Robert Stephenson: Beyond the Myths

[How Brown]

One of my favorite areas of Ripperology is the strange tale of Robert Stephenson...part myth..part bogeyman...part misfit...part writer of some talent...part moocher...part adventurer...and possibly Jack The Ripper.

Over at Casebook,I started the threads some time ago with the hope that people who were as equally interested in RDS would assist in the reassessment of some of the aspects of his life. I lucked out.

I was able to attract some terrific people,such as tireless investigator, John Savage,the world class researcher and friend, Robert Linford, Spiro Dimolianis,and Nina Thomas,an intrepid and determined researcher in her own right. Nina,for example,provided what probably is the death certificate of RDS' former wife and assumed victim,Anne Stephenson,nee Deary

Instead of taking those posts and reimplementing them here...what I would like to do is discuss RDS on a simple,easy,point by point basis here. The meat of the Stephenson story should remain at Casebook,as that is the best place for newcomers and the majority of Ripperologists to get their first glimpse or more information on this strange character.

In fact, I am desirous that any Stephenson follower or researcher contribute or even debate what JTR Forums will strive to do....Provide the most accurate and in depth study of Stephenson for one and all...

I don't look at Stephenson quite in the way some others may. I don't see him entirely as some "cool,calculating criminal mind.." or a " devout occultist intent on dredging up evil spirits for some intrinsic goal...".

In fact, Stephenson was not,as it is inferred,a criminal in the way we gauge a criminal...You can't use a "criminal background" and the accumulated knowledge of the ways of muggers,thieves,con men,safe crackers,and the lot to judge a serial killer such as Jack The Ripper or Stephenson. This is comparing apples to oranges....both fruits,but considerably different mentalities in operation. The tricks of the trade of a cab driver and a truck driver are nowhere near comparison....yet both drive.

Stephenson has no criminal record to base an assessment such as that to judge from.

Stephenson,despite a threadbare work record,has not shown up in any police logs or prisons...yet.

Stephenson leaving Brighton to go to London Hospital for the treatment of neurosthenia,which is in my opinion, a weak reason to stay in Hospital for 134 days, may be a valid one in reality. He may have been sick. I just don't personally swallow the story.

This brings up the bolthole idea....

Instead of basing his "h.q." at London Hospital, a man of the intelligence that RDS possessed would not go to this additional risk of acquiring a bolthole,as well as being a resident patient in London Hospital. It makes no sense from a logical and practical viewpoint...to me.

Your views,please.......

[Robert Linford]

How, I've been trying without success to find out how much RDS would have had to pay for a private bed at LH.

Anyway, there's some stuff about LH at http://www.victorianlondon.org/

(Under health and hygiene)

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

Thanks for trying and we hope you recieve an answer. I did e-mail the London Hospital on at least three occasions previously,but didn't recieve an answer. They may have a rigid policy [ even for those interested in data from 117 years ago,I don't know...] of privacy regarding disclosure to some person using an e-mail for the elicitation of information.

In any event, you've touched upon "cost". This is a part of this bolthole "problem", from my point of view....

After leaving Brighton and after the mysterious death/accident/suicide of Edmund Gurney,I might add...Stephenson checked in one month after the Inquest, not immediately. Stephenson MAY have been in London [ having friends in Islington to stay with or at some other spot] for up to one month before he signed in.

Therefore...RDS did NOT immediately go to London Hospital and was somewhere else for one month. Its impossible to determine whether his decision to enter the Hospital came before his departure from Brighton or during this 30 day interim. I am aware of one theorist's postulation that declares that RDS fabricated the idea of the Whitechapel Murders while in Brighton. This is impossible to prove and yet another myth regarding RDS. There ARE other alternatives that are far more likely,of which I shall posit in the immediate future.

The cost of a semi-private room [ for which he stayed in almost 4 and 1/2 months ] would have made this bolthole [ for which he ALSO would have had to pay for, for 4 and 1/2 months....kept pristine...or at least free of any evidence that would make a landlord suspicious ] unfeasible to say the least and very risky to boot.

