The Wood & The Trees

[A.P. Wolf]

I missed this in the original Sun reports on Thomas Cutbush, but it makes sense to me:

'which enables a man to defy detection by mixing among those who are seeking for him.'

In other words, a cop, or a very close relation of one.

[How Brown]

Dear A.P.

Please amplify what you mean for the people..in other words, how is that phrase applicable to Thomas Cutbush since it appears you are positing the idea that TC actually did mix among police officers.

Thank you and thanks for starting the thread.:)

[A.P. Wolf]

No worries, How.
The implication of the Sun articles, no matter how one does decide to read 'em, is that the killer was able to evade capture simply because of his connections to the forces of law that were attempting to catch him... and that when he was eventually brought to court for that which he did, he would not have done it, because he had in fact done something else, which he didn't really do, as someone else called Colicitt had done that, so?
Disinformation, misinformation... Macnaghten claims that Thomas' wherabouts cannot be vouched for in the Autumn of 1888, but the Sun says that they have detailed records of his employment in Whitechapel throughout the Autumn of 1888.
Who you gonna call?
Ghostbusters?

[Simon Wood]

Hi AP,

It's worth noting that Macnaghten also said that Ostrog's "whereabouts at the time of the murders could never be ascertained/satisfactorily accounted for", yet we know he was in a Parisian jail throughout the WM, and in 1894, six years after the event, Macnaghten should have known, too.

Disingenuousness is part and parcel of dis/misinformation.

Regards,

Simon

[A.P. Wolf]

Indeed Simon, and one must not forget that one of Macnaghten's other more suitable suspects for the crimes of Jack the Ripper was actually floating about in the Thames without a life vest while still two or three women were yet to be murdered.
That's plainly indecent.
Let's just blame the Jews, eh? It's easier than the plain truth.

[How Brown]

Dear A.P.

Thanks very much for expanding on the matter since there may be new members who would not have known what you were referring to.

Let me just add this on,dear A.P. & Simon...the more that time goes by and the more often that I think of Ostrog's name being on that list....and if Ostrog wasn't in London before the Autumn of Terror....then the thought that the Macnaghten Memoranda is merely an unsupervised & non-collaborative exercise in memory on Macnaghten's part looks a little more likely....not that it was...but I think you two gents understand what I mean in this one regard about that document.

How the heck did he get on that list ? No priors for abusive physical behavior towards women..no mention of knife assaults...etc,etc...and etc.

I don't really think at this time...and in our field opinions, like suspect statuses, change on occasion....that Macnaghten's document was an attempt to provide anyone in the department disinformation and certainly not anyone from outside the department since it was an internal memo.....but rather something detached from the Sun articles....and yet I understand how it could appear linked to other comrades in the field...

Again thanks A.P.

Anyone else ( including Simon & A.P. ) with additional comments to make on the thread ? Please contribute !

[A.P. Wolf]

Come on, How, Ostrog stole a cricket trophy, that aint cricket in 'ol blighty... he must have been Jack the Kipper

[How Brown]

Thats what I mean,A.P...the guy is less likely to get his hands dirty with women than say..ahem, I am. Yet he makes the win/place/and show in MM's list.

I agree with a sentiment expressed to me by mr. Begg once that for whatever reason Ostrog is on that list, we ought to find out why. Not that he thinks Ostrog should be on the list....but just why. Its really baffling.

It seems academic now...since I believe it was Mr. Jon Ogan who took Ostrog out of the picture ( correct me if I am wrong )....in that Ostrog is now just a name that appears on the list ....but the baffling thing will always be why if he was in France and in jail already. Why pull his name out of a hat...and whose hat at that !

Oy.

[A.P. Wolf]

Simply because Ostrog sounds Jewish.... Macnaghten had the indecent sense of fair play of all LVP civil servants, so he produced two Jews, and a gay out of his hat.
When the other top ranking officers peered into their own hats, what did they see?
Gays and Jews, that's what.

[How Brown]

Dear A.P.

If Macnaghten was gonna pull a Rabitzky or Rabinowitz outta his hat, why not one with Cohen-like priors ? For him to pick anyone out of the hat simply because they were Jewish, it seems that Ostrog was chosen ( Thats a Jewish joke...get it? ) primarily because of his fairly well known criminal career ( to the police cadre ) over most others of the Hebrew persuasion...as his career stretched back a few decades.
He had spent some time in Surrey Pauper Lunatic Asylum beginning in Sept. 1887...and was released on March 10th, 1888. From this point on, its not known whether he was even in London ( The police, if my memory serves me here, were told to be on the lookout for him in October of 1888...but why, we don't know). If there was a reason for him being considered for inclusion to the Macnaghten Memoranda...it may be due to this bulletin that was issued...and MM was provided the name.

