The writing on Marys grave

[Currerbell]

I recently visited the graves of the victims, and I saw Mary's which was quite moving as it was covered with things people had left for her...anyway, I wondered where the words came from that are on her grave, part of a poem, or just something nice that someone came from...

None but the lonely hearts can know my sadness

[Mike Covell]

Thats a Frank Sinatra Song!

None but the lonely heart
Can know my sadness
Alone and parted
Far from joy and gladness
Heaven's boundless arch I see
Spread about above me
O what a distance dear to one
Who loves me
None but the lonely heart
Can know my sadness
Alone and parted
Far from joy and gladness
Alone and parted far
From joy and gladness
My senses fail
A burning fire
Devours me
None but the lonely heart
Can know my sadness


It's based on a poem by J.W. von Goethe and I believe Pyotr Tchaikovsky did a version too!

[Currerbell]

OMG, really???? LOL, thats cheapened the whole thing for me now...a Sinatra song? HA! I thought it was some Romantic Period poets lines, deep, meaningful, thoughtful, philosophical, sad, etc etc

Oh dear, dear, dear...:banghead:

[Sam Flynn]

Pyotr Tchaikovsky did a version too![/LEFT]...as did Schubert, Mike. It's sung here, in Goethe's original German, by the ethereal Gundula Janowitz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRQtevGeYP8

This is Tchaikovsky's Russian setting, sung by Dmitri Hvorostovsky:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlfhPViN0j0


Goethe's words clearly inspired many composers - Beethoven, Brahms, Schumann and Hugo Wolf all set the poem to music.

[Mike Covell]

Goethe's words clearly inspired many composers - Beethoven, Brahms, Schumann and Hugo Wolf all set the poem to music.

Just waiting for the Eminem and Lady Gaga duet of the poem!:tape:

[Chris G.]

OMG, really???? LOL, thats cheapened the whole thing for me now...a Sinatra song? HA! I thought it was some Romantic Period poets lines, deep, meaningful, thoughtful, philosophical, sad, etc etc

Oh dear, dear, dear...:banghead:

At least Goethe and Tchaikovsky have more cachet than Frank Sinatra, so I don't think the fact that Sinatra sang a song loosely based on the words of Goethe and a poem called "The Harpist's Song" by Russian poet Lev Mei (http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/Works/Songs/TH093/index.html) which was set by Tchaikovsky and said to be his most famous song cheapens the inscription at all.

Chris

[Mike Covell]

At least it wasn't,

Mary Kelly - I DID IT MY WAY - on the stone.

[Chris G.]

At least it wasn't,

Mary Kelly - I DID IT MY WAY - on the stone.

Or else Jack and Mary: "Strangers in the Night"! :rolleyes:

Chris

[How Brown]

G, really???? LOL, thats cheapened the whole thing for me now...a Sinatra song?-Bell

Listen lady..allow me to enlighten youse with dis bit of info on the Chairman of The Board, Francis Albert Sinatra....the pride of Hoboken, New Joisey. He is considered the bestest singer of all time by a variety of people ( many of whom are not in the Cosa Nostra or even made guys,if you get my drift). You could wind up in cement shoes should you say something outtaorder about dis man if you were to come to New Joisey for any reason like for aluminum siding or where to dump toxic materials in Bergen County or the Perth Amboy area. My people will keep an eye out for you in the future.

Sincerely,
Bruno Tatagglia,capo di tutti de capi and Longshoreman
Columbo Family,West Side
New York,New York

[Currerbell]

Tatagglia

Isnt that a Pasta????:tape:

[Stephen Leece]

I find the entire cult and mythology surrounding Mary Kelly tacky, without even thinking about the headstone inscription.

[Currerbell]

Hey up Stephen, what else do you find tacky? Im interested in all points of view on the case....

[Stephen Leece]

Well there was a bloke called John Morrison- don't know where he is or what he's doing now that put a headstone up for Kelly in 1986- the inscription described her as "The Prima Donna of Spitalfields" and a line from a prayer "Do not stop to stand and stare unless to utter a fervent prayer"- i think that's how it went anyway.
The point I'm making is this, Kelly gets all the sympathy for no other reason than she was young and allegedly attractive, as though the deaths of the others somehow didn't count.
Look at the way Kelly has been portrayed by the woman off Three Up Two Down, or her off Twin Peaks. She's always portrayed as some sort of vulnerable, borderline-innocent girly girly. It's a load of cobblers- it feels as if she is some sort of pin-up girl for researchers.
She is not more innocent, or more deserving of sympathy than any of the other victims.
Kelly has become a foil for commentators own prejudices, desires etc.
I'm rambling here because you have asked me to describe something that's intangible. I'll wait for someone else to comment- may help me gather my thoughts better.

[Currerbell]

I see what you mean, it could be cause so little is known of her, well thats what I keep reading anyway, people try and condition her to fit their own thoughts on who 'they' think she was, and yes cause she was said to be pretty and young and a good singer etc etc, then it wasnt ok for her to be murdered...

Though I do feel a bit more for her than the others because of how she died ie totally ripped apart and destroyed, but I still dont believe in the murder of anyone, good or bad, ugly or beautiful, male or female...