The assumption that he used these organs [ and I for one used to believe in this concept very strongly ] for occult motives becomes less and less tenable as time goes by. Here's why.....

There's no guarantee that the landlord wouldn't enter his dwelling during the time RDS was in Hospital. This possibility,coupled with the fact RDS had to worry about being seen leaving and most importantly,re-entering the Hospital without being questioned, makes the bolthole idea,already an additional and unnecessary strain on RDS, even less plausible to me. In addition,if RDS knew his landlord personally,there would be less reason for the landlord to feel "out of order' to enter this bolthole,for whatever reason,during the time RDS was in absentia...

Stephenson, had he been the Ripper,didn't necessarily have to make candles or even take them anywhere,in all reality.

Stephenson's "bizarre candles" that Cremers describes in the O'Donnell Manuscript and Melvin Harris reported in "The True Face of JTR", may very well have used in occult practices...and been out of human fat.

But this does not mean that they were from the victims of JTR.

The organs taken by Stephenson could NOT provide enough fat to make a candle[ the "foul pieces" on page 67 of True Face ] such as what was described by Cremers. Eddowes kidney,Chapman's uterus,Kelly's heart,ad nauseum wouldn't provide much in the way of body fat.

Its plausible and a little more likely that the organs were discarded along route back to London Hospital [ if you put RDS in the picture as being JTR].

Or...he may have just dumped them in the nearest loo.

[Robert Linford]

Well How, I have the same problems with the idea of RDS slipping in and out of LH as I have with Barnett slipping in and out of Buller's. Not impossible, maybe, but it seems a bizarre way to commit murder.

I suppose his location does make him ideally placed to have written the Lusk letter, though.

Sorry for asking a stupid question, but do we know whether Edmund Gurney was related to Catherine Gurney, the Brighton/Hove Seaside Home lady? (no female vistors, only two inches of water in the bath).

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

I am not sure about his relationship to that lady,sir. By the way...nothing you say is a "dumb question". I'm the dumb question man.

I have trouble with him getting back into the Hospital,rather than exiting,myself...you aren't alone in that respect.

In fact,allow me to post briefly why I became so interested in him at all,aside from the distance theory worked out by Mr. Edwards,which to me,if one looks at the layout.... is pretty hard to argue against....not including Kelly,which may be another story altogether.....


1. Cremer's tie story, if true,at the top....
2. His awareness of organs used in rituals [ although not unique].
3. His discussion of the word "Juives".
4. Other little gnawing things that I won't take up space with at present..


Spiro Dimolianis wrote a great post over on Casebook regarding a previously written article in a newspaper and how it may have influenced RDS. I think he might have written the December 1st letter in the same way he eventually wrote that quasi-Haggard story later on in the same paper for the same man.

Nevertheless,I tend to lean toward him writing the Dec.1st article in the PMG [ He was paid 4 pounds for this...off the top of my head here...]. However,Spiro may well be right in the final scheme of things and Stephenson might not have written it,to be totally objective.

He made a definite gender mistake with the use of "Juives" as a generic term for Jews. However,his "interest" in the Graffiti,and of course he places it in Mitre Square, seemed odd and still seems odd. Overshadowing the error of gender,his elaborate explanation is what "bit" me.

For some damned reason,I was under the impression [ from reading so much in so short of a time,perhaps...] that the man who went to visit Emily Marsh was dressed like a delivery man. I didn't realize,until Dave Radka pointed it out, that the man who went to visit Ms.Marsh was dressed in cleric's clothes.

If it was Stephenson who went to Marsh's shop....and was the man inquiring about Lusk's address [ being fully aware that this man might not have been the package-with-kidney-messenger ]....then where the hell did he obtain cleric's clothes?

Dave helped me out in this matter,unintentionally,because it now made me cast doubt on RDS being the "delivery man" in the first place.