Its one of those many mysteries within the Mystery,A.P.

[Simon Wood]

Hi AP and Howard,

The February 1894 Macnaghten Memorandum was written in refutation of a series of articles in the Sun newspaper identifying Jack the Ripper as a Broadmoor inmate. In all probability it was written as a briefing note for Home Secretary Henry Asquith in case questions were raised in parliament, but in the event this didn't happen.

The reason questions might have been raised in parliament had nothing to do with the Broadmoor patient being Thomas Cutbush, nephew of Superintendent Charles Cutbush, for the person in the Sun articles was unnamed. Indeed, it was Macnaghten who first named him and his relationship to a high ranking Scotland Yard officer in his memorandum.

The most pressing and potentially most politically embarrassing aspect of the Sun story was how a newspaper may have learned the identity and whereabouts of Jack the Ripper when Scotland Yard had so signally failed in this regard. It was a slap in the face for Anderson and the CID. Something had to be done, and the task fell to Macnaghten.

Even had he wanted to, Macnaghten couldn't haven't got away with writing in his memorandum "Nobody knew the identity of JtR, but to suggest it was young Tommy Cutbush is just plain ridiculous." It wouldn't have buttered Whitehall's parsnips. Nor would it have painted Scotland Yard in a flattering light.

Cutbush's guilt or innocence as the Ripper was neither here nor there. The cops were between a rock and a hard place, unable to either confirm or deny Cutbush was the Ripper without compromising themselves. To maintain Scotland Yard's reputation the Sun story had to be discredited. Macnaghten had to point the finger at someone else, but someone against whom there was no definite proof. For had the police stated definitively that "the Sun story is nonsense: so-and-so was the real Jack the Ripper" they risked someone calling their bluff, demanding to see the evidence and asking why his identity had been kept a secret. Therefore Jack the Ripper had to be someone the police only 'suspected', and preferably for the most tenuous of reasons.

So what better to dazzle and confuse than three suspects, "any one of whom would have been more likely than Cutbush to have committed this series of murders"? "More likely?" Talk about definite proof. Macnaghten, who had only a few days to cobble together his three versions of the memorandum, chose Montague Druitt who had been dead for just over five years, Michael Ostrog who if anybody bothered to investigate him would have soon found he had an alibi for late 1888, and the hapless Kosminski who got banged up in Colney Hatch. And although Macnaghten had written, "There were many circs connected with this man which made him a strong 'suspect' [note the inverted commas]", who was going to risk public money on the slim chance of bringing a maniacally masturbating Jack the Ripper to justice? Druitt, Kosminski and Ostrog were three safe bets.

Things got steadily worse in Macnaghten's definite proof department. Regarding Druitt's culpability, he actually absolved the police of any official suspicion in the matter. He wrote [Aberconway version], "From private information I have little doubt but that his own family suspected this man of being the Whitechapel murderer; it was alleged that he was sexually insane," and [final version] "He was sexually insane and from private inf I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer."

Strong stuff. You can almost see the judge reaching for his black cap.

Michael Ostrog is the key to the Macnaghten Memorandum, simply because he was the only one of the three who definitely could not have been JtR. He was in custody in a Parisian jail from 26th July to 14th November 1888, on which date the French authorities sentenced him to two years in prison, but that didn't stop his being thrown into the suspect pool six years after the event. Admittedly the cops were looking for him in the autumn of 1888, but not as a Ripper suspect. He had simply failed to report himself whilst under police supervision.

It has been argued that Macnaghten didn't learn about Ostrog's incarceration in France until the French authorities confirmed the fact a few months after he wrote his memorandum, but I find this too cosy and convenient an excuse to let Macnaghten off the hook. He had been taking a close interest in Ostrog as far back as 1891 when he was remanded at Bow Street and afterwards sent to Banstead Lunatic Asylum.

The Macnaghten Memorandum was a diversionary tactic to steer minds away from the truth behind the WM, whatever that elusive truth may have been. And it worked—internally and externally. Nothing politically untoward came of the Sun story, and by 1898 the memorandum had been leaked/shown to Major Griffiths for use [without names] in his book Mysteries of Police and Crime.

For the next twelve years it was a neck-and-neck race in the press between the "maniac safely caged in an asylum" and the "doctor drowned in the Thames", plus a fleeting mention in 1903 of Abberline's 1000-1 outsider George Chapman. It wouldn't be until 1910 that Anderson announced in Blackwoods that the Ripper was a low class Jew, and later the same year in the book TLSOMOL a low class Polish Jew.

