Did he do a 'Bundy'?

[Currerbell]

Hey all

Anyone considered if our Jack played a Bundy style approach to the women? Im thinking if he was a good looking charmer, friendly, 'normal' looking person and approached the victims asking for help/directions etc, could they have fallen in this trap and he attacked them from behind as they walked off either after finishing the conversation or as they may have been pointing out a street/area for example?

[Ultra Violet]

It wouldn't have been necessary for JtR. Bundy didn't prey on prostitutes, so he had to come up with some kind of a trick to get his victims into his car. JtR's victims were prostitutes and had to go with a customer if they wanted to earn their doss money.
But maybe he used some charm to inspire enough confidence in them, that, even at the height of the ripper fear, they went with him into deserted areas.

[Sam Flynn]

I tend to agree, UV - at least inasmuch as he might have adapted his approach according to the situation. An offer of shelter and/or drink may have appealed to some of the victims as much as an offer of a "trick" - one thinks of Nichols and Eddowes in this specific context. I sometimes entertain the fanciful idea that he might have used the false premise of mugging in Hanbury Street ("Now the rings... come on, come on! I haven't got all day!").

[Currerbell]

The charm is what I mean...to get them to go somewhere quiet, which yes I know they would do that for their business anyway, but wouldnt you feel better if that person was, well, a bit more attractive/normal...some people you see in public and talk to you feel comfortable, Im talking judge by looks etc....others you cross the streets to avoid although you dont know them

[Nemo]

Hi Currebell (I like the avatar btw)

I still don't think it's clear how the victims were approached

Even the men seen with the victims may not have been the Ripper in my opinion

I think there is still a possibility of a lurker or possibly a peeping tom blitzing the victims after a client has just left them

With Nichols, the killer could have been lurking in the alley (where I believe a wax exhibition had representations of murder was present)

With Chapman he could have observed her from the rear of No.29 and could even have been in a toilet

He may have been in the darkness of the yard with Stride

The empty houses may have provided cover in Mitre Square

With Kelly, you could almost certainly hear what she was up to from the other side of the partition especially but, more likely, a good view of her bed could be had from the court and this was probably known to anyone who used the water pump or urinals in the court

Even with Tabram I think there was a urinal on the landing above where she was found

I therefore think it quite possible that there was no interaction at all between the killer and victims and he could well have been a totally opportunistic killer who just attacked lone drunken females suddenly from the rear after observing them enter a place with a client

Attacking them so close to the time of their interaction with a client may have aided his escape from detection as the client was unlikely to own up to being there at the relevant time

I think this would implicate a local man who hung around the streets often all night

[Currerbell]

Hi Nemo

(Thanks, I like a bit of ol' Moll, can relate to her in some ways. Not illegal ways tho!)

Anyway, thanks for your tuppence worth, all opinions are indeed vital and interesting to read, ones mind can change all the time!

Opportunistic is a popular theory...I just thought Jack may feel super confident knowing his ploy would work...

Ive come up with several conclusions since working on this little project actually, one seems to understand JTR from studying other killers since...

[How Brown]

Hi Currebell (I like the avatar btw)

I still don't think it's clear how the victims were approached

Even the men seen with the victims may not have been the Ripper in my opinion

I think there is still a possibility of a lurker or possibly a peeping tom blitzing the victims after a client has just left them

With Nichols, the killer could have been lurking in the alley (where I believe a wax exhibition had representations of murder was present)

With Chapman he could have observed her from the rear of No.29 and could even have been in a toilet

He may have been in the darkness of the yard with Stride

The empty houses may have provided cover in Mitre Square

With Kelly, you could almost certainly hear what she was up to from the other side of the partition especially but, more likely, a good view of her bed could be had from the court and this was probably known to anyone who used the water pump or urinals in the court

Even with Tabram I think there was a urinal on the landing above where she was found

I therefore think it quite possible that there was no interaction at all between the killer and victims and he could well have been a totally opportunistic killer who just attacked lone drunken females suddenly from the rear after observing them enter a place with a client

Attacking them so close to the time of their interaction with a client may have aided his escape from detection as the client was unlikely to own up to being there at the relevant time

I think this would implicate a local man who hung around the streets often all night

Dear Nemo;

Not only an excellent series of potential scenarios...but I'm of the opinion that some sort of blitz manuever may have occurred too...especially in the case of Nichols, possibly Eddowes and Chapman...and a brazen blitz like attack on Stride, with or without the Schwartz testimony being factual.