**************************************************

Robert [ and all ] ...By all means,if there are serious flaws you see in the Stephenson saga, please post them.

We don't play favorites here. My "goal" regarding Stephenson [ personally ] is to get this guy off the hook...make him more worthy of study....or find that one thing we need regarding his guilt.

To be honest....there have been some things said in public [ Aliffe and Fido ] that required re-examining. God Bless Mr. Fido,but RDS didn't attend Heidelberg. I am working on the claim that Andy made about RDS getting a law degree. I am in the process of obtaining a video tape where A.A. discussed RDS and want to see/hear what transpired at a 2001 Cloak and Dagger meeting,where Andy said/didn't say,RDS had a law degree.

This is an example of the length the average Joe has to go to find out things about RDS, without having that damned O'Donnell.

I feel very down that the O'Donnell will be put up for auction [ Maureen Harris is putting it up soon...] and some non-Ripperologist will probably be the one to buy it. :( :( :(

Thats one reason [ as I anticipated not only this,but other events down the road ] I pushed for a cadre of people working together with money,to obtain those items we need in our collective research over at Casebook a year or so ago.... I believe that ,as a result of this,the great Chris Scott instituted his "E-bay watch" over at Casebook.

Its so hard for us to compete with some idle rich schnook.

[Robert Linford]

How, I suppose there's no question of a copy of the O'Donnell being made before it's sold? I guess it would affect the selling price?

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

I am still trying to get Mrs. Birchwood to move Mrs.Harris in that direction.

Its going to be tough, but in the interest of Ripperology and in particular,RDS study, its almost a must.

[Robert Linford]

How, did we ever get census details on brother Richard? It's just that there was a Richard Stephenson, born 1840 in Sculcoates, living in London. In 1881 he's at Islington, near RDS. He gives himself as independent means. In 1891 he's at St Pancras and his occupation is financial secretary to a company and broker. He had a French wife.

There was also an older Stephenson named Robert living in London. He had houses and property, and obviously wasn't short of a bob or two.

Could the period between Brighton and LH have been spent, first living with a relative, and then touching them for the money to book into LH?

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:


How, did we ever get census details on brother Richard? It's just that there was a Richard Stephenson, born 1840 in Sculcoates, living in London. In 1881 he's at Islington, near RDS. He gives himself as independent means. In 1891 he's at St Pancras and his occupation is financial secretary to a company and broker. He had a French wife.

Thats what I think myself,sir. Its quite likely that Stephenson did move in with his older brother [ by one year ] and his sister in law.



There was also an older Stephenson named Robert living in London. He had houses and property, and obviously wasn't short of a bob or two.

If thats true,then it sure doesn't fit our Robert. Could this just be a matter of another man being named Robert ?

Could the period between Brighton and LH have been spent, first living with a relative, and then touching them for the money to book into LH?

This may very well have been how he was able to gain admission to the LH.

Great post,Robert.

[Robert Linford]

How, the older man was Robert Stephenson, born Hull c.1810. He shows up in 1861, 81 and 91 as living at the same house in Hackney, and even has the same servant in 91 that he has in 61.

The reason I mention him is that John Savage's research has shown us what a bewildering variety of inter-related Stephensons there were in the Hull area.

Robert

Yes sir, John has uncovered a large number of Stephensons that hailed from Hull...John has been an extremely important link to Hull's history,as you know,regarding the Stephenson clan.

[How Brown]

Before I forget Robert...

In the 11 years since True Face came out and 17 since the Secret Identity program was first broadcast...what you posited about the possibility that RDS went to live with older brother before going to the LH is the first time I've ever seen that scenario mentioned.

You sort of take me to task here sir,for never mentioning it....and I'm sort of glad you did.

It only proves that at times people so wrapped up in figuring out where a pre-LH bolthole would be...wouldn't be...or whatever, tend to overlook the obvious. Thanks for the wake-up call.

I'm wondering now if there exists a hospital register which lists the visitors to patients in LH. It might be illuminating.