By 1910 Anderson could afford to be 'candid' and 'in the know' whilst protecting the traditions of his old department. Nobody really cared. Who was going to resurrect a twenty-two-year-old cold case? What was the point? Druitt was dead, and Ostrog, last seen alive in 1904 at the age of 71, had a cast-iron alibi. Only Aaron Kosminski was still alive, [quietly shaking hands with Mrs Palmer the five-fingered widow in Colney Hatch asylum where he would die in 1919], but you can't try just one out of three suspects unless you've got bullet-proof evidence.

Besides, the world was soon to become far more interested in Anderson's revelation that he had authored the 'Parnellism and Crime' articles.

It's interesting to note that in 1892 Anderson's suspect had been the fairly generic "maniac revelling in blood". It was only after the appearance in 1894 of the Macnaghten Memorandum that his suspect became "a maniac committed to an asylum" and stayed that way right up until 1910.

So if Anderson was drawing upon Macnaghten, the first to mention the Polish Jew suspect Kosminski, from whom had Macnaghten got his information? And if Littlechild was correct in saying that Anderson "only thought he knew" then it follows that Macnaghten only thought he knew. But Littlechild also only thought he knew, for his own Ripper suspect has lately proved to be a dead duck.

The Macnaghten Memorandum cannot be trusted as evidence for or against any of the people it either absolves or names as suspects. Further, I believe that all police utterances as to the identity of the Ripper should be struck from the record. They ain't worth the paper they're written on.

Regards,

Simon

[How Brown]

Thats a hard act to follow Simon. Thanks very much for that.

In SPE/Nick Connell's second edition of "The Man Who Hunted Jack The Ripper"...there's information in this excellent book regarding one anonymous, police based, response to Inspector Race's revelations to the Sun printed in the Morning Leader on February 16th,1894 which seems almost blase' or dismissive about the Sun series. I mention this for the benefit of those on the boards who may think that no one from the police department responded to Race's actions. They did. Not in a spectacular series of articles...but one of them commented on the series nevertheless.

Simon, in a way.... and of course I'm just as happy as the next person in that we have had the MM for a full half century now...in a way its as if the MM has been this large treadmill and we're all like those insufferable little hamsters...simply running in place to nowhere using the MM as some sort of tool. Ostrog is by far the worst of the three "more likely" suspects on that list...and yet he's the only one with a criminal record we know of other than Kosminski walking a dog.
Truly remarkable if we sit back and absorb that thought. Yet...we'll keep plugging away at the Case for as long as it takes.

Thanks again for the effort and content,old bean.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Howard,

Thanks. You're most welcome. I wish I could be more definitive, but there ya go.

I like your treadmill/hamsters analogy, for we really are just spinning our wheels, going around in pointless circular arguments. I recently saw some of Mei Trow's JtR Revealed and, without going into its strengths or weaknesses, it struck me that these days even the most self-respecting JtR TV documentary or book has become little more than an Anthology of Cliches, both visual and narrative. The programme could have been spliced together from every other JtR documentary that's gone before.

I want the treadmill to come off its mountings. Then we'll get somewhere.

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi all,

Cutbush was quite beserk, wasn't he.

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Unstable and a potential danger right to the end.

Regards,

Kerim Bey

[Roy Corduroy]

Apparently so, Simon.

And "hard facts about the life of Thomas Cutbush are rare things to find" (Wolf Ch 11)

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

?????????????

Regards,

Kerim Bey

[Roy Corduroy]

?????????????

There is a paucity of data on young Tom. What is his date and place of birth? His school? Did he ever date a girl?

A portfolio, Monsieur Bey :spy:

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Have this to be going on with. Lambeth is just across the River Thames in South London.

6951

The fact that he had just turned 23 during the WM kinda rules him out as Jack.

Regards,

Kerim

[Roy Corduroy]

Don't say that. Some of my favorite suspects are young.

Okay, born Sep 65 Lambeth. Not much of a portfolio, is it, Monsieur Bey :spy:

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Dear Pushy,

It's a dossier, not a portfolio.

THC's father died when he was young. THC lived at 14 Albert Street, Kennington [next door to Lambeth] with his mother and aunt.

School, inamoratas and inside leg measurement unknown.

It's not much of a dossier either.

Regards,

Kerim

[Roy Corduroy]

It's a dossier, not a portfolio.

My bad

School... ...unknown.
We could figure it out.

Thank you for your help, Monsieur Bey :spy:

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

The dossier is fattening nicely. Try this out.