[Currerbell]

By blitz do you mean attack?

[Dustin Gould]

A cursory glance into the lives these poor women had to lead, and it's apparent charm and good looks, weren't a requirement for male companionship. If they wanted food in their bellies or a roof over their heads, they'd go with whomever presented them with the money for such.

[Currerbell]

Definitely I agree with you there totally, but wouldnt it have made your night instead of going with an ugly troll of a man?

[Caroline Morris]

Hi All,

If Jack preyed on women who had just finished servicing their last client, would we not expect any evidence of this recent 'connection' to be found at any of the crime scenes?

Having said that, maybe this was not unusual, considering that Polly claimed to have earned and spent her doss money three times over in the hours leading up to her death, yet there was nothing to show for it.

Love,

Caz
X

[Currerbell]

Caz luv, Im eating my breakfast....( ;-) ):kiss:

[Caroline Morris]

Oats or yogurt?

Or eggy sausage?

:tape:

[Currerbell]

I shall let you know in a second when Ive brought it all up....I put too much salt on it tho....:banghead:

[Currerbell]

On a serious note, you do have a point there Caz....tho there are ways of pleasing customers without having connection...(trying to put it politely as I can)

[How Brown]

By blitz do you mean attack?- Bell

What I mean, Bell...or what I am suggesting as a possible explanation of how the murders occurred...is that the Nichols' murderer didn't proposition her as some might feel...walking along casually to the spot in front of the gate on Bucks Row....but ran into her and without a word between them, assaulted,killed, and began mutilating her.

I've gone over this before....and its just a theory without proof,of course....but considering the fact that the women were either engaged in prostitution at some point in time or found murdered in areas where prostitutes were known to 'work'....its easy to assume that the victim and Ripper had had some dialogue leading up to the murders....but I am not sure.

[Currerbell]

I see your theory and as we know so little I think they are all worthy of being published on here...as we know, anything is possible...

Shock/blitz tactics may certainly have been Jacks flavour of the month so to speak, what with little noise and struggle a stealth attack seems reasonable...

My Bundy theory was more along the lines of a handsome chappy who actually didnt want to engage in their services but merely asked a question and hoped they would answer and walk off with him somewhere...maybe offering a drink/money or something to eat as a thank you...

[Caroline Morris]

....tho there are ways of pleasing customers without having connection...(trying to put it politely as I can)

Indeed so, Currer. But the you-know-what still has to end up somewhere, doesn't it?

The idea that it all ended up each and every time either on the satisfied customer's person, splashed over the cobbles, or in with the lady's stomach contents, is something I'm not sure I can swallow...

Love,

Caz
X

[Currerbell]

Well there's the floor itself, a hanky/rag/newspaper sheet, it could be spat out....etc etc, its quite hard to think of anymore, maybe the gents of the forum can lend us ladies a hand?:playball:


(Ahh just realised you already mentioned the floor)

[Currerbell]

I guesss some poor chaps couldnt even get that far...:banghead::puke::violin::rant::doh::pout:




:smoker: and they didnt have one of these after the event...

so they needed :help:

[Caroline Morris]

Hi Currer,

I s'pose all I was getting at is that there is no actual evidence that any of the victims had been milking another customer with the ripper waiting in the wings for a window.

I'd better shut up now - you'll be having your breakies again. :tape:

Love,

Caz
X

[Dustin Gould]

Well there's the floor itself, a hanky/rag/newspaper sheet, it could be spat out....etc etc, its quite hard to think of anymore, maybe the gents of the forum can lend us ladies a hand?:playball:


(Ahh just realised you already mentioned the floor)


Well, if I lent myself that hand, I'd know EXACTLY where "it" would end up! :)

In all seriousness.....Jack may have ended up with a splattering that stretched from the fly of his trousers, onto the tails of his shirt. Which could easily be concealed by tucking his shirt tails into his pants, and buttoning up his coat to conceal his pants.