See what you started,Robert ? ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Robert Linford]

How, I believe LH records like cash books etc are still extant. But have these documents already been thoroughly combed by Harris, Edwards etc?

Robert

[Robert Linford]

I never knew that RDS married his brother's servant. There's a Richard Stephenson Jr at Willow House, Church St (that address rings several bells), Sculcoates, age 31, Consul (sic), Councillor and timber merchant. Servant, Anne Deary (1871 census).

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

Your question from two posts prior as to if these records have been examined...

If they were...and anything was gleaned by Mr. Harris...we won't know.

Hopefully one day I can invade Britain [ our turn to invade,a la 1964 ] and check that out or maybe someone else could check into it.



Maybe its time for others to look into LH records and perhaps we can find a date....lets say a date where RDS was being visited by his brother...or someone else....when he supposed to have been wandering the streets of the East End. Or perhaps a date where Dr. Sutton had notated that RDS was ill with a cold...say on September 29th or so....
**************************************************

Your surprise that he married his brother's servant is rivalled by mine.
On page 104 of True Face, Mr. Harris mentions RDS marrying "his mother's illiterate servant girl..."

Not to be a wise guy,Robert....but is certain that it says Richard Jr. married Anne Deary ?

[Robert Linford]

Not married, How. She was his servant.

Robert

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/STEP2071.gif

[Robert Linford]

It would be interesting if this was RDS's brother.

Anyway, I've found the Casebook references that John made to Willow House :

http://casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/20452.html

Robert

[John Savage]

Hi Robert and Howard,

I think I should stress that so far I have not been able to prove a definite link between the Stephensons of Hull Bridge and old Sudden Death. My investigations continue, but what I really need is to find out were Donston's father was born.

Anyway my feeling is still that it is unlikely to have two diifferent familes engaged in the same business within 7 or 8 miles of each other.

Rgds
John

Good to see you John....thanks for the post and your work ! ;)

[Robert Linford]

There was an Isabella Stephenson, death registered June quarter 1891 at Sculcoates, age 81. This may have been RDS's mother.

Robert

Yes Robert,thats her. That and a lot other census and registry material are over on Casebook.

[Robert Linford]

One or two surprises - at least for me - in the 1851 census.

1. Between Nos 135 and 136 were Stephenson's Buildings.
2. There were Stephensons at 138.
3. The Old Boy employed a governess.
4. He had another Stephenson working for him (Rachel, 23) as a servant.

No sign of Richard Jr. He'll have to be found, because if he was staying with relatives, rather than at boarding school, that might help us with the blood relations.

Robert

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/STEPHENSON2051201.gif

[Robert Linford]

Here is Robert Ranby Stephenson and family in 1851 :

Hull Bridge

John Stephenson, 49, merchant, seed and bone crusher, born Beverley
Elizabeth, wife, 35 born Donington, Lincs
Children
John, 14, born Beverley
Robert Ranby, 12, born Hull Bridge
William, 10, born ditto
James, 9, born ditto
Richard, 7, born ditto
Susan, 6, born ditto
Thomas, 2, born ditto
Elizabeth, 4 months, born ditto
Plus, a governess and three servants.

Robert

[Robert Linford]

I suspect that Elizabeth's maiden name may have been "Ranby" - it had a strong presence in Lincolnshire, and there were Ranbies at Donington in 51 (though not, apparently, her parents).

Robert

[Robert Linford]

Continuing with the Lincolnshire connection, here are some images from the Post Office Directory of Lincolnshire 1849(?) which suggest a Dawber-Hull-Stephenson link.

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

In listening to Andy Aliffe's speech from 2002 last Saturday,the Dawber clan had one person [ I believe Joseph ] who was a lawyer.

I'll need to re-listen to that tape and get the facts straight as to the name....but I'm certain that there was a lawyer in the family [ D'onston's uncle...].

Has Johnny checked into the schools in Hull...maybe to see if we can find out where Sudden Death sharpened his pencils?