Casebook and AP's book about Cutbush both tell us that THC was born in Lambeth, his father died when he was young and he was brought up by his mother and aunt at 14 Albert Street, Kennington, London.

According to the 1881 census, living at 14 Albert Street, Newington, Surrey [at the time Newington was bounded by Lambeth and Kennington, so no conflict there] were John K. Hayne, 71; his wife, Anne, 75; daughter, E, 37; daughter, Kate, 33; two lodgers; and last but by no means least—son, Thomas Cutbush, 15.

So now we know how THC came by the name Hayne. But who supplied the name Cutbush?

The 1881 census also tells us that Chief Inspector Charles Cutbush, 36, was living at 36 St Paul's Road, Newington, Surrey. With him at this address were his wife, Ann, 36; four daughters—Amelia, 13; Ellen, 10; Winifred, 5, and Caroline, 3; a son, Charles, 7 months; Amelia Cutbush, 66, widowed "Mother" receiving an annuity, and Winifred Warfell, 36, a "Lady Help (D&S)".

My first guess is that Amelia was THC's mother, who would have been 51 at the time of his birth, and her widowhood makes sense in the light of the story about THC's father having died. A possible candidate is Henry Cutbush, 76, who died in Lambeth, December 1871, when THC was 5. But it does mean that he would have fathered THC at the age of 70. Also, if Amelia and Henry Cutbush were the parents why would THC get the middle name Hayne?

Going out on a limb, I would hazard a guess that a widowed Amelia Cutbush had a late in life affair with John K. Hayne [they would both have been in their 50s], THC was born and his nephew/uncle relationship with Charles was a polite family fiction.

I wonder if Macnaghten knew any of this.

Regards,

Kerim Bey

[Roy Corduroy]

6951

His birth, from a list.

Was his birth registered in a parish?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Only the actual birth certificate would give the parish detail.

Thomas Taylor Cutbush [THC's father] was a bit of a cad and a bounder. He deserted his wife Kate and young child in November 1866 and on 22nd January 1867 arrived in Wellington, New Zealand, where on 10th December 1867 at St Johns Presbyterian Church he bigamously married Agnes Ingles Stoddart, spinster, age [F]='full, over 21'. Agnes lied about her age. She died on 17th July 1870 aged "20 years and 6 months" [Wellington Independent, 19th July 1870].

TTC wasn't one to let the grass grow under his feet. Two months later, on 24th September 1870, he married at the Office of the Registrar, Wellington, Miss Francis Augusta Evelyn Watson of that city [Wellington Independent, 10th October 1870]. They lived in a freehold property on Tasman Street, Wellington.

On 27th April 1871 TTC appeared before magistrates. J. Rigg, the Town Board Clerk, was claiming £1.10s in unpaid rates. TTC paid up.

On 5th May 1871 TTC was objected to on a list of people "not being entitled to have their names retained on the list of voters for the city of Wellington".

On 3rd January 1872 Francis Augusta Cutbush gave birth to a daughter.

On 7th May 1872 TTC's name was again objected to on the voters list because he had "left the colony". He travelled to Melbourne, Australia, where he lived on Collins Street.

That's all I can find on TTC for the moment, except to say that in the 1881 census his wife Kate Cutbush [nee Hayne] listed herself as a widow, probably in preference to being described as deserted—

14 Albert Street, Newington, Surrey. John K. Hayne, 71; his wife, Anne, 75; daughter, Ellen, 37; daughter, Kate, 33 [widow]; two lodgers; and last but by no means least—son, Thomas Cutbush, 15.

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Only the actual birth certificate would give the parish detail.

I thought births were registered at a parish church.

In any case, father, Thomas Taylor Cutbush, who left, mother Kate (maiden name Hayne)

The household, along with Kate consisted of John and Anne Hayne, who were Tom's grandparents. And Ellen Hayne, the aunt "Miss Haines" who gave the interview with Lloyds Weekly News 19 Apr 1891. (courtesy Chris Scott on Casebook)

Is that correct?

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Yes, births are recorded in parish registers, but you'd need the certificate to discover which parish.

The family details you have sound right to me. The interview with Miss Haines is amazingly detailed.

More TTC.

In Australia he was twice declared insolvent.

The Argus [AUS] 24th May 1872—

6953

The Argus [AUS] 3rd April 1880—

6954

Sandridge was a district of Melbourne.

According to this last report either his wife or daughter had died.

And that's where the trail appears to end.

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Thanks Simon,

In the 1871 census, Aunt Ellen is not in the household, and a small anomoly, Kate is 26.

Was Thomas Hayne Cutbush born in Lambeth or Newington, or is that the same place?

