Thomas Cutbush

[How Brown]

Discussion for Cutbush in this Thread.

[Peter Wood]

It may have escaped your attention How, but there isn't one, mainly because Cutbush wasn't Jack the Ripper, Hell even the cops at the time said that much! Why not move onto a more realistic suspect like, umm, James Maybrick?

[How Brown]

Peter:

I don't know if you've been following the work A.P. Wolf and R.C.Linford have been doing over at Casebook, but there's some decent threads there that deserve a read.

I know you're going to mention Cutbush stabbing women in the keister a couple of years after 1888 and that that basically eliminates Cutbush ? Tell me the truth....

Well...lets look at it this way.

A serial killer doesn't usually change a successful m.o. But for a moment here, what if ....?

And if the police {Anderson,in this instance} were right....then where does that leave Sir Jim?

[Peter Wood]

What I would be interested in hearing comment on is why the Sun newspaper named Cutbush as Jack the Ripper ... then nothing came of it. Or did it? Was he able to sue for defamation? Where did he live? What was his address? What links him with the murders? Did he write a confessional diary?

[Robert Linford]

Hi Peter

You say nothing came of it. But there was something - the Macnaghten memorandum.

Robert

[Peter Wood]

Let me qualify that ... nothing came of it in terms of a prosecution ... in fact various members of the press, prominent politicians and police officers of the time offered other suspects after Cutbush was named, in fact the only thing they agreed on was that they couldn't agree on anything. Yes, I'm interested in Cutbush as a suspect, interested to know why the Sun should name him as JTR and not be sanctioned for it. Or were they?

Apologies Robert, I don't know what part of the world you are from, but in GB a few years ago we had a situation whereby a young black lad was attacked and killed at a bus stop. His name was Stephen Lawrence. Five white youths were arrested for the crime, but for various legal reasons the case against them collapsed. A national newspaper, strangely enough The Sun, NAMED them as the murderers and DARED them to sue if they thought they could. To this day they have yet to sue.

I'm not completely up to speed with Cutbush's story, but I'd be interested to find out if any legal action was taken, after all even old Leather Apron was rumoured to have received some compo for having his name defamed.

And as for the McNaghten Memoranda, in my mind that little piece of writing has done the world of ripperology more harm than any other piece of 'evidence'. People have seized on that and used it as evidence of guilt. Read it again, all McNaghten is saying is that any of the three men named would be a more likely candidate than Cutbush. It would be kind of like me saying "Rio Ferdinand? Pamela Anderson, J-Lo and Britney Spears would make better central defenders than him!" Or, if you're a yank, "Mike Tyson? Pamela Anderson, J-Lo, Brit ... you get the picture? I think McNaghten was ripping the pi55 - and all that stuff about "the more I think it over" or whatever it was that he said ... well, the fact is that Druitt wasn't JTR and has been proven so.

Anyway, time to get off my soap box.

[Robert Linford]

Well Peter, I'm from England and have a United-crazy nephew. I just tell him that they've never been the same since the days of Best, Charlton and Law.

I'm not sure if a lunatic can sue for libel, at least while he's a lunatic (which Cutbush was until his death in Broadmoor in 1903). But even if he can, I can think of reasons why it might not happen - the family might not want the publicity...or the lunatic might actually be guilty of what he's accused of.

If he were guilty, though, there'd have been no point in prosecuting him - as a lunatic, he couldn't swing. In fact, attendants at asylums complained that some lunatics were aware of their immunity, and could kill warders with impunity.

The case against Cutbush is still a-building, and I know we haven't yet proved his guilt. He's my personal front-runner, though.

PS When was it proved that Druitt couldn't have done it? :confused:

Robert

[Robert Linford]

For Peter, or anyone else who's interested, the "Sun" newspaper reports have been obtained by Natalie Severn and transcribed by Chris Scott. AP Wolf had previously used them in "Jack the Myth." They can be found at :
http://casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/18206.html

Robert

[A.P. Wolf]

Her Majesty's Pleasure was a terrible fate, even extending to the burial of the criminal after his demise.
His body and mind were sewn up forever.
I am quite frankly astonished that the Sun ever obtained permission to interview Thomas Cutbush in Broadmoor, and do feel that they had the blessing of a senior official in the Home Office or Scotland Yard to do so.
The situation is quite unique.

[Peter Wood]

Well, it was proven that MJD couldn't be our man when he was found to be playing cricket in Dorset or wherever on at least two occasions that coincided with the murders. Similarly, Prince Eddie was found to be in Scotland at the time of two or more murders, owing to royal court records, though the guide who recently showed me round the murder sites reckoned that the court records could have been faked. Oh please! Get me the flight logs for Guantanamo Bay!

[How Brown]

Peter...