Not that I'd know from experience, mind you. I'm just speculating! :nono:

[Debbie D]

Well, if I lent myself that hand, I'd know EXACTLY where "it" would end up! :)

In all seriousness.....Jack may have ended up with a splattering that stretched from the fly of his trousers, onto the tails of his shirt. Which could easily be concealed by tucking his shirt tails into his pants, and buttoning up his coat to conceal his pants.

Not that I'd know from experience, mind you. I'm just speculating! :nono:


:p:eyebrows:
You folks are killing me.

[Caroline Morris]

Hi Dustin,

Yes but we weren't actually talking about Jack's - ahem - shortcomings. The theory suggested by Nemo was this:


I think there is still a possibility of a lurker or possibly a peeping tom blitzing the victims after a client has just left them...

...I therefore think it quite possible that there was no interaction at all between the killer and victims and he could well have been a totally opportunistic killer who just attacked lone drunken females suddenly from the rear after observing them enter a place with a client

Attacking them so close to the time of their interaction with a client may have aided his escape from detection as the client was unlikely to own up to being there at the relevant time


Assuming this would have involved a different unfortunate servicing a different client on each occasion, your task is to account for no signs of the white stuff at any of the grime scenes.

Love,

Caz
X

PS I saved some of the proper white stuff over the last job, to write with instead of chalk, but it went thick like glue and I can't use it...

[Currerbell]

Caz, its ok, I have a pretty strong stomach...

We may laugh and mock (myself included) at the double entendre's as we are adults at the end of the day and know 'how it works' but it is something that is strange...(the absence of sperm).

What was the contraception like in those days? Im not too hot on pre 1960's stuff, obv there was no pill, was the condom more sophisticated than a pigs bladder at all? (I know there were no machines in the Ten Bells Gents), but was it just a case of withdrawal before the big event if you didnt want to get pregnant?

Though I have read that they prob only gave oral/anal sex and if a man was dumb enough, she would place his penis between the womans thighs which acted as a 'vagina' and so fooled him...if the woman carried rags with her, or even just the one for the purpose of wiping it up afterwards...if it was real intercourse, and the man did his job properly, then I dont get how the docs didnt pick it up...Im sure they knew what it was and what it looked like...

Sorry Ive gone on a bit in this post and havent really answered a question!

[Currerbell]

Caz - love your PS!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Ultra Violet]

Nemo, I have a question concerning the blitz attack scenario.
Do you think that it wasn't Eddowes, who Lawende saw at corner of Church Passage or that Lawende, Levy and Harris were maybe mistaken about the time?

If that actually was Eddowes with a customer at the given time, that would decrease the already short time span between her being last seen alive and PC Watkins discovering her body even further. JtR would have had only a few minutes to attack and kill her, mutilate her, take a piece of her apron and run or hide.

[Sam Flynn]

What was the contraception like in those days? ... was the condom more sophisticated than a pigs bladder at all?
A bit of Googling reveals that mass-produced condoms made of vulcanised rubber had been available since the 1860s, in the States at least. They were made by Goodyear (of rubber tyre fame) and the appropriately named Mr Hancock, who marketed them as "Dr Power's French Preventatives". Early condoms weren't particularly effective, as they were made form a mould - definitely a case of "one size doesn't fit all", I'd have thought.

"Condoms should be worn on every conceivable occasion" - Spike Milligan

[Currerbell]

Hi Sam

I actually had a look at victorians and contraception on the net earlier...didnt really find much that I didnt know already...I assume condoms werent used amongst pros due to cost etc

[Sam Flynn]

I assume condoms werent used amongst pros due to cost etcAlmost certainly, among the low-life "unfortunates" in which we're primarily interested.


"In days of old, when knights were bold, and condoms weren't invented,
They'd wrap a sock around their c0ck, and go to bed contented"

- Shakespeare

[Currerbell]

OMG what play is that from????

Or is it a Sonnet???:tape:

[Sam Flynn]

OMG what play is that from????
Measure by Measure

[Currerbell]

Ahh, will check it out, I have the complete works of his plays....Henry V, Macbeth and Othello are my faves, brilliant stuff.