[Stephen Leece]

It's not just that Sarah, there's women like Mary Kelly in every major city of the world. If all these Kelly fan-boys that you come across in Ripperology really cared about her, you wouldn't come across people like Mary Kelly today in the East End. But some people would rather project their fantasies and aspirations onto a 120 year old corpse than do any real work amongst the living.
It's also short-sighted to regard her as being more tragic than the others- given another ten years, any looks she allegedly had would have disappeared, and she'd be a gin-soaked old trollope like the others. When Kelly was murdered, the world did not lose the cure for cancer- Spitalfields lost a drunken prostitute. That's all she was.

[Currerbell]

I kind of agree to a point, but still dont think whether it was a top class courtesan from the West End, it wasnt right that she was murdered in the way she was...

Infact I got thinking the other day, when I was at the graves and seeing the things people had laid for these women, they are paying a respect to a person they never knew or will know, these women could have been awful, horrible people with nasty characters who we would cross the street to avoid yet here we are (and Im one of them as I put flowers down on the graves) handing out our respects for them...

[Stephen Leece]

That kind of 'paying respects' thing drives me up-the-wall. Slightly off-topic here, but it may illustrate my point- I used to frequent a pub years ago, where one of the regulars was allegedly a known prostitute- you'd hear jokes and gossip about what she allegedly got upto in private.
If, god forbid, something happened to that woman, all the guys that cracked jokes about her for years and years I guarantee would suddenly start talking about how great she was, and how much they missed her. Creating their own mythology effectively.
The Mary Kelly mythology is just the exhaust fumes of a society that feels guilty.

[Currerbell]

I guess some people would do that yes, but if she was found in her bedsit in the same way Kelly was, I doubt there would be many jokes and laughter...quite the opposite...

[Stephen Leece]

That's what I'm saying- in life Kelly meant nothing to most people, in death she became everything. Guilt kicks-in, and then the myth-making starts.

[Currerbell]

theres myth making in every death because the truth will never be known, it will never come from the horses mouth so to speak

[Archaic]

Thats a Frank Sinatra Song!


Well done, Mike! My first thought was that it was a Roy Orbison song! -Archaic

[Big Jon]

I've never gotten the people who claim to consider themselves friends with the victims or feel some kind of bond with them.

I'm sure we've all seen people about certain places claim to have these kind of feelings. Just don't understand it.

[Currerbell]

I think its one thing a psychologist could maybe explain...

I mean look at war memorials, the Holocaust victims, 9/11 NY victims, we dont know the people who died, but many thousands pay a kind of respect to them each year...

[Big Jon]

Respect and claims of friendship are two different things.

I have respect for those who died during wars. I don't consider them to be like a friend though.

[Currerbell]

well maybe thats the same for people who leave something at a grave...its just respect...people who say they are friends with the victims, well, that isnt right

[The Red Dahlia]

Going by the book "a complete history of JTR by Phillip Sugden.
As u know around a bout 3.30-4.30am a Mrs Elizabeth Prater from 26 Dorset st above mary's room heard a cry of "oh murder" Also Sarah Lewis who was that night staying at no2 Millers court heard a young womans screams of "murder" at about roughly the same time. Neither of them investigated.
But a Mrs Caroline Maxwell just opposite no 13 insisted that she saw & spoke to MK at the corner of Millers court as late as 8.30 that morning. She remembered the converation they had & even the clothes she was wearing including the velvet jacket and shawl. 30 mins later at 9am she saw Mary again albeit at a distance talking to a man outside the Britannia pub.
So how can this be so? and who is to be believed? Obviously if the murder took place between say 3-5am then Mary would have long dead by then & not standing around chatting!!
Can't also understand why the Mrs Ringer who apparently MK had been to see that am (and related story to Mrs Maxwell) for a" medicinal" half a pint of beer but had unfortunatly thrown it up in street could not have been questioned about this & asked to verify the time???? most odd.
Also other witnesses who should have seen her had she been at The Britannia pub?
The vomit in the st could have also been analysed to c if it did indeed come from the victim. That's if she really was a victim!! & not somebody elses entrails strewn about the room!
Red Dahlia x

[Magpie]

Listen lady..allow me to enlighten youse with dis bit of info on the Chairman of The Board, Francis Albert Sinatra....the pride of Hoboken, New Joisey. He is considered the bestest singer of all time by a variety of people ( many of whom are not in the Cosa Nostra or even made guys,if you get my drift). You could wind up in cement shoes should you say something outtaorder about dis man if you were to come to New Joisey for any reason like for aluminum siding or where to dump toxic materials in Bergen County or the Perth Amboy area. My people will keep an eye out for you in the future.

Sincerely,
Bruno Tatagglia,capo di tutti de capi and Longshoreman
Columbo Family,West Side
New York,New York

Sinatra--don't get me started on Sinatra. All the bastard had to do was linger for another 6 days!! 6 :censored: days! Was that too much to ask?

[The Red Dahlia]

Apologies Currerbell, i put my post under your thread by accident :[
should have started a new post.
Really was interested in the timeframe of the witness statements?
Yes i feel that if people want to place flowers on mary's grave then they have every right to.
They are not saying that they feel they knew her personally just that they are sad about the terrible things that were done to this young women however long ago that might be its as poignant now as it was then.
The Red Dahlia x