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Ages on censuses are notoriously unreliable. Just look at Fred and Emma Abberline.

Lambeth, Kennington and Newington abutted each other. Without THC's birth certificate [which I believe Robert Linford has] it's hard to be accurate. But I have found two references to Lambeth [which was L Division, in which THC was arrested].

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Thanks again.

On this 1868 map if you scroll down the left hand side to just below St George's Circus.

Is this the Albert Street of residence in the census?

(click here) (http://london1868.com/weller55b.htm)

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Hard to say. This entry from the 1882 Kelly Street Directory puts Albert Street further south. Penton Place, still there today, was off Newington Butts. I can't find an Albert Street in the same present day vicinity, but I can find an Alberta Street, which could be close enough for jazz. Check it out in the current London A-Z. See what you think.

6956

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Yes. Here is the next pane of the map southward. Albert Str is top left off Penton Place.

http://london1868.com/weller67b.htm

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Nice job. I think that settles it.

Your next mission is to find Uncle Charles's house at 36 St Paul's Road, Newington, Surrey.

Regards,

Simon

[A.P. Wolf]

I'd just like to say that some new information is likely to emerge in the very near future concerning the complicated Cutbush clan, of a content and nature that may cause some radical rethinking.

[Simon Wood]

Hi AP,

Good news. They sound a tricky bunch.

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you, AP let us know.

Uncle Charles's house at 36 St Paul's Road, Newington, Surrey.

Same map and directly below Albert Street

Across New St, Doddington Grove, and there it is.

Rollin Hand :rolleyes:

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

That'll teach me to look closer.

Regards,

Willy Armitage

[Roy Corduroy]

(Click here for map) (http://london1868.com/weller67b.htm)

Top Left of Map

Albert Str. off Penton Place home of Thomas Cutbush
Directly below across New St and Doddington Grove is -
St Paul's Road home of Supt. Charles Cutbush
Directly below across Chapter Ter. is -
Fleming Road home of Insp. Race in 1891.

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Super job, Rollin. You obviously need something more challenging.

Okay, so where was Inspector Race's earlier address in proximity to the locations you've identified?

Here's a clue—

1881 Census—68 Hargwyne Street, Lambeth, Surrey.

Regards,

Willie Armitage

[Roy Corduroy]

Hargwyne St is still there. A mile S/SW of Kennington.

Zat's 2 eazy, monsieur Bey :spy:

[Simon Wood]

Okay Kronsteen,

In 1881 another well known police officer was living at 1 Grove Cottages, Lambeth. Who was he and was his house anywhere near those of Cutbush and Race?

And this time Morzeny is standing by with his famous boot.

Regards,

Kerim Bey

[Robert Linford]

Why, that was Donald S Swanson.

TTC died 1886, where I know not but I suspect in Fiji.

[Simon Wood]

Well done, Robert,

Your prize is The Complete Barbie C5 Collection.

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Robert,

So TTC was only 42 when he died. That's young.

What makes you suspect he died on Fiji?

Regards,

Simon

[Robert Linford]

Hi Simon

Not sure I can remember now! He didn't die in Australia or England, anyway.

I think at the last count it was 4 children he fathered from this third marriage which was also his second bigamous one - three daughters and a son. The son, Thomas Watson Cutbush, has his name at the Menin Gate.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Robert,

A Thomas Watson Cutbush was with the Fiji Platoon of Kings Royal Rifles. So it certainly sounds like he may have been the son of Francis Augusta Evelyn Watson, TTC wife No. 3.

AP thinks TTC left Fiji for South Africa.

If you're in digging mode, Fiji had five newspapers in the 1880s—

Fiji Times—twice weekly
Observer—weekly
Royal Gazette—occasionally
Na Mata—occasionally
Polynesian Gazette—weekly

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Robert,

Thank you for the tip.

Entry on the Menin Gate—

CUTBUSH, Rifleman, THOMAS WATSON, R/10196. 4th Bn. King's Royal Rifle Corps. 10th May 1915. Age 38. Son of Mrs. Frances Augusta Evelyn Swann (formerly Cutbush), of Suva, Fiji Islands.

In late October 1901 TWC was arrested on Fiji and returned aboard the SS Taviuni to Auckland, New Zealand, to face charges of fraudulent bankruptcy. The case at the Supreme Court took up the whole of Saturday 30th November, and on Monday, 2nd December he was acquitted and discharged.

It appears that TWC remained in Auckland, making his living as a fruit trader. On 23rd January 1904 it was announced that a bankruptcy hearing was to be held on 8th February. TWC was amongst those named to appear.

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you Robert.