What A.P. just mentioned regarding the accessibility of The Sun to interview or even see Cutbush is one of the reasons [ of several ] that I think A.P. is in the forefront of current Ripper research [ along with,of course,Robert Linford and Chris Scott,to name two more..].

Cutbush has been brushed aside casually in documentaries [ John Ross of The Black Museum does the dustjob in one of those documentaries ] as a non-starter. However,let me ask this: What if it were found out that another suspect had been questioned along the lines of this Sun meets Cutbush affair? Would we discard that so easily ?

Cutbush,of course,began his own quasi-Renwyck Williams imitation with stabbing women in the backside after the Autumn of 1888. There's nothing etched in stone that a serial killer must continue a pattern of evisceration [ the WM ]and not be able to change to a similar [ knifing ] but slightly safer way of harming people...

The argument about Chapman [ from mutilation to poisoning ] is harder to fathom,but with Cutbush,despite the less severe attacks for certain, its certainly worth pursuing Cutbush in any event.

[Peter Wood]

Hmmm ... have read the articles, started skipping through them when I found they weren't saying anything at all, they don't even name Cutbush! What a load of twaddle, some nonsense about a grey coat and being 5' 9" tall ... well whoopy doo! I'm off back to Maybrick, I'll leave you lot to waste your time on this thread.

Peter

P.S. Cutbush wasn't JTR - he needn't detain us.

[Robert Linford]

How, the main reason that some people dismiss Cutbush out of hand does seem to be the "lull" after Kelly, plus the comparatively innocuous jobbing.

It's a point I take on board, but I believe there's plenty more info to come to light yet.

Thanks for the compliments, How. Being bracketed with AP and Chris Scott is praise indeed (even if undeserved).

Robert

[A.P. Wolf]

Robert is quite right, Thomas would not have had recourse to legal action within Broadmoor, he was what we call today 'sectioned'.
His own immediate family were pursuing their own legal actions to disinherit Thomas from his inheritance during this time period, and from their witness statements at trial wanted Thomas locked up forever and forever amen.
It was in their own best and financial interest for Thomas to be sectioned in Broadmoor.
The fact that Chief Executive Superintendent Charles Henry Cutbush was silent during this busy time period is not merely a reflection of his own impending doom brought on by a - documented - increasing personal insanity, but also that he had applied for the job as Chief Constable of another county.
He certainly did not want to rock the boat at this time.

I would be highly interested to know of any other high ranking police official in the entire history of policing in the United Kingdom who has sat down at his table and then blown his brains out in front of his family.
Especially when that officer was involved in an investigation into a series of murders in which his nephew is named as a suspect.

How, you say the nicest things.

You're welcome and deserving of any kind words,A.P. You've done a lot of hard work [as R.C. has likewise ] and its to all our benefit to read what you folks dig up...

[Peter Wood]

So let's get this straight ... his uncle was mental, he was mental and he couldn't sue because, err, he just couldn't ... and somehow that all adds up to make him Jack the Ripper. Right.

Thomas Cutbush wasn't Jack the Ripper.

[A.P. Wolf]

Certain is that I never ever said Thomas Cutbush was Jack the Ripper, and Robert has gone to great pains to point out that he never ever said this.
In fact I don't think anyone - including The Sun - ever said that Thomas Cutbush was Jack the Ripper.
All anyone ever said around here, or anywhere else, is that he deserves to be looked at seriously in connection with the crimes attributed to the Whitechapel Murderer.
Now you, Peter, are telling us that we must accept the fact that a person called Maybrick was Jack the Ripper.
And you are right, and all our simple quests for a simple truth are wrong, because you are right.
Must be nice to wear them Jack-boots.

[Robert Linford]

AP's right, Thomas is indeed worth investigating, and we will continue to do so.

What's more, it's fun.

Robert

[A.P. Wolf]

It is fun, Robert, but only because we don't know if young Thomas was a killer.
We do know that he attempted to kill.
'Poor old gentleman has fallen down the stairs.'
Tried to slice his aunt's throat, and servant too.
But the one thing Thomas was never guilty of, was trying to shove himself down other people's throats.

[Peter Wood]

It's fun?? Welcome to your universe, population: you two.

Maybrick WAS Jack the Ripper, you haven't advanced a decent argument to why he wasn't, you've just cried into your milk with the usual " ... boo hoo, nasty Peter argues too vociferously for our liking, let's get all politically correct and gang up on him ..."

Just to get this even straighter: Neither Wolfy, Robert or, indeed, The Sun, has argued that Cutbush was the Ripper? Cool, at least we agree on one thing.

Although I think you'll find the Sun did point the finger.

And you wrote a book.

So what was all that about?

I know, I think I'll write a book and not bother accusing anyone of being JTR because I don't have any evidence.

Maybrick.