Nice finds as usual,Sor Linford.... ;)

[Robert Linford]

How, I don't know whether John has checked that, or even whether records would still be extant.

I seem to remember there was a school at the end of Donston's road.

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

I sent Andy an e-mail and asked him the following:

"1. Where did RDS get his medical degree that you mentioned at a 2002 Cloak and Dagger speech [ which I have listened to many times now...] ?

2. Did your research into the early period of RDS....around the time of the late 1868 dismissal from Customs House, produce any evidence that RDS had venereal disease? Mr. Harris said that RDS DID have venereal disease,but I have always been skeptical of this claim...as well as some others.

3. I know that you were merely creating a scenario in the terrific article you wrote for the attendees at the Brighton Convention...However,do YOU know if Blavatsky and RDS ever DID know each other personally prior to the 1888 death by Edmund Gurney?

Its been a couple of days since I sent the e-mail to him. Perhaps he is busy.

The answer to the school from whence he attained this degree doesn't prove much as to his possible culpability of being JTR,one way or the other ...but only makes us ask two questions here:

1. If he had one....why didn't he use it,rather settling for and doing exceptionally well at Customs House??? Andy inferred in his speech that RDS was a restless sort. This may be true.

But if he did have one,wouldn't the trouble of obtaining a degree seem senseless,if he was EXCEPTIONAL as pointed out by Andy,at Customs House?

2. If he didn't have one,then that would explain his sinecure at Customs House and eliminate one of the myths on that ever growing list...

I've got 7 so far...

1. Unless Andy proves otherwise,he didn't have a degree. Experience,yes...smarts,yes...skills,yes....degree ,no. Not enough time.

2. Murder of Anne Deary.... [see Nina's discovery of Ann Stephenson's death certificate at Casebook.] All aspects appear to be in order for that woman to have been the former Mrs. Stephenson.

3. Venereal disease.....Melvin says yes...Andy didn't mention it. Neither did the Customs House 1867 year end report indicate v.d.....unless Andy answers otherwise....no v.d.

4. Bolthole....Unproven. Not completely one way or the other....but not proven.

5. Goes to California to avenge a cousin. C'mon.

6. Knew Blavatsky that intimately to be considered friendly enough to have killed at The Behemoth's request,regarding the theory that RDS murdered Gurney in Brighton. Blavatsky may not have even known him. RDS certainly knew OF Madame Blats.....

7. My favorite.....RDS is arrested during the Autumn of Terror. Why ?Because Stead says so. Stead,the great humanitarian,then uses someone he felt was JTR to write on his paper.

8. Extra goodie....That RDS knew Mary Kelly before the Nichols murder in order to initiate a pattern that represents positive vibes [ 99.9 percent of the time...].

[Robert Linford]

Well How, we'll have to see what Andy says. I don't see him having the self-discipline to get a degree, but that's a subjective opinion.

PS When you said school, I thought you meant children's school. :)

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

Yes sir...any schooling would be good to hunt down. I mentioned the e-mail to Andy as an aside. His family physician would be a nice thing to discover too. I did mean early school in my post....

Maybe we ought to take Derek Acurah to Hull and let him sniff out that info. :rolleyes:

I agree about the inability to get a degree,primarily due to the time frame he is said to have acquired one. From what I gather,that amount of time and his AGE at that time don't seem likely.

He would have had to get the degree within less than two years. In 1861,he was living a home according to the census. In 1863,he was at Customs House.

Plus,to add further suspicion to this degree...he immediately goes to work at Customs House for almost 5 years !

[Robert Linford]

Well, it was alleged at the time that an agent could get you almost any degree from Germany. So a) did he have a degree? and b) was it worth the paper it was written on?

I think on the RDS degree we're right to exercise a degree of cynicism.

