Article Discussion

[How Brown]

Beginning today...lets discuss an article which has appeared in one of the Ripper magazines....and not necessarily from the most recent issues. Issues from years gone by that contain articles of interest which were under-discussed.

If this sounds good, lets hear you say so.

Thanks !

Tomorrow morning, I'll have an article unless one of you has other ideas.

[Currerbell]

Well I have had the chance lately to read the work Rob and Monty did on the PC's involved in the case...I think more should be said about that and their work appreciated through this discussion...

[How Brown]

Bell:

Way to go woman.:high5:

Good choice...and we have both gents on the boards to fill us in in case there are questions at some point.

Do you feel...as some have suggested...that Harvey didn't follow his regular procedure or regular beat on the night in question?

[Currerbell]

Oh have I won a prize????!!!



Good question, would it be possible for me to answer that tomorrow after I have re-read the essay...as its nearly midnight here and my brain doesnt function as well....:banghead:

[Currerbell]

Thats if the gents in question dont mind being discussed...:playball:

[How Brown]

No problem Bell...but don't forget to come back to the thread tomorrow.

[Rob Clack]

I'm easy :)

[Currerbell]

How - I wont!x

[How Brown]

Okay Rob !

Let me ask you one question for the evening and then tomorrow, maybe we can discuss other aspects of your article.

How long did it take to compile the material on PC Harvey ? I know that some of the material which was in the article has been discussed before ( my question to Bell,for instance)...but the photos and some of the text are original.

Thanks....... and thanks for writing the piece.:high5:

[Rob Clack]

Hi How,

Neil did all the leg work and article writing. I just supplied him with copies of Harvey's application form to the City Police, and some census details. There's not a lot in the City Police files about him. Some of the other officers had a service and disciplinary record sheet. Unfortunately Harvey's was missing. And he's the one we all want to know about when it come to discipline.

Rob

[How Brown]

Dear Rob:

Before I forget to ask you...since you and Neil did this article on a City policeman...I was wondering whether you were aware that there are 9 pages of material on Det. Daniel Halse at the City Police Archives?

I've mentioned this before a few times and I have the response from the lady at the City Police archives on my AOL mail...which states there is material on this most interesting officer which can be copied by anyone interested..

At the time, the cost was prohibitive to me ( $75.00 around Christmas...for xerox copies.), but I would pitch in if someone in London could take the time and copy the material there. There may be some interesting and previously unseen material on Halse....you never know.

[Currerbell]

Can I just clarify tho re Harvey...incase I have misread...all we have to go on, by the way of him not doing his beat properly, is that some policemen played the game and went off for a cuppa sometimes AND he was dismissed for unknown reasons a year later????

Is that it?

If so, Im not sure thats sufficient evidence really...


He has been a policeman for 12 years, so 'one suspects' he knows how to play the 'game', suspecting and knowing are different things, also if he HAS been a copper for 12 years wouldnt he know full well the consequences of being caught...and so NOT do something like that?

If Harvey wasnt exactly sure of the time, then he may have been in the passage earlier than the stated time by the P.O. clock...01:38/01:39

The article states 'there is no reason why he should not have done so' when it comes to Harvey walking down the passage, well this more or less says the author agrees to him completing his beat.

'Wouldnt be surprising' and 'judging service records of others (officers)' ....

The above are mere statements not fact, should we judge one man by anothers mistakes or wrong doings?

[Rob Clack]

I'll send you what I've got on Halse, Howard. Can you clarify to me that it was the City Police Archives? as the stuff I got came from The London Metropolitan Archives. As far as I know the City Police don't keep copies of the personnel files any more. $75!!!!! I think they are taking the 'P'

Dear Rob:

Before I forget to ask you...since you and Neil did this article on a City policeman...I was wondering whether you were aware that there are 9 pages of material on Det. Daniel Halse at the City Police Archives?

I've mentioned this before a few times and I have the response from the lady at the City Police archives on my AOL mail...which states there is material on this most interesting officer which can be copied by anyone interested..

At the time, the cost was prohibitive to me ( $75.00 around Christmas...for xerox copies.), but I would pitch in if someone in London could take the time and copy the material there. There may be some interesting and previously unseen material on Halse....you never know.

[Rob Clack]

I think Neil can answer the the question better than me. There's no reason to suggest Harvey didn't do his beat properly that night it's just a suggestion. Looking at other police officers at the time I don't think they were very conscientious in doing their jobs properly.

Can I just clarify tho re Harvey...incase I have misread...all we have to go on, by the way of him not doing his beat properly, is that some policemen played the game and went off for a cuppa sometimes AND he was dismissed for unknown reasons a year later????

Is that it?

If so, Im not sure thats sufficient evidence really...


He has been a policeman for 12 years, so 'one suspects' he knows how to play the 'game', suspecting and knowing are different things, also if he HAS been a copper for 12 years wouldnt he know full well the consequences of being caught...and so NOT do something like that?