[Debra Arif]

[QUOTE=PETER WOOD]It's fun?? Welcome to your universe, population: you two.
Hi Peter
ermmm...make that three!
Although I may only count as a half wit seeing as it's taken me 2 weeks to fathom out how to log in. :confused:



Not confused or a half wit at all,Ms.Arif..

Occasionally we reset features on the site,for site maintenence and member security [ your security ]..Whenever someone has a "problem",its more likely that we tampered with prior settings...You're cool..its us. ;)

[Mats]

ermmm...make that three!

Peter... make that four. ;)

Actually, i can't understand how someone who thinks that the Ripper would have left us with such an error-bursting load of twaddle, can dismiss Cutbush as a time wasting suspect.


All the best...

Mats.


Three people who didn't wrote a diary:

1. Jack the Ripper
2. James Maybrick
3. Michael Barrett

[Peter Wood]

Error bursting load of twaddle? Hmmm ... please, enlighten me.

Nice to know that Wolfy and Robert have some friends at last ... keep taking the pills.

[How Brown]

Peter:

Here's a guy who had a history of violence to women other than his spouse.

Cutbush,as A.P. has pointed out, believed he may have contracted syphilis. Here then is a guy potentially with enough motivation to rip out prostitutes organs or simply kill them. Maybricks' old lady is sitting in the other room,while Maybrick is calm enough to write his feelings down on paper...crossing out "bad" lines of rhyme...and then resuming his routine all the while containing the obvious rage he had for her...and not as much as a scratch on her. A little odd ain't it?

There is the likely possibility that a genetic predisposition for mental instability existed in Cutbush's bloodline [ as with Druitt's ] that could explain his behavior. Cutbush didn't have syphilis. He thought he did. Combining that genetic factor in with this makes a real wild child. While stabbing women in the buttocks is a "step down" from evisceration,its not impossible. Furthermore,it would not be the first time that "The System" protected one of their own, as his uncle was Charles Cutbush.

And I'm not picking on Maybrick's candidacy here,Peter. I respect you too much to haggle about "Poste House" ...the 110 times the word or variation of the word "whore" appears...or that its very improbable that a killer would go to the length of writing down his thoughts without eventually killing the source of his inner demons. Whether anyone "likes" the Maybrick argument or not...it is there.

What really needs to be done, and A.P. and other Cutbush enthusiasts are doing just that,is finding interesting and relevant material on Cutbush.

The tests that need to be done.....need to be done to the Diary. Along with that, increased research on Maybrick would be nice.

[Mats]

Peter, sorry for being unclear.

I was just trying to say that my thoughts regarding James Maybrick and the Diary, are almost identical with your thoughts on Thomas Cutbush.

I'll have to agree with Howard on most of his points and i'm also not going to bore you with the "Post House" or McCormick's "funny little poems". It's just my personal view that Cutbush is a strong suspect, while Maybrick is not... and that Mr. Wolf deserves a lot of respect for his work on Thomas Cutbush. That all...


Cheers, Mats. ;)

[Peter Wood]

Do be do be do be do ... is that ten characters yet?



Here's a guy who had a history of violence to women other than his spouse

There were plenty of them around in 1888, what makes Thomas so special?

Cutbush,as A.P. has pointed out, believed he may have contracted syphilis. Here then is a guy potentially with enough motivation to rip out prostitutes organs or simply kill them

May have? Potentially? Are you being serious How? If everyone who caught a dose of the clap went around eviscerating whores then what would they do if something really serious happened to them?

Maybricks' old lady is sitting in the other room,while Maybrick is calm enough to write his feelings down on paper...crossing out "bad" lines of rhyme...

Maybrick's diary wasn't written at Battlecrease, therefore his old lady wasn't sitting in the 'other room'. Bad lines of rhyme? So you've got to be Eminem before you can be Jack the Ripper?

and then resuming his routine all the while containing the obvious rage he had for her

Read the books again How. Maybrick didn't contain his rage for Florie. He battered her.

...and not as much as a scratch on her. A little odd ain't it?


A black eye not enough How?

There is the likely possibility that a genetic predisposition for mental instability existed in Cutbush's bloodline [ as with Druitt's ] that could explain his behavior.

Likely? Could? Come on How, Spitalfields was full of nutters in 1888, certified nutters, real ones, not ones who just 'thought' they'd caught a dose of the clap and whose uncle got upset because his lottery numbers didn't come up.

Cutbush didn't have syphilis. He thought he did.

And your point is ... ?

Combining that genetic factor in with this makes a real wild child.

No it doesn't.

While stabbing women in the buttocks is a "step down" from evisceration,

A step down? That's like Al Qaeda giving up on bombs and using pea shooters instead.

its not impossible.

I'm a mathematician How, many things may not be "impossible", but they are so unlikely as to be to all intents and purposes impossible.

Furthermore,it would not be the first time that "The System" protected one of their own, as his uncle was Charles Cutbush.

Well, go on then, give me an example of when it has happened before.

