6 feet tall...tall for suspicious men,suspect men or men who were actually arrested suspects in the WM.

Tumblety's height is referred to in several articles, since 6 footers weren't so common in the LVP...and D'Onston was approximately 5'11".

6. Both had police officials who were rather blase' about their candidacies as the Ripper.

Tumblety didn't make Inspector Byrnes of the NYPD lose any sleep and D'Onston managed to raise a yawn out of Inspector Thomas Roots of Scotland Yard.

7. Both had newspapers or newspaper men promote their suspectworthiness even if the police didn't.

Tumblety had both the New York Times & World mention his "arrest"...while the one time Pall Mall Gazette editor W.T.Stead, by then the editor of Borderland (1896) stated that for a year he had been under the impression RDS was the "veritable Ripper".

8. Both were well over 40 years old.

Tumblety was approximately 57 and D'Onston a decade younger at 47.

9. Both were authors of works of bombastic proportion.

Tumblety's autobiography and D'Onston's Borderland article are loaded with over the top,outrageous commentaries.

10. Both had some mystery attached to a wife.

Tumblety has never been proven to have been married or even a homosexual inclined to even "fake" marriage with a female...and of course, D'Onston was theorized to have killed his wife by two pro-Stephenson authors...but that is untrue.

11. Both have been theorized to have had "articles" or artifacts which were linked to the WM .

Tumblety had his "uteri jars", which other than Conover, no one ever mentioned before....and of course D'Onston had his "bloody ties" legend, which ostensibly passed down from Cremers to Aleister Crowley.

12. Both have a seminal theme within their character or purported lifestyle which has yet to be proven...and probably never will.

Tumblety is accused of misogyny...yet other than a reported denigratory comment about women, never acted out that misogynistic attitude in a physical way in his recorded history. As a lifelong businessman, he met more women than anyone on this website has in their life ( except me,of course...ouch!) and had a poem written in his honor by a woman...hardly a thing to do for a misogynist. D'Onston,on the other hand, has been claimed by virtually every Ripper author with no malice of forethought,yet without sources to bolster the claim, as a black magician.

Chris G.
05-11-2009, 08:55 PM
Howard you wrote:

"3. Both claimed or affected bogus military statuses

"Tumblety was featured wearing a Prussian military uniform ( courtesy the hard work of Tim Riordan in locating the only known photograph of Tumblety ) in the June 2008 issue of Ripperologist...and D'Onston stated that he was a Coast Guard lieutenant in the 1871 census."

If I might offer them, here are two points of correction.

I believe Tumblety claimed to be a staff surgeon on the staff of Union General George B. McClennan, so that's certainly a more substantial claim than wearing a possibly bogus uniform.

And for D'Onston, along with the lieutenantcy he claimed in Her Majesty's Coast Guard, what about the claim of being part of a volunteer force to go to Italy to fight for Garibaldi.

Chris

How Brown
05-11-2009, 09:00 PM
C.G.

Thanks for the reply...

I said "claimed or affected..." referring to one claim apiece by these two yoyos..

Stephenson claimed to be a coast guard lieutenant. Regardless of the alleged service to Garibaldi, I was referring to the 1871 UK Census claim in his case.

In Tumblety's case, he was not a Prussian officer, yet he affected one of their uniforms....and you of course are right in that he wasn't a surgeon in anyone's army.

Nemo
05-12-2009, 04:03 AM
I was reading how "fallen women" were shunned in Rochester - and Rochester was a centre of a movement for womens rights which caused great controversy in the population - Tumblety almost certainly had an opinion on it

Tumblety's will bequeathed £1000 to the institute for fallen women - I can't see him doing this if he was the mysoginist that he is made out to be

Chris G.
05-12-2009, 11:10 AM
I was reading how "fallen women" were shunned in Rochester - and Rochester was a centre of a movement for womens rights which caused great controversy in the population - Tumblety almost certainly had an opinion on it

Tumblety's will bequeathed £1000 to the institute for fallen women - I can't see him doing this if he was the mysoginist that he is made out to be

To be clear about it, Tumblety's October 1901 Baltimore will left $1,000 (note: dollars not pounds) to the Home for Fallen Women on North Exeter Street and another $1,000 to Baltimore's Cardinal James Gibbons. This will was struck down by the Missouri Supreme Court in 1908 in favor of a later will Tumblety had signed in St. Louis shortly before his death in May 1903 that left $10,000 to Cardinal Gibbons and a further $10,000 to another Catholic prelate but nothing whatsoever to the Home for Fallen Women.

Chris

Nemo
05-12-2009, 11:22 AM
Thanks for that Chris - apologies once again for the error - $ not £ yes

I was writing from memory and forgot the petition was denied

Still - strange move for a mysoginist

Chris G.
05-12-2009, 11:30 AM
Thanks for that Chris - apologies once again for the error - $ not £ yes

I was writing from memory and forgot the petition was denied

Still - strange move for a mysoginist

Hi Nemo

I have not been able to prove it but I have often wondered if there is something irregular about the Baltimore will, that his friends in Baltimore, including the executor of the will, Major Kemp, might have rustled the will up on hearing of his death and of a possible fortune to be claimed. So you are correct the appearance of the money to go to the Home for Fallen Women could be suspicious... as if that legacy was put in there to make the will look legitimate.

Chris

Nemo
05-12-2009, 11:55 AM
Yes - good point Chris

It's a distinct possibility and would explain the seemingly erroneous bequeathment (is that a word?) to the Home for Fallen Women

Do we know anything more about Kemp's history? Has he ever done anything that may indicate he is a possible fraudster?