If Harvey wasnt exactly sure of the time, then he may have been in the passage earlier than the stated time by the P.O. clock...01:38/01:39

The article states 'there is no reason why he should not have done so' when it comes to Harvey walking down the passage, well this more or less says the author agrees to him completing his beat.

'Wouldnt be surprising' and 'judging service records of others (officers)' ....

The above are mere statements not fact, should we judge one man by anothers mistakes or wrong doings?

[Currerbell]

Then more should be said on their 'bad ways' of operating within their work...maybe another article on those who did and what they actually did.

[Rob Clack]

Here's an unused photo from the article:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/RobClack1969/forumsHoundsditch31December1912.jpg

The corner of Houndsditch and Gravel Lane from 1912. Harvey's beat would have covered this corner and also the Ripper may have passed down Gravel Lane from Mitre Square to Goulston Street.

Rob

[Rob Clack]

Just wait till you read about Watkins. It's surprising what people would do and not get the sack.

Rob

[Currerbell]

Are any of those buildings on Gravel Lane still there?

[Rob Clack]

Unfortunately not. There is absolutely bugger all from the 1880s in Houndsditch and Gravel Lane area.

I should have said (for those who haven't read the article) the shop on the corner was run by John David Simmons in the 1912 photo, and he was also there back in 1888.

[Currerbell]

Ah well....prob replaced by mosques and Lloyds Banks now...:nono:

[ferret]

Here's an unused photo from the article:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/RobClack1969/forumsHoundsditch31December1912.jpg

The corner of Houndsditch and Gravel Lane from 1912. Harvey's beat would have covered this corner and also the Ripper may have passed down Gravel Lane from Mitre Square to Goulston Street.

Rob

Read above!!!! xxx

[Rob Clack]

There's a big open space covering the area now I think.
The photo I uploaded from photobucket, so it should be okay. :)

Thanks Suzi X

[Currerbell]

what do others think about Harvey tho?

[Rob Clack]

Well, he seems to have had a good record, got good references to get him into the City Police. I'd hat to call him a bad policeman without any info to go on but I think to be dismissed it would have to be something very bad. He was one of fourteen to be dismissed in 1889.

[Currerbell]

Well, the article itself is excellent for the biographical information...I just wondered why it kind of steered towards making Harvey look like he didnt do his job properly on the 30th Sept 1888.

[Jon Simons]

Wasn`t there a tightening up on the not drinking on duty rule around that time ?

[Currerbell]

Oh I havent heard that one before....do you have any more info on that Jon?

[Rob Clack]

I'll have to re read the article but I don't think we specifically singling out the 30 September, I think we were talking about in general. Also I think there is a fairly good chance Harvey didn't go all the way to the end of Church Passage as I believe he could have seen as far as Ripper's corner. That's just my opinion.

[Currerbell]

yes but why wouldnt he go down the whole length of the passage?

[Rob Clack]

There's no great reason for him to. There's no doors for him to check at that end. If he could see the end of the passage from the half way point then that would be enough for him not to bother going all the way.

[Currerbell]

then why would it be included on this beat then?

[Rob Clack]

Bureaucracy probably.

[Currerbell]

Dodgy ground that...:nono:

[Rob Clack]

It certainly is, Harvey said the whole of the passage was on his beat, but looking at it, there was no reason to patrol all of it. Looking at it I think there was a door about 6 to 10 feet away from the Mitre Square end of the passage. So he would have at least checked that. The thing is, if you could see the end of the passage and everything looked okay, would you bother going all the way?
A few officers me and Neil have looked at have been fined for drinking on duty (We can't say if this ever happened to Harvey) so we know a few officers skipped part of there beat to go and have a drink. We wont tell you what Watkins's got caught doing but you'll find out soon enough.

[Jon Simons]

do you have any more info on that Jon?

Read it somewhere. I`ll have to dig around and see if I can find it.

[Currerbell]

No rush, make sure you put your glasses on, you may find it quicker...:tape::kiss:

[Jon Simons]

Didn`t Harvey live at 4 Heneage Lane, running off Duke St, which was on his beat.

Regarding, Church Passage, wasn`t there a small alley between the synagogue and K & T`s where people lived.

[Mike Covell]

A close fiend of mine worked in a large retail store in Hull, and was the youngest of the team so got stuck with night shifts. The role was quite easy, to walk around the building, pressing your special keycard against the doorways of floors and passages within the building. It didn't matter what order they got done in, as long as they were registered every hour.

So my friend devised a method that involved going up one side of the building, moving across the top floor and down the other side of the building! He never checked any of the floors, just stuck his hand through the door and swiped his card against the sensor.

He did this for two reasons,
The first was to save time, so he could get back to play on the pc or watch a DVD.
The second was becuase he simply thought everything looked ok.

Perhaps Harvey looked along the passage, and thinking everything was OK, carried on along the rest of his beat. I guess we will sadly never know!

[Currerbell]

Blase then or however you spell it...what you think about Harvey Mike?

[Mike Covell]

Blase then or however you spell it...what you think about Harvey Mike?