Robert

[Peter Birchwood]

I heard somewhere that there was a theory that Stephenson killed or was responsible for the death of, Edmund Gurney and I'd be grateful if I could be reminded of the details of that. On the face of it, Trevor Hall seems to have put the case for Gurney as a suicide almost beyond doubt giving as the reason his discovery that Smith and Blackburn had been pulling the wool over his eyes in connection with the Brighton "Second Sight" experiments. As it was something that Gurney had put his life into, after failing at several other careers and being somewhat depressive, it might have been too much for him.

[How Brown]

Dear Mr. Birchwood:

Yes sir, there was something written about Gurney possibly being murdered by Stephenson. It was written up for the Brighton Convention by Andy Aliffe and I have a copy of that article.

Andy makes it clear that it his article,which is more informative in regard to the coterie of people in Edmund Gurney's life, that his comments are just a " fanciful idea and purely the stuff of fiction...".

Andy also stated that Stephenson had a medical degree [ not just guesswork on my part...I heard him say that.] and that Stephenson,in his article, killed Gurney at the behest of Blavatsky.........[ I am still waiting for a reply to my request to Andy as to the institution that RDS attended to acheive this degree.]......He mentioned the possible "link" of RDS and Madame Blavatsky being due to their mutual service to Garibaldi years before

This presents a problem,however. Stephenson served Garibaldi 7 years before Madame Soldier cum Theosophist Blavatsky served Garibaldi. She served in 1867. RDS in 1860. Therefore,there is no real reason to believe that they knew each other from that mutual service.

Furthermore, the fact that RDS tells Cremers that he and Mabel Collins hooked up after Collins and RDS began their correspondence when RDS was in London Hospital in July of 1889 is not good news for those who believe that RDS and Blavatsky were somehow friendly.

Its virtually impossible for RDS to have NOT known of Collins prior to this 1889 exchange of letters, if RDS knew Blavatsky before 1888. To know Blavatsky and to be as friendly as one would have to be to kill at a request, and NOT know Collins and that Mabel was Madame Blavatsky's right arm until their acrimonious split is preposterous. These two were like bread and butter...cheese and crackers....milk and honey.

There is another problem with the RDS-in-Brighton scenario as well,which could link RDS and Blavatsky together... not necessarily as some long time friendly relations being rekindled..but just coincidentally.

If Brighton was a resort for relaxation,then what is RDS doing sucking up the suds and living at the Cricketers Inn ? What was Stephenson doing there?


Thanks for your input,Mr. B ... Much appreciated !!!

[Robert Linford]

This isn't important, but I thought I'd mention it as an odd little coincidence : on the day before Annie Chapman's murder the "Times" reviewed a performance of Haggard's "She" at the Gaiety Theatre. Cast in the role of one of the savages, is an Edmund Gurney!

Robert

[Robert Linford]

Do we have this newspaper report?


Robert

[How Brown]

Bob:

First time I've seen it old man.

Maybe whenever possible, you could put it up on Casebook in the RDS section.

Thanks,Bob.

[Robert Linford]

OK, How, I'll get in touch with Brighton and see if they'll send me the item.

Robert

[Robert Linford]

Here we are, then :

SAD DEATH AT BRIGHTON. – On Monday afternoon, Mr A. Freeman Gell, the Deputy Borough Coroner, held an inquest at the Brighton Town Hall, on the body of Edmund Gurney, aged 42, a gentleman of independent means, who was found dead in bed at the Royal Albion Hotel, Old Steine, Brighton, on Saturday afternoon. It appeared that the deceased arrived at the Hotel on Friday evening last. He dined there, and was apparently in good health. He was seen about ten o’clock that evening by the waiter, who gave him a glass of water, which he drank. The following day he did not appear downstairs, and a maid knocked at the door of his bedroom. She however obtained no answer. Later on she again knocked, and obtaining no answer she informed the manageress. The door of the room was found to be locked, and that lady ordered it to be broken open. The deceased was found in bed lying on his left side, dead. He had a small sponge bag over the lower portion of his face, and near the bed was a bottle containing a clear fluid, supposed to be chloroform. Mr Myers, M.D., of London, observed that he had been an intimate friend of the deceased for many years. The latter suffered from acute neuralgic pains, and was in the habit of taking anaesthetics to alleviate his sufferings. They had frequently talked together of the several methods whereby his pain could be relieved. The deceased had been through a medical education, and evidently knew the way to use the anaesthetics. He was of opinion that death was caused by accident. Mr C. Burland, a surgeon, of Old Steine, said that he had, in conjunction with Dr Blaker, examined the body, and made a post mortem examination. There was nothing to indicate clearly the cause of death, but his opinion was that the deceased, being in the habit of inhaling drugs, &c., to relieve his sufferings, took an overdose, which had caused his death. The jury, after a long consideration, returned a verdict of "Accidental Death."