1 Grove Cottages, Lambeth

(click here for map) (http://archivemaps.com/mapco/stanford/stan54.htm)

Scroll to bottom. Between Vauxhall Station and Park. The Grove, Bonnington Square vicinity.

A mile west of the others.

Roy :party:

[Simon Wood]

Nice work Kronsteen,

At this rate the Lektor will soon be ours.

Regards,

Ernst Stavro Blofeld

[Robert Linford]

Hi Simon

Thanks for the info on TWC's bankruptcy problems. It sounds as though he may have been a chip off the old block, but on the other hand, I'm sure TTC wouldn't have let his name get within a million miles of the Menin Gate.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Robert,

Australia and New Zealand were well represented in WW1. I wonder if TWC fled from Auckland back to Fiji to avoid the draft and . . . whoops!

By the way, how do you know TTC died in 1886?

Regards,

Simon

[A.P. Wolf]

Yes, indeed, Robert & Simon, I do entertain the vague suspicion that TTC fled for South Africa - and managed to sire yet another family - not to avoid conscription though, but rather a criminal conviction.
'e were a lad though, and deserves a book all of 'is own. The present ruling dynasty of Fiji are relations of his.

[Robert Linford]

Well AP, Cliff Richard wants to have a number one in every decade. Maybe TTC wanted to father children on every continent.

Simon, it was in a pedigree I obtained from the National Archives. The pedigree was drawn up for a court case.

[Sam Flynn]

Well AP, Cliff Richard wants to have a number one in every decade.
He's had the occasional "Number 2" as well...

[Simon Wood]

Hi Robert,

Thank you for that. Odd that the NA pedigree didn't say where he died.

Here's TTC In August 1880, age 36, about to apply for a discharge from his insolvency.

Victoria Government Gazette, 27th August 1880—

6961

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

I missed this in the original Sun reports on Thomas Cutbush, but it makes sense to me: 'which enables a man to defy detection by mixing among those who are seeking for him.' In other words, a cop, or a very close relation of one.

It makes no sense to me. Because it was a cop, and a neighbor at that, who supected Thomas Cutbush of being the Ripper. Insp Race knew who Cutbush was. That could be why he rose to his attention in the first place.

So the Sun seems to be making a wild guess out of left field, a guess which could be 180 degrees backwards.

Roy

[A.P. Wolf]

But Roy, the question must be 'did Executive Chief Superintendent Charles Henry Cutbush know who Thomas Cutbush was'?
Answer me that... and you solve the biggest murder mystery of all time.

[Simon Wood]

Hi AP,

I suspect you're leading us into a trap, but here goes anyway.

In 1881 Amelia Cutbush, THC's grandmother, was living in Chief Inspector Charles Henry Cutbush's house at 36 St Paul's Road, Newington, Surrey.

Why would CHC not know THC and who he was?

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi AP,

Yes Supt Charles Cutbush knew young Thomas Hayne Cutbush was his nephew, who was raised in the neighborhood at the Hayne residence, after Charles' brother, Thomas Taylor Cutbush, the boy's father, left the country.

I thought we established that.

Roy

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Simon and Roy
yes it is a trap... trouble is I can't spring it yet.
But as I think you'll know I have always speculated that Thomas Hayne Cutbush was in fact the son of Charles Henry Cutbush, and this is why Thomas Taylor Cutbush abandoned him at such a young age and fled the country. As I said that is mere speculation on my behalf.

[How Brown]

Hang on gents...

I thought that Robert Linford provided some evidence that THC and Uncle Chas. weren't related. Has something occurred to change that recently?

Thank you.

[A.P. Wolf]

Indeed How... which is why I have always been dubious of the 'uncle-nephew' relationship claimed between Thomas and 'uncle' Charles of Scotland Yard; and have always felt that the bond that tied them together was perhaps stronger than that. Now apparently documents have come to light which do cast doubts on exactly how many children 'uncle' Charles sired. Sadly I'm not at liberty to discuss those documents as they are the property of a third party, but I hope one day soon to be able to do that thing.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning,

While we are waiting for bigger fish to fry, we know young Tom grew up on Albert Street. He was there when he was 6 and when he was 16. In the 71 & 81 census. And he still lived at home with mom right up until he went to jail, right?

http://london1868.com/weller67b.htm

The next logical question about him would be - what school(s) and church(es) did he attend in the neighborhood growing up? Since there is so much work done already by the research posse, does anyone know, or have an educated guess to make?