Brian Harvey or PC Harvey?

I think that if I was a police officer, walking the beat during those few months, I would be tempted to skip the odd passage, after all, up until that point, no murders had been committed in the City!

[Currerbell]

Oh god, not E17!!!

[Monty]

The simple fact is that Harvey testified he went down Church Passage therefore unless we find contradicting evidence we must take his word. Stewart Evans, an experience beat PC, shared his experience with me. He stated that, in order to make up time that was lost through people stopping and asking questions for example, PCs missed certain parts of their beat and do them on their later rounds.

The beat PCs in Harveys time were required to stop an liase with the Nightwatchman on his beat. Morris clearly states that he and Watkins did do this on regular occaissions, with Saturday night/Sunday morning being the exception. It also shows the two worked together in the arrest of Birke some weeks prior to Eddowes death.

Re Church Passage, there were offices behind the synagogue and these were connected via a small passage with a gate. This would have been the final secure item Harvey checked.

[Monty]

What also needs to be considered is the fact gaslamps have to be checked by PCs, to see if the were working.

Im not sure if the lamp at Church passage and Mitre Square junction was Harveys or Watkins domain.

[Currerbell]

Are you expecting to find contradictive evidence though on Harvey NOT completing his beat?

[Monty]

Expecting? no.

However if evidence did arise I wouldnt be surprised.

[Currerbell]

Wouldnt be surprised? Do you mean cause of the actions of others?

[Monty]

His record shows he isnt a squeaky clean copper.

[Currerbell]

ahh yeah, is this information going to be released in the future?

[Monty]

Rob is being too modest. His contribution is massive and always beneficial.

We often text, mail each other with views, research ideas. How we work is that we take the info from the application form. Hutt for example states he was in the army. We then go down that road and low, we have further research. Major Hopton, Hutts senior officer, we found a photo of him(though shown in the artocle, he wasnt identified..he is the guy with the huge beard). He gave reference on Hutt.

Due to obvious time restrictions, we are limited to how far we can go. Id like to think we have opened paths for others to walk down. Mike Covell may wish to take up some research regarding our next subject, as there is a connection he may be interested in.

[Currerbell]

Interesting stuff, I wish you both good luck in the future with it.

[Monty]

ahh yeah, is this information going to be released in the future?

Sorry, I have my wires crossed. I was confused with Hutt. When you are looking at around 8 or 9 PCs they tend to blend in with each other.

Hutts record is incomplete.

One thing that has come out of this series which has passed by uncommented, which has surprised me, is we now have a first name for PC Holland. Not the most enthrawling news but news nevertheless.

[Currerbell]

What was it?

Johannes?

[Rob Clack]

I'm the oily rag.

It was Frederick Holland.

[Monty]

Frederick.

It was mentioned in the Harvey piece, subtley.

[Currerbell]

I wont bother with any more jokes with you 2 tonight Messrs Serious and Serious...


:kiss:

[Monty]

My post crossed with Robs.

[Currerbell]

No, no, tell the truth, Im losing my touch.... ;-)

[How Brown]

Bell:

Big thanks for getting this conversation going. I was startled to see all the replies by Neil and Rob. This is a nice thread dear:kiss:

[Currerbell]

Yes, its been nice to squeeze something out of them...

[Rob Clack]

Yes, and you've no idea how much you've made my eyes water. :cry:

Yes, its been nice to squeeze something out of them...

[Currerbell]

I shall be gentler next time....Monty hasnt complained....yet...


Seriously though, the work produced so far on the PC's has been really good.

Back to the topic eh?!

[Monty]

This is the guy I got to work with.

[Currerbell]

Chalk and cheese eh?!

[Rob Clack]

Laurel & Hardy actually. And yes back to the topic....

[Currerbell]

Not Bonnie and Clyde then?


Ok, can I ask either of you, did you go with any expectations on these PC's before you researched them?

[Rob Clack]

Well I went went in with a fairly high opinion of them and seeing what some of them got up to, that opinion came crashing down to earth.

[Currerbell]

I can imagine...

[Rob Clack]

There's about another six to go. I think your eyes will pop out of their sockets.

[Currerbell]

Well I shall wait and 'see'....

[Jon Simons]

Frederick.

It was mentioned in the Harvey piece, subtley.

Hello Monty,

I couldn`t help noticing that your P.C. Holland is a different man to one I thought it may have been. Did you find your man in the police records?

[Mike Covell]

Mike Covell may wish to take up some research regarding our next subject, as there is a connection he may be interested in.

"I'm free....."

[Rob Clack]

Hi Jon,

All the surviving City Police application forms and service records are held at the London Metropolitan Archives.

Rob

Hello Monty,

I couldn`t help noticing that your P.C. Holland is a different man to one I thought it may have been. Did you find your man in the police records?

[Jon Simons]

Hi Jon,

All the surviving City Police application forms and service records are held at the London Metropolitan Archives.

Rob

Many thanks for that, Rob.