Robert

[How Brown]

Good to see you back, Robert ! ;)

A couple of things regarding the reprint of Gurney's demise...

1. The only way that someone could have murdered Gurney [ considering that the doctor doesn't mention any marks on his torso or signs of struggle or dishevelment regarding the clothing ] would be by assisted suicide.

2. The "long consideration" mentioned at bottom of this article to me,at least,indicates a thorough analysis of the bizarre suicide by the doctor,perhaps encouraged by the hoteliers.

In addition, no hotel,either now or then,wants negative publicity cast or aspersions indicating that travelers,guests,or individuals have anything to fear from their establishment. I would wager that the Albion took extreme interest in the management of the suicide investigation,more so than an atypical suicide discovered in a home.

Any thoughts?

[Robert Linford]

Hi How

There are one or two slightly odd things. He was lying on his left side, yet the bag was over his face. And "supposed to be chloroform" - didn't they know???

Yet, given that there is no mention of a missing key, so that Gurney presumably locked the door himself, I'd agree : the only way RDS might have killed him, as far as I can see, is (as you say) assisted suicide, or maybe a poisoned drink - something slow-acting and hard to detect?

Robert

[How Brown]

Bob:

My personal reluctance [ not that this means I'm "right"..] to poison would be that there was no mention of any substance on his person or in the room...and despite the possibility of a poison being used, I can't see how the body would not have reacted to the ingestion of a poison,as poisoning creates real physical and animated agony.

In addition,if a poison was given to Gurney by someone else and one that was slow acting,then the question is raised,why use a slow acting poison...one which Gurney would have been aware of before completely incapacitating him...and enabling him to reach out for medical assistance.

Sometimes people just call it quits and die lonely deaths. His death was a very lonely one and sad that he left family behind to pick up the pieces.

I forgot to thank you for placing the post Bob...and its good to see you overcame your computer problems. Don't ask me about mine of late..what a headache.

[Robert Linford]

Hi How

Don't tell me you've got computer problems too. Let's hope they're cleared soon.

Robert

[How Brown]

Bob:

Probably not as serious as you had,but nonetheless time consuming and very aggravating problems.

I lost [ yeah...you guessed it...] all my email that I had saved over the last 6 months. I have the emails but cannot read the encrypted mail. So,I now save them in a different manner.

Just like a lot of things in life, computers can be more trouble than they're worth sometimes.

[Robert Linford]

I tried to post this on the relevant thread, but it's closed : a big thank you to Spiro for transcribing Andy's article, and for Andy for his permission.

PS Spiro, I got online again Friday and I answered your email.

Robert

[How Brown]

Bob:

I will "open" that thread at once.

If anyone else has something to say, please do.

[Robert Linford]

Just thought I'd post this from the 1841 census.

Church St (no number apparently), Sculcoates

Robert Dawber, 25, bone and seed crusher
Eleanor, 30, wife
Children Elizabeth, 5
William, 3
Robert, 1

Church St is a familiar street to Donston fans.

There was another Dawber (independent means) apparently in the same house (see image).


In 51 the family were in Charles St!

Robert

[Chris G.]