And I'm not picking on Maybrick's candidacy here,Peter.

Yes, you are.

I respect you too much to haggle about "Poste House"

Correction, you fear my superior debating skills and the fact that I would tie you in knots. Do you want to have the 'Poste House' debate or do you just want to side step it with a quick 'I respect you too much ...'? Hey, Mr Tyson, I respect you too much to put you on your backside, but ...

...the 110 times the word or variation of the word "whore" appears

I fail to see the point of that last line.

...or that its very improbable that a killer would go to the length of writing down his thoughts without eventually killing the source of his inner demons.

Or that it's very improbable that a killer would do what he did to Mary Kelly then take up the relatively mellow pastime of stabbing women in the bottom.

The diary explains why James couldn't kill Florie. Read it.

Whether anyone "likes" the Maybrick argument or not...it is there.

Unlike the Cutbush argument, which is more "out there".

What really needs to be done, and A.P. and other Cutbush enthusiasts are doing just that,is finding interesting and relevant material on Cutbush.

Really? Wow! Why haven't they shared some of it with us or, hey, even better, publish it in a book!

The tests that need to be done.....need to be done to the Diary.

The tests WERE done on the diary. It passed ALL of them. Go ask Rod McNeill if you don't believe me. The diary has passed every test thrown at it, in the face of much adversity but the rest of the ripper community will not give it the respect it deserves.


Along with that, increased research on Maybrick would be nice

Why? What more do you want to know about him? He was Jack the Ripper, why do you need to know what colour underwear he wore or if he stirred his tea clockwise or anticlockwise?

Yawn, please stop wasting my time and come up with a decent question on Maybrick, one that you think I will struggle with.

But you know I won't.

.

[Peter Wood]

Peter, sorry for being unclear.

You weren't in the least unclear. Quite the opposite, your grasp of the ripper case and all the material surrounding it shone through like a ... erm ... shiny thing.

I was just trying to say that my thoughts regarding James Maybrick and the Diary, are almost identical with your thoughts on Thomas Cutbush.

Very well said, too. However, you misread me, I am not, per se, down on poor old Thomas as JtR, just down on the fact that the presentation of the 'evidence' is so regrettably poor.


I'll have to agree with Howard on most of his points

Why?

and i'm also not going to bore you with the "Post House" or McCormick's "funny little poems".

If you think that would bore me then you obviously don't know me. You'd get bored before me because I'm right, you're wrong.

It's just my personal view that Cutbush is a strong suspect,

oh, my aching sides!

while Maybrick is not...

This I don't mind, providing you have a position from which to argue. Which, of course, you do not.

and that Mr. Wolf deserves a lot of respect for his work on Thomas Cutbush.

As do all the people who have done 'work' on other 'serious' ripper contenders, e.g. Lewis Carroll, Dr Barnardo and Roslyn D'Onston. They've all had books written about them, doesn't make them JtR, doesn't make the authors Gods. Quite the opposite, in fact.


That all...

Thank the Lord for that, I thought you were never going to shut up.


Cheers, Mats. ;)

Cheers, Peter. ;)

P.S. Do be do be do ... I have to do this every time.

[How Brown]

........Originally Posted by How Brown

Here's a guy who had a history of violence to women other than his spouse

There were plenty of them around in 1888, what makes Thomas so special?

Pete: Nothing really,other than out of the "plenty",he has been mentioned in the McNaughten Memoranda...

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Cutbush,as A.P. has pointed out, believed he may have contracted syphilis. Here then is a guy potentially with enough motivation to rip out prostitutes organs or simply kill them

May have? Potentially? Are you being serious How? If everyone who caught a dose of the clap went around eviscerating whores then what would they do if something really serious happened to them?

Peter: Someone with prior mental instability and in addition believes he is infected with Old Joe in 1888 sounds like someone who could have a score to settle if we look at it as a potential motivation. Not just for Cutbush...but for any crazy bastard.
**********************************************

Maybricks' old lady is sitting in the other room,while Maybrick is calm enough to write his feelings down on paper...crossing out "bad" lines of rhyme...

Maybrick's diary wasn't written at Battlecrease, therefore his old lady wasn't sitting in the 'other room'. Bad lines of rhyme? So you've got to be Eminem before you can be Jack the Ripper?

Good one ! No you've got to be Johnny Rotten...you know that ;)

*********************************************
and then resuming his routine all the while containing the obvious rage he had for her

Read the books again How. Maybrick didn't contain his rage for Florie. He battered her.

Battered ? Evidently not enough for her to split. She's still in the other proverbial room...why bother whacking chicks in London ?

*********************************************
...and not as much as a scratch on her. A little odd ain't it?


A black eye not enough How?

