Stabbing Of Women In South London 1891

[How Brown]

For A.P.:couch2:...this article isn't found on Casebook in the Lloyd's articles....

STABBING OF WOMEN IN SOUTH LONDON
Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper (London, England)
Sunday, April 19, 1891

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[How Brown]

Another one for The Wolf....:plane:...one that is not in Casebook's archives in the Lloyd's papers.

Regardless of some of my comments in the past...and others made recently in regard to Cutbush ( I think all the known suspects fall short of the mark...and who shivs a git about what I think...)... to me, there's no question that the developments that materialized after Tommy went a'pokin make him the most important suspect in the Case and one of its most important figures.

Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper (London, England)
Sunday, May 3, 1891

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[A.P. Wolf]

Nicely done How, that is powerful good reading, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention, for there is certainly a lot more in the report than others I have seen. I shall study it until the words fall off the page.
Well done my man.

[How Brown]

I thought it had a little extra oomph to it myself A.P.

Obviously, you and Bob Linford have seen more articles than I, but this one seems to be a good introduction to studying or considering Cutbush instead of some of the truncated reports that appear on occasion.

My pleasure, A.P.:kiss:

[A.P. Wolf]

On the contrary, How, the article you posted contains many facets to the Cutbush saga which have eluded me, and there are some very interesting nobules therein, upon which I shall dwell.
Again my thanks to you for making that effort to improve our knowledge and understanding of the exact cicumstances of the sudden demise of Thomas Cutbush.
I believe things are about to change in regard to Cutbush and his relationship to the Whitechapel Murders.
Maybe I should write a book pronto and make a few farthings before everyone jumps in?

[How Brown]

Someone ought to put together a documentary on the circumstances A.P.....not only about TC but the aftermath such as Inspector Race being overlooked for promotion due to him telling tales out of school and the birth of the Macnaghten memoranda....all because of Cutbush.

And no one else but Cutbush.

[Nemo]

Hi AP & Howard

Is it confirmed that TC was in possession of a medical diagram of an open human torso?

I haven't studied TC much but I thought the doodles and diagrams connected with him were of a more immature type - such as legs being drawn below a cut-out of a female

Any info is much appreciated - there is much surrounding the TC case that requires adequate explanation IMO

[A.P. Wolf]

Well Nemo, thanks to How, we can see that the diagrams in Cutbush's possession at the time of his arrest were a lot more alarming than we are led to believe by Macnaghten in his barely credible Memo, so that is indeed a step forward. It appears from the report How found that Cutbush was doodling his own pleasures down on paper, illustrations of women ripped apart in such a disturbing fashion that the reporter merely hints at the brutality of the second image.
My personal belief is that the discovery of these self-made images in Cutbush's possession acted as confirmation for police suspicions that Thomas Cutbush was indeed the Whitechapel Murderer; and that then the police - and Treasury - moved heaven and earth to avoid a public trial of a close relation to one of the most senior serving police officers of Her Majesty's Realm, hence Her Majesty's Pleasure.
And we have the Sun to thank for busting their dubious little game of charades.

[A.P. Wolf]

This is where Thomas attempted to kip on the weekend of his arrest. The Salvation Army Headquarters in Queen Victoria Street, perhaps he had a season ticket as the Army also operated out of one his properties in the Whitechapel Road?
Good underground connections as well, so his aunt may well have been wrong... that Thomas couldn't be in two places at once, for he almost could.

[Roy Corduroy]

From the second article -

"...the statement made by Mrs Dickinson, who has been seen by a representative of Lloyd's. Mrs Dickinson keeps a gunsmith's shop in the Minories, close to the Tower of London, and it was there that Cutbush purchased the dagger that was produced at the police court."

9981

Gunsmiths in the 1895 Trades directory

[Roy Corduroy]

9983

Online is an 1873 Winchester rifle for sale with the Dickinson inscription. (click here) (http://antiquearmsinc.com/1873-winchester-shotgun-buttplate.htm)
The gunsmith where Thomas Cutbush purchased his knife. See previous post.

Roy

ps Chris Scott had transcribed these news articles on Casebook for ease of reading (here) (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1387)

Edit: Jake L had found the gunsmith and mapped it on a CB post back in 2008 (click) (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=55453#post55453)

[Mags]

Very interested to see Cutbush's candidacy revived.

BTW, the word "bush" referrring to female pubic hair dates from around 1745. I've always been fascinated by Thomas's last name and the significance it might pose to a schizophrenic.

[Stephen Thomas]

Very interested to see Cutbush's candidacy revived.



Yes, there is a very great mystery here in that people are hypnotised by the MM Memorandum and do not want to know about certainl stuff, namely that Cutbush was a far better candidate than those patsies (to my mind ho ho) Druitt, Kosminski and Ostrog.