Roy

[A.P. Wolf]

Roy, I've just caught up with your thread on Casebook on the Metropolitan Tabernacle, and I have to say I think you are most likely bang on the target here with young Thomas attending this place of worship.
Thomas Cutbush was inordinately fond of Dr Joseph Parker, hence his visits to the Temple, but Parker and the main preacher at the Tabernacle, Sturgeon, were great friends - and rivals it must be said - and there appears to be some evidence that Parker also preached at the Tabernacle.
School might be difficult though, as I reckon Thomas was probably educated at home for much of his teen years by his doting aunt and mother.

[Roy Corduroy]

Home schooling. Hadn't thought of that, AP.

Right across the street from the Tabernacle was St Mary's Newington National School. Closer still to his residence, was the Regency Square School, just over Kennington Park Road. Those were both good sized.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Moving ahead to 1888, when he was 23 years old, he was reported to be gainfully employed, in the East End of London. Other times he was said to lay up all day, then out all hours of the night, coming home with his clothes muddy. Is our suspect -

(1) Daygig Tom, or
(2) Tom Nighthawk?

Roy

[Robert Linford]

There was I think in 1881 a schoolmaster lodging with the family. Perhaps this was a tutor for Thomas.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Who's this?

Langham Hotel Guide to London, 1894—

7103

Regards,

Simon

[Robert Linford]

Hi Simon

I don't think it was anyone important. I do seem to remember a branch was in politics.

The biggest pests were the horticultural Cutbushes. Every other article I turned up concerned rose-sniffers.

[Roy Corduroy]

There was I think in 1881 a schoolmaster lodging with the family. Perhaps this was a tutor for Thomas.

That would be John Bodrick, Schoolmaster. Blamorgan, Wales.

Thanks Robert.

I don't understand what Tom Cutbush was doing in Holloway prison, located in Islington after being arrested March 9, 1891. Wasn't he accused of stabbing women in Kennington, Lambeth? Was there no prison south of the river, or was Holloway a catchment?

Roy

[Robert Linford]

I'm not sure, Roy. Perhaps Holloway was chosen because it had a doctor who could pronounce on questions of insanity, though one would have expected other prisons to have one too.

[Debra Arif]

I don't understand what Tom Cutbush was doing in Holloway prison, located in Islington after being arrested March 9, 1891. Wasn't he accused of stabbing women in Kennington, Lambeth? Was there no prison south of the river, or was Holloway a catchment?

Roy

Roy, Robert, I am just catching up with this Cutbush thread.
I just read recently that Holloway in the 1890's was a prison for all classes awaiting trial..I'm not sure if that means the, or not. Later to be replaced by Brixton Prison c late 1900's.

[Roy Corduroy]

Oh, OK Debs. Thank you.

Does the now-released Cutbush Broadmoor file show he was diagnosed and/or treated there by the medical staff for syphilis or venereal disease?

Roy

[Stephen Thomas]

The bottom Line:

Collicott gets a slap on the wrist.

Cutbush gets a one way ticket to Broadmoor which is........

Errrrr, the UK's special clink for mentally unstable murderers.

For the same offence?

[Roy Corduroy]

Quoting myself. :attention:

Does the now-released Cutbush Broadmoor file show he was diagnosed and/or treated there by the medical staff for syphilis or venereal disease?

The answer is no, supplied by the Richard Jones website which has a synopsis of the case file. That's helpful. Not seen anything else after all the hoopla. :blabla:

Roy

[Debra Arif]

Sorry Roy, I could have answered that for you, I have seen the file as transcribed and kindly sent to me by Robert Linford but I wasn't sure if it would be ok to say what was in it as I'm not sure what plans Robert and AP have for the information and I don't want to tread on anyone's toes.

[A.P. Wolf]

No worries on my part, Debs, you know me... and anyways my toes fell off years ago in abject shame at the rest of me.
Point to note though is that the Broadmoor files do confirm Dr Brooke's earlier diagnosis that Thomas' syphillis was imaginary.

[A.P. Wolf]

Worth mentioning that some fairly soft evidence - at the moment - is emerging which appears to indicate that the relationship between Charles Henry Cutbush and Thomas's father, Thomas Taylor Cutbush, has been clouded and obscured by the fact that Thomas Taylor's father may have been adopted by Charles Henry Cutbush's father, making them half brothers.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Speak of the .......

A.P., it's good to see you. :clap2: Your name came up yesterday in the Trow thread. (In a good way........) Love to hear your take on the book proposing "Walter" as the Ripper.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10840&page=2

[Robert Linford]

TESTING

[How Brown]

Bump Up:

This is, by my reckoning, the 80th post on the thread...covering two pages.

Let me know whether it isn't for anyone else.

It may require me doing a photobucket job on the two pages, covering every post on the two pages, but I won't be able to do that today...maybe tomorrow.