Okay..a black eye. My mistake and oversight... Juxtapose a black eye to the ripping up of a complete stranger...no,make that 4 or 5 strangers. 'tis the same?
********************************************
There is the likely possibility that a genetic predisposition for mental instability existed in Cutbush's bloodline [ as with Druitt's ] that could explain his behavior.

Likely? Could? Come on How, Spitalfields was full of nutters in 1888, certified nutters, real ones, not ones who just 'thought' they'd caught a dose of the clap and whose uncle got upset because his lottery numbers didn't come up.

Peter: I'm just mentioning that his family,like Druitt's had a tendency to have mental disorders....and by the way,homes...there were many arsenic addicts too that could also have murdered people,like Maybrick.
******************************************

Cutbush didn't have syphilis. He thought he did.

And your point is ... ?

This point covered above,bro....


Combining that genetic factor in with this makes a real wild child.

No it doesn't.

It could.
*************************************

While stabbing women in the buttocks is a "step down" from evisceration,

A step down? That's like Al Qaeda giving up on bombs and using pea shooters instead.

Bundy went from calculated serial killing on his terms....to committing a wild spree-killing at Florida State University..same result...but done as if by another type of killer. Asspoking ain't eviscerating,for sure. There's no telling what a crazy person's mind is like...or will do in different circumstances.

its not impossible.

I'm a mathematician How, many things may not be "impossible", but they are so unlikely as to be to all intents and purposes impossible.

Like writing a diary or stocking a uterus collection or laying out a profaning of the cross or having a fistula full of anger ?

**********************************************
Furthermore,it would not be the first time that "The System" protected one of their own, as his uncle was Charles Cutbush.

Well, go on then, give me an example of when it has happened before.

Its tough to point one out here,I'll admit. But if politicians and officials will try to keep bad puppies on a short leash,if they could create embarrassment for the big dogs,then it ain't far fetched at all...
*******************************************

And I'm not picking on Maybrick's candidacy here,Peter.

Yes, you are.

No,actually I'm not. I swear. I admire you and your adherence to the whole Maybrick sh...stuff.. Homes,you know that.
******************************************

I respect you too much to haggle about "Poste House"

Correction, you fear my superior debating skills and the fact that I would tie you in knots. Do you want to have the 'Poste House' debate or do you just want to side step it with a quick 'I respect you too much ...'? Hey, Mr Tyson, I respect you too much to put you on your backside, but ...

I know Caroline Morris is searching for a pub named the Poste House...I'd rather get into debate with her and put on my backside by her. Lets wait and see if she finds one...then its me and you,bro...


...the 110 times the word or variation of the word "whore" appears

I fail to see the point of that last line.

Then you fail to see the emphasis on Maybrick's rage or excuse me...the over emphasis...on this word. We both know the value of this word,regarding the implied hatred Maybrick had for his wife and prostitutes as it is read by the average reader. It is a trigger word,just like they use in commercial advertising, albeit more violent..
*******************************************
...or that its very improbable tha
t a killer would go to the length of writing down his thoughts without eventually killing the source of his inner demons.

Or that it's very improbable that a killer would do what he did to Mary Kelly then take up the relatively mellow pastime of stabbing women in the bottom.

Fair enough...but on your part a non sequitor. You are answering my claim with a different scenario. But I do see your point,pardner...

***************************************


Whether anyone "likes" the Maybrick argument or not...it is there.

Unlike the Cutbush argument, which is more "out there".


I'm actually agreeing with you here in my statement...it is there.
*****************************************
What really needs to be done, and A.P. and other Cutbush enthusiasts are doing just that,is finding interesting and relevant material on Cutbush.



Really? Wow! Why haven't they shared some of it with us or, hey, even better, publish it in a book!

A.P.'s book has been published, buddy...and its available free over at Casebook. Ah,yer knew that !

************************************************** *****
The tests that need to be done.....need to be done to the Diary



The tests WERE done on the diary. It passed ALL of them. Go ask Rod McNeill if you don't believe me. The diary has passed every test thrown at it, in the face of much adversity but the rest of the ripper community will not give it the respect it deserves.

I'm giving it the respect and full props,my peeps ! I'm not arguing against it...The heavyweights of anti-Diary theory who know all about the ink and migration and all that technical crap say it ain't. Call me "parrot" !

**********************************************
Along with that, increased research on Maybrick would be nice

Why? What more do you want to know about him? He was Jack the Ripper, why do you need to know what colour underwear he wore or if he stirred his tea clockwise or anticlockwise?

List the locales that Maybrick were in on the 4 dates of the C5...right here and now...or I'm boosting Arsenal !!!!

Yawn, please stop wasting my time and come up with a decent question on Maybrick, one that you think I will struggle with.

But you know I won't.

Thats my man...my goombah....here's a question:

Hey...any chance of Maybrick's name ever appearing in print with the WM that some enterprising independent genius may have seen,say like in the early 20th century ?