Here we are, then :

SAD DEATH AT BRIGHTON. – On Monday afternoon, Mr A. Freeman Gell, the Deputy Borough Coroner, held an inquest at the Brighton Town Hall, on the body of Edmund Gurney, aged 42, a gentleman of independent means, who was found dead in bed at the Royal Albion Hotel, Old Steine, Brighton, on Saturday afternoon. It appeared that the deceased arrived at the Hotel on Friday evening last. He dined there, and was apparently in good health. He was seen about ten o’clock that evening by the waiter, who gave him a glass of water, which he drank. The following day he did not appear downstairs, and a maid knocked at the door of his bedroom. She however obtained no answer. Later on she again knocked, and obtaining no answer she informed the manageress. The door of the room was found to be locked, and that lady ordered it to be broken open. The deceased was found in bed lying on his left side, dead. He had a small sponge bag over the lower portion of his face, and near the bed was a bottle containing a clear fluid, supposed to be chloroform. Mr Myers, M.D., of London, observed that he had been an intimate friend of the deceased for many years. The latter suffered from acute neuralgic pains, and was in the habit of taking anaesthetics to alleviate his sufferings. They had frequently talked together of the several methods whereby his pain could be relieved. The deceased had been through a medical education, and evidently knew the way to use the anaesthetics. He was of opinion that death was caused by accident. Mr C. Burland, a surgeon, of Old Steine, said that he had, in conjunction with Dr Blaker, examined the body, and made a post mortem examination. There was nothing to indicate clearly the cause of death, but his opinion was that the deceased, being in the habit of inhaling drugs, &c., to relieve his sufferings, took an overdose, which had caused his death. The jury, after a long consideration, returned a verdict of "Accidental Death."


Robert

Hi Howard and Robert

Unless there is some missing information that we are not being told, this sounds to me like a case of accidental death or else suicide and not a case of homicide.

Chris

[How Brown]

Dear C.G.

I lean towards a possible suicide slightly over an accident,considering he appears to have been used to that sort of practice to facilitate sleep.

I understand that there was no suicide note mentioned ( obviously) which may mitigate against a suicide. In any event,there's not one bit of evidence to suggest a second party involved as you mentioned.

[Nemo]

As an aside, here's a picture of the actor Edmund Gurney appearing in "She" at the Gaeity theatre Sept 1888

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/5a.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/w.jpg

[Mike Covell]

That Edmund Gurney was an impressive chap. Not only did he let Stephenson theorists believe he was murdered by old "Sudden Death" he came back from the grave to star in "SHE"

Dead or Alive2 :high5:

[How Brown]

Nemo:

Mike brings up a point here...

The date given is in September of '88. Can I ask whether your article was made in 1887,since Gurney had been dead for at least 9 weeks before Sept. of 1888?

In any event,thanks for the photo.

Are any of those other names familiar to you ?

[Mike Covell]

How, Nemo has just sent me photo's of the newspaper and the date is quite clear, Sept 15th 1888.

[Nemo]

It's a different person I think - not a common name, coincidental I think

Robert mentions him in a post above from a review in the Times paper

I'll post the review here in a sec

[Nemo]

Here you go...

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/a.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/b.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/c.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/d.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/e.jpg

[Nemo]

Nice pics of the production...

As ever, if Mike/Howard or anybody would ,like a higher res pic, just PM me no problem.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/1aa.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/4a.jpg

[Mike Covell]

Edmund Gurney as Chief Ugogo-to-Brighton.:tape:

[Nemo]

Rider-Haggard's "She" must have been discussed publicly during the last few months of 1888, as was "Jekyll & Hyde"

Corpse candles and uterus recipes had been mentioned in the press during October also

RDS seems to publish works that are in response to these articles/events whereas at one time I thought he instigated discussion regarding the occult connections with the WM

[How Brown]

Chief Ugogo Nemo:

Heap big juju in those photos. Thanks a lot.

Is that Gurney a different Edmund Gurney? If so, its amazing how many situations like this pop up in Ripperology....first the two Carrie Browns...then the photo of Abberline...and then what SPE provided on the letter regarding Best...its just one mystery or loose end after the other in our field.