[How Brown]

I undeleted one post which makes this the 82nd post on the 3rd thread.

[Robert Linford]

Thanks for sorting it out How. Your post 10.37PM was post 82 on the 9th page on my machine. My post that was post 70 has now become post 71. I think I'll quit while I'm ahead.

Debs, I don't mind you posting anything from the files though I can't vouch for pinpoint accuracy on the transcriptions. They were very fiddly and I got in a terrible mess on microsoft.

[How Brown]

Bob:

Evidently, you're recieving 10 posts per page. You're in synch with me in terms of post count. Thanks for getting back to me.

I never knew that anyone recieved 10 posts per page.

[Robert Linford]

How, it's always been 10 for me.

One thing that used to happen, was that a thread would say maybe 9 pages but when you try to on from the bottom of page 8, it stays on page 8. That doesn't seem to happen now.

[Debra Arif]

I can see it all now! Thanks How.
Glad I'm not the only dysfunctional one, Robert.

I just checked what you were answering there Robert, that was the old post of mine that was missing from the thread that I mentioned earlier. I don't have the transcripts anymore unfortunately. They are on a hard drive in the computer graveyard in my garage. :(

Welcome back AP.

[Robert Linford]

I'll try to sort something out Debs. They're on my machine somewhere.

[How Brown]

I'm putting the thread back into the Cutbush section under "Suspects".

[Debra Arif]

Thanks Robert.
Glad this thread is all sorted now and I can see AP's post

Worth mentioning that some fairly soft evidence - at the moment - is emerging which appears to indicate that the relationship between Charles Henry Cutbush and Thomas's father, Thomas Taylor Cutbush, has been clouded and obscured by the fact that Thomas Taylor's father may have been adopted by Charles Henry Cutbush's father, making them half brothers.

I can't really get my head around this proposed relationship. Do you have any more details AP?

[A.P. Wolf]

Oh my gosh we have come to the end of the page again!
Thanks for the kind words folks, much appreciated.
Debs, thank you, the father of Thomas Taylor Cutbush was adopted by the Cutbush clan, so may have been considered as not 'family' by many members of that strange clan. I'm not much up for this genealogy stuff, it confuses the hell outta me, but we were looking for a cuckoo in the nest and we have one:

'I was very interested to come acorss your genealogy site for Checkley/Chichely.
I have a distant relative, Thomas Hoskins Cutbush 1766 - 1823 whom it would appear was adopted by my relative, Edward Cutbush 1740 - 1820 of Kent and his wife Anne Chicheley 1742 - 1814 also of Kent and hopefully your relative. Anne's father Richard Chicheley ? - 1778 left a will which said, and I quote: 'I give and bequeath the sum [?] and every part and parcel thereof unto my two daughters Ann the wife of the said Edward Cutbush and Jane Chicheley […] to be divided between them Share and Share alike or take as […] in common and not as Joint [….] and to their heirs as [….] forever. But if it shall happen that my said daughter Ann Cutbush shall depart this life without leaving any Child or Children of her body lawfully Begotten then I give her […] part and Share of my personal Estate unto Thomas Hoskins an infant who now lives with me. Also if he should dye before he attains his age of twenty one years then I give the same [… money?] unto my said son Henry Richard Chicheley....'

Thomas Hoskins Cutbush 1766-1823 married another distant relative of mine - a Clarissa Flood 1768 - 1843. Thomas was Master of Ordnance, Tower of London. It would appear that the HOSKINS, CHICHELEY and CUTBUSH families all worked at the Tower of London. '

[Debra Arif]

Thanks AP,
I had heard about this before.
Thomas Hoskins Cutbush was the Great grandfather of Thomas Taylor Cutbush though, not his father , so this is burried quite a way back in the skeleton cupboard, and it still doesn't seem to explain any connection with Charles Henry Cutbush.

Recently I checked out whether it could be Collicott who was related to CHC as I found CHC's son, (also Charles)in 1911, living a couple of doors down from the house Collicott lived when he was charged in 1891.
Couldn't find any link there either though.

[Robert Linford]

AP, as Debs said this is too far back for the relationship you require. But I admire your tenacity!

[A.P. Wolf]

And I admire yours and Debs, Robert!
I know it is shaky stuff, but I just thought it illustrates the point that we don't really know what the hell went on with the Cutbush clan in those days. We do know that we have a cuckoo in the nest though, and the ramifications of that would have influenced just about everything.
We have to explain why Thomas thought his uncle was Charles, and we have to explain why Charles thought his nephew was Thomas, and then why the most senior police officers of the time went along with that.
This is not a bad bluff.