[Peter Wood]

he has been mentioned in the McNaughten Memoranda...

Oh dear, he was only mentioned in respect of him NOT being Jack the Ripper! Dear Dear Howard, when will you learn?

She's still in the other proverbial room...why bother whacking chicks in London ?

Ahhhh, so now it's a proverbial room??? Whitechapel, Liverpool - Whitechapel, London. Maybrick worked and lived in both places.


Juxtapose a black eye to the ripping up of a complete stranger...no,make that 4 or 5 strangers. 'tis the same?

Juxtapose the ripping up of a complete stranger to the rather tame exercise of poking women's bottoms. Ahem ...


I'm just mentioning that his family,like Druitt's had a tendency to have mental disorders

No, no, no! His family? Oh please! If that isn't over generalising, then what is? One member of his family killed himself? Big deal. Happens all the time.

It could.

It couldn't.

Bundy went from calculated serial killing on his terms ... blah blah blah, rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb ...

Jack the Ripper, you would have us believe, had a mind that could degenerate to the point where he tried to take Mary Kelly down to her skeleton ... and then revert to poking women's bottoms? Bundy v Cutbush? No contest.

...or stocking a uterus collection

Who had a uterus collection? I have NEVER, subscribed to the theory that the ripper's intention was to appraise himself of the victims' uteri. Why? Well, if he had, then why not take Mary Kelly's? He appears to have hung around there longer than at any other scene, hell he could have had the lot!


Its tough to point one out here,I'll admit. But if politicians and officials will try to keep bad puppies on a short leash,if they could create embarrassment for the big dogs,then it ain't far fetched at all...

So your original point was bollox then? And this little piece of spin is beneath you How.

know Caroline Morris is searching for a pub named the Poste House...

Why bother? There is no indication in the diary that the 'poste house' was the name of the pub/cafe/whatever - i.e. places that collected post and, for some reason also served beverages, were routinely referred to as a 'poste house'. And even if it had been the name of the pub/cafe etc then what gives you the idea that the diarist was referring to Liverpool? Could have been in London, buddy. Those poste houses are all over the place. Hell, I have one a few miles from here. Got any in Philly? One more thing on that point, though the poste house in Liverpool used to be known by other names, including Muck Midden, at last search no one had found it's original name, because it was missing from the deeds. Agonising, yes, but it could well have been called ... wait for it ... the poste house.

You are answering my claim with a different scenario.

No Howard, I am shooting you down in flames my friend. Crashed and burned, baby.

who know all about the ink and migration and all that technical crap

Precisely, when faced with something that you can't refute just bury your head in the sand and cry 'crap'.

List the locales that Maybrick were in on the 4 dates of the C5

No, my friend, YOU show me one, just one, letter, meeting, doctor's appointment that would even go so far as merely suggesting Maybrick could not have been in London on the dates of the C5. His life is documented Howard. Go look. Fact is that we have old James living and working in Whitechapel and completely familiar with the area. His trips abroad, to his brother's houses, to Scotland, to the doctor, meetings etc ... they are all documented. Go and find the piece of paper that says Maybrick was having a back wax on 9 November 1888 and I'll be your bitch for all eternity.

Hey...any chance of Maybrick's name ever appearing in print with the WM that some enterprising independent genius may have seen,say like in the early 20th century ?

What is WM? I don't understand. Are you referring to a possible old forgery? Sorry How, that doesn't wash ... the scientific tests, remember?

Later my friend, tonight has been fun, the first signs of life in your little community.

By the way bro', I know I should put this on another thread, but England qualified for the world cup finals and beat Poland 2 - 1 tonight. Rooney was the man.

[How Brown]

"List the locales that Maybrick were in on the 4 dates of the C5

No, my friend, YOU show me one, just one, letter, meeting, doctor's appointment that would even go so far as merely suggesting Maybrick could not have been in London on the dates of the C5. His life is documented Howard. Go look. Fact is that we have old James living and working in Whitechapel and completely familiar with the area. His trips abroad, to his brother's houses, to Scotland, to the doctor, meetings etc ... they are all documented. Go and find the piece of paper that says Maybrick was having a back wax on 9 November 1888 and I'll be your bitch for all eternity.

*******************************************
I am your bitch and I'll wax whatever ya wish....IF !

You show me that he was in Whitechapel on August 31st...September 8th..September 30th...and November 9th.

Then you and Shirley surely have me for back rubbing,mole removal...you name it.

--------------------------------------------------------
Rooney is the man. Thanks for that update. Thats great news.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks for the support, boys and girls.
If we get a few more we could defend the Alamo.

Actually in regard to Pete's desire to see a case where the relative of a very senior police officer has protected that relative from prosecution in very serious criminal offences, there is a chapter in the Myth devoted to that very subject.
This was the Essen-Bochum rapist.
If you like, How, I'll copy over a few of the relevant passages.