Chris G.
05-12-2009, 12:06 PM
Hi Nemo

Major Joseph Kemp was a banker with an office just down North Liberty Street from the rooming house at the corner of Liberty and Clay Streets where Tumblety resided per the 1900 Census, as discovered in the census by Peter Birchwood some years ago. So I take this to mean they did know each other. Being in the financial business, Kemp could also have had a clear idea of what the late doctor's finances were. Unfortunately I have been unable to trace Kemp further except for one mention in an article in the Baltimore Sun in which he was involved in a domestic disturbance. I have not been able to trace where he got his military title from. Possibly Tim Riordan is further along than I am in getting information on Kemp.

Chris

Nemo
05-12-2009, 12:08 PM
Hi Chris
Worth following up on definitely

I notice that Tumblety's fortune was amassed in part by shrewd investments rather than sales of pills etc

Chris G.
05-12-2009, 12:34 PM
Hi Howard et al.

Another parallel. Much like Roslyn D'Onston aka Robert Donston Stephenson writing The Patristic Gospels, Dr. Tumblety "got religion" in his last years. In fact, Dr. Tumblety's car (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/3515467080_7226d2887d_o.jpg) was recently discovered parked in a Liverpool side street. Have a look-see.

Chris

Nemo
05-12-2009, 01:01 PM
lol - reminds me of Cool Hand Luke...

Tim Riordan
05-12-2009, 02:28 PM
Hi all,

A few words about Joseph Kemp:

Joseph R. Kemp was born in Pennsylvania. He enlisted as a private in a PA Infantry regiment during the Civil War and became the captain heavy artillery. When he mustered out, he was given a complimentary brevet as a major. For most of his life, he was a brickmaker living in Ohio. Beginning in the 1890s, Kemp moved to Baltimore and was selling canned goods. By 1895, he was stock broker for a company called Douglas, Lacey & Co. which had offices all over the country. This was not a normal stock brokerage firm. They only dealt with their own mining stocks and guaranteed profits as high as 200%. It was actually a modified Ponzi scheme. One source explained it this way:

“The best bait in this particular operation was a "trust fund" established for the benefit of stockholders. The proceeds of the better-paying mines were to be applied to pay dividends for those which were less successful. In this way, the various directors of the many Douglas-Lacey Companies explained, it was impossible for the investors to lose. But they did lose. The reorganization, intended to save some of the better properties, wiped out more than seventy per cent of the small stockholders--widows, schoolteachers, stenographers, washwomen, scrubwomen . . .”

Kemp was associated with a number of shady lawyers in Baltimore who figure in Tumblety’s last years.

Best,

Tim

Chris G.
05-12-2009, 02:41 PM
Hi Tim

Thank you for this great information. I might be right then about the shadiness of Kemp's involvement in Tumblety's supposed Baltimore will. I do know that when I obtained a copy of the will from the Baltimore Orphans' Court it was not in Tumblety's writing but just a handwritten transcription and it had been filed with the court some time after Tumblety's death in St. Louis on May 28, 1903.

Chris

Tim Riordan
05-12-2009, 02:54 PM
Hi Chris,

In depositions taken later, the Baltimore will was written by Tumblety and Robert K. Simpson around 1901 as a joke. According to their testimony both Simpson and Kemp thought Tumblety had no money and was a pauper. They spent a lot of time putting up with him for no reason if this was true. Kemp kept the will in his safe and claims to have forgotten about it. When they “found out” that Tumblety actually had money, they brought out this will. The will was filed in the Orphan’s Court on August 18, 1903. As late as April 23, 1908, Kemp was still trying to seize the estate.


Best,

Tim

Chris G.
05-12-2009, 03:09 PM
In depositions taken later, the Baltimore will was written by Tumblety and Robert K. Simpson around 1901 as a joke.


You don't mount a law case on the basis of a joke though, so that doesn't quite wash. :nono:

Chris

Nemo
05-12-2009, 03:26 PM
Amazing stuff guys - Either way, the $1000 for the fallen women seems very contentious

Tim Riordan
05-12-2009, 03:36 PM
They knew it was no joke from the beginning. Although they later said they believed Tumblety had no money, Kemp tried to get Simpson to coax Tumblety into buying stock from him and a man named Duvall, a real estate broker, tried to get Simpson to coax him into buying real estate. Apparently Simpson had a "special relationship" with Tumblety.

Tim

Chris G.
05-12-2009, 03:50 PM
Amazing stuff guys - Either way, the $1000 for the fallen women seems very contentious

As we are discussing, it would appear that the $1,000 for the Home for Fallen Women on North Exeter Street was "window dressing" if the Baltimore will of 1901 was in fact bogus and "mocked up" by Kemp and pals after Tumblety's demise in order to lay hands on the late quack's fortune.

I have started a separate thread for the Baltimore Home for Fallen Women (http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=66041#post66041).

Chris

How Brown
05-13-2009, 05:23 PM
Two more parallels or similarities between Tumbelty & D'Onston:

13. Both were plagiarists.:nono:

Tumblety,as mentioned in the outstanding article written by Tim Riordan in Ripperologist June 2008 Issue 92, wasn't above lifting material from other written work....and D'Onston used a bit of Lord Lyttons's material in an article 60 years after the original appeared.

14. Both claimed to have been in cities or situations that are shown to be false.

Tumblety, again using Tim Riordan's work, claimed to have been present at the Seige of Paris...and D'Onston's imagination,not his person, was in Africa as well as other places.