[Sam Flynn]

I was only kidding, Bell - the rude poem wasn't really by Shakespeare.





It was by Gerard Manley Hopkins :)

[Currerbell]

You bugger! I dont often get caught out either....I should have guessed when you put Measure by Measure instead of Measure for Measure...

[Caroline Morris]

Oh Sam, you are a tease. :lol:

Why do Irish sailors have English letters round their hats?
Cos they'd look daft with French letters around 'em.

I tried it and got called all manner of twats
So now I withdraw and confound 'em.

W B Yeats

[Currerbell]

Isnt french letter such a great name for one? Does anyone know how that came to be?

[Nemo]

Hi Caz

Nichols Eddowes and Stride may all have been attacked without any other client being in the vicinity

I was going to mention the condoms but as you say, some of these women had serviced a number of clients with no outward sign of connection really

Only Chapman and Kelly would be expected to have just serviced a client before the attack

UV- I think there is a possibility that it was not Eddowes at the entrance to Church passage but it is not necessary for any reason of timing

I think she could well have left the man at the passage entrance and entered Mitre Square alone upon which she was attacked

[Caroline Morris]

Isnt french letter such a great name for one? Does anyone know how that came to be?

A bit of Googling reveals that mass-produced condoms made of vulcanised rubber had been available since the 1860s, in the States at least. They were made by Goodyear (of rubber tyre fame) and the appropriately named Mr Hancock, who marketed them as "Dr Power's French Preventatives"...

Hi Currer,

I thought perhaps a euphemism using the same reasoning as Sam's Mr Hancock - whatever that was. A bit of "ooh la la" perhaps? Were the French considered a bit fast and loose, having sex for its own sake, and not just to reproduce? My great-great-grandmother was French and she was a corsetière, so I wouldn't be at all surprised. :)

Mind you, I suppose a plain old French letter would be preferable to an invitation from France: a French letter with "Come" in it. :tape:

(An oldie but goldie)

Love,

Caz
X

[Ultra Violet]

I think she could well have left the man at the passage entrance and entered Mitre Square alone upon which she was attacked

Sure! :doh: I didn't think of that option. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Currerbell]

Good explanation Caz!

[Currerbell]

Is it at all possible they could have used condoms???? Seriously?

[Caroline Morris]

Hi Caz

Nichols Eddowes and Stride may all have been attacked without any other client being in the vicinity

I was going to mention the condoms but as you say, some of these women had serviced a number of clients with no outward sign of connection really

Only Chapman and Kelly would be expected to have just serviced a client before the attack

UV- I think there is a possibility that it was not Eddowes at the entrance to Church passage but it is not necessary for any reason of timing

I think she could well have left the man at the passage entrance and entered Mitre Square alone upon which she was attacked

Fair points all, Nemo.

And of course, we have a very small sample of crime scenes to consider - something that often gets forgotten when we speculate about Jack's behaviour and what would have been consistent if everything went his way each time.

Love,

Caz
X

[Currerbell]

Hi Caz

It did seem to go his way all the time tho didnt it?

[Caroline Morris]

If you say so, Currer.

But I'd be reluctant to presume that this killer succeeded in doing every little thing he wanted to do, every time he tried to do it, and for as long as he wanted to go on doing it.

Hell, I don't even know that he didn't end up getting hanged for some other crime, with nobody any the wiser about him being the Whitechapel Murderer.

We only know when things didn't go his victims' way. Jack may well have been an incurably dissatisfied customer.

Love,

Caz
X

[Currerbell]

Well, what I meant was, he seemed to have had his way with his victims ie cut them up, and then got away with it, yeah I know he may have been caught for something else etc etc after...but IF he killed the C5 and a few others before or after surely he thought things couldnt get any peachier...

[Caroline Morris]

'Surely'?

Again, if you say so, Currer.

If he had to 'cut and run' from Berner to Mitre because Liz wouldn't play ball, or the pitch had too many spectators, I think he would beg to differ on at least that score.

Love,

Caz
X

[Currerbell]

I know what you mean, but he still had his way tho didnt he? He wasnt caught for murdering Stride, he had his next victim, and he must have laughed, as she came his way, at his luck...