As regards Pete's other desire to hear one good reason why Maybrick was not the Ripper... I already did that and have still as yet not had an adequate reply. The examples given by Pete were not correct or valid.
If Maybrick was Jack the Ripper then he is the only serial killer in the entire history of the world who has been killed by another killer.
This is like finding a submarine in the Sahara.
It could happen but it never did yet.

[Peter Wood]

As regards Pete's other desire to hear one good reason why Maybrick was not the Ripper... I already did that and have still as yet not had an adequate reply.

Sorry Alan, Anthony, Alex ... (delete where applicable - and don't go making your own gags up), I must have missed it. Repeat your question, whatever it was you said, and be assured that I will give it my fullest attention.

I'm at a loss to understand why you think that James being killed by Florie should lessen his candidacy as Jack the Ripper?? Remember, the ripper murders had already happened by the time James died - and Florie's subsequent conviction - and, as any mathematician/statistician will tell you, the probability of A given B is exactly equal to the probability of A. I.E. The probability of James being JtR remains entirely unchanged regardless of who killed him.

Is this really what you are pinning your hopes on? Is this the best you've got? You choose not to argue the ink, the language of the diary, the alleged anachronisms, but rather hide behind Florie's petticoats.

Bad boy Wolfy, bad boy.

Yours truly

Peter not Pete.

[Peter Wood]

If Maybrick was Jack the Ripper then he is the only serial killer in the entire history of the world who has been killed by another killer.

Not sure what you mean by 'killed by another killer', because if the person who kills the serial killer wasn't a 'killer' before then they most certainly are afterwards. Anyway, I very tentatively propose the following three words for your perusal:

Lee Harvey Oswald.

Two known murders, one failed attempted murder. Killed by Jack Ruby.

Not that it has the slightest bearing on James Maybrick being JtR, of course.

Peter

P.S. James Maybrick really was Jack the Ripper.

[A.P. Wolf]

The killer of JFK was a serial killer?
Right, Pete, I'll just adjust the orbit of the planet and say I give in, you are right.
Maybrick was Jack the Ripper.

But I still don't think he was the Whitechapel Murderer.

[Peter Wood]

Notice I proposed his name tentatively, giving some leeway for how you would define serial killer. But, he did murder more than one person and attempted at least one other ... or isn't that good enough for you?

Anyway, as I said before, none of this will help decide on James's guilt.

But he did do it.

Perhaps I should read your book again, it's been a long time.

[Peter Wood]

Is Jeffrey Dahmer still alive?

[A.P. Wolf]

Peter, Dahmer was never 'alive'.



Good point A.P....very true. An automaton.

Peter...I believe that there was a discrepancy with the caliber of gun that killed Officer Tippett and the gun he was eventually found with at the Texas Theatre. Unless he carried two guns,and if some of the witnesses memories were correct...he may not have killed that officer. How

[A.P. Wolf]

1823Appt (Licensing)Cutbush, CharlesEdmonton / (http://eagle.cch.kcl.ac.uk:8080/cce/locations/CreateLocationFrames.jsp?locUnitKey=12669)Stipendi ary Curate1823Appt (Licensing)Cutbush, CharlesEdmonton / Stipendiary Curate

Bloody hell, cleaning out my drawers, I find this, and I remember saying that all roads led back to Edmonton about five years ago.
This Cutbush had definite links to St Botolph's, Aldgate, at the time.

[A.P. Wolf]

These Cutbush fellows didn't stop at stabbing women!
From 'Thirty Years in India' by Henry Bevan (1839):

'
IN INDIA. 251
him through the river he felt in his belt for his
cuttyjack ; it was fortunately by his side, and with
determined resolution he drew it from its sheath
and plunged it deep into the tiger's breast, immediately
beneath the insertion of the left fore-arm.
A violent spasm, occasioned by the convulsive clutch
of the tiger, the report of fire-arms, and all recollection
passed away from Mr. Cutbush, until he awoke
again to consciousness, extended on the sandy shore
of the Hambaggee, with his friends around him,
Captain Drummage and, Lieut. Pinkwell leaning
on their rifles, Lieutenant Maggies resting on
a buddekar, with his left arm in a sling, and the
body of the tiger pierced with innumerable wounds
stretched in death at their feet. It appears that, on
being stabbed by Mr. Cutbush, the tiger dropped
his victim, and raised himself for a moment, a
better mark for the rifles of the hunters, who, with
admirable precision, sent each an ounce ball clean
through his head. To save Mr. Cutbush from
drowning was but the work of a moment; one of
the chimrowzees swam off, and brought him to the
shore, while, with a lasso, the remainder of the
party dragged the dead tiger on the beach. This
enormous animal was found to measure 24 feet in
length. We are glad to find that, though much
hurt, there is nothing dangerous in the wounds received
by either Mr. Cutbush or Lieut. Maggies."

[Robert Linford]

Blake would have had one or two words to say to him, AP.

[A.P. Wolf]

Indeed Robert

Tyger, Tyger burning bright
'ere's my knife
now say 'goodnight'.

[A.P. Wolf]

On a more serious note, Robert, I found this entry in the 'Domesday Book of Kent' for 1877, thinking that Luke Flood Cutbush came much later than this?

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/flood1.jpg

[Robert Linford]

That's strange, AP, because he died 1872 in Richmond.

[A.P. Wolf]

Must be a Cantebury Tale then, Robert.

[A.P. Wolf]

'ere's a good one for Robert to get his teeth into?
All mine have gone but hopefully Robert 'as a few left.
Pall Mall Gazette 10th March 1870:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/tt1.jpg

[Robert Linford]

Hi AP

This rang a bell, because I remembered the name Lavinia and that it was something to do with Lambert (who adopted a Cutbush in Buck's Row). I remembered it was also something to do with Lavinia and "husband" putting "married" in the 71 census when they were not married.

Anyway, just checked and she (Lavinia Lambert) was "married" to George Cutbush although they had children and the actual wedding seems to have occurred just after the 71 census.

Somewhere on one of the old Casebook threads I went into the matter. I don't think it's TTC because his surname isn't mentioned, and he'd have had to return from Oz just to have his thumb bitten! He could have got that from scores of Aussie Sheilas.

Robert

[Robert Linford]

Not much of Cutbush interest in the Guardian unless you're into roses. I did find this though - posted with an unimportant bit left out because of the weird site setup.

GUARDIAN JAN 18th 1893

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/CUT20JAN20182093.jpg

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/CUT20JAN20182093202.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

I've a hunch that young Thomas was of an appearance quite similar to this Cutbush.
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/a20cutbush.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

I'll try that in a larger size.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Mac2w.jpg

[Robert Linford]

AP, if anything he looks like Druitt.

"Police found a brightly polished penny farthing at the feet of Chapman."

[A.P. Wolf]

Ah but, my dear Robert, wait until you see this, and then me blasted theories are complicated:

'
A letter of rebuttal by Charles Cutbush to the "Referee" dated 30 April 1890:
Dear Sir
Noticing a letter in the "Referee" of today's date signed "Rudge", re: the overland ride from Adelaide to Sydney of Mr Whatmore and myself, I am sorry to be forced into a reply, but, in justice, I am compelled to make some remarks. I am not at all surprised that the write is not man enough to sign his own name, but must cloak himself under a non deplume. In all branches of sport when a man gains some credit to himself by performance which places him somewhat above his fellows, there is always some doubting Thomas who will come forward and discredit it, actuated by a jealous disposition and a total ignorance of facts. I am afraid I must rank "Rudge" amongst this class. Firstly, he says we did not make a record from Adelaide to Melbourne, because we took train from Kingston to Naracoorte and the previous riders did not. It is very evident that he knows nothing about the subject on which he is writing, and, as you have already pointed out, every cyclist who has ridden the trip took train between these two towns on account of the country being of such a swampy nature through which it is impossible to ride. We were very unwilling, I can assure you, to take the train, and when we arrived at Kingston had fully decided to go through but the people in the town told us we were more fit for a lunatic asylum that anything else if we stuck to our intention. After this, we were compelled to give in. When we arrived in Melbourne, we received a telegram from Mr A Gault of Adelaide, the previous record holder, congratulating us on our performance, and if he is satisfied, I think "Rudge" ought to be.
Secondly, he says we claim the record from Melbourne to Sydney. He is quite right. We do. He goes on to say Mr Allen, of the Redferns holds it. In this he is wrong. Mr Allen holds the Sydney to Melbourne record, but we have the fastest time between the two cities, ours being 69 hours against Mr Allen's 78 hours. He also makes the very foolish excuse that we took a shorter route than Mr Allen. Well, whose fault is that? Certainly not our's. I hold that a rider making a record between two cities is at liberty to take the shortest possible route, and I suppose Mr Allen went via Wagga that the roads were in better condition.
Lastly, he says Mr Allen did not ride all day and all night, like we did. I would like to know where he got his information. Had we done this, we would not have been worth much, when we arrived in Sydney. Only in one instance did we start at midnight, and that was to make a record between Goulburn and
Sydney which, as everyone is aware, we were compelled to relinquish on account of being overtaken by dense fog. I agree with "Rudge" there will always be someone (like himself) to dispute records, and I should like to see the Union from a Sub-Committee to govern road records, to whom a rider could apply and have arrangements made whereby he would have fair treatment.
Thanking you in anticipation -
I am & c.
Chas Cutbush'

I rest my case.

[Robert Linford]

It all fits together, AP. Mind you, the only yellow jersey I ever had was when I spilled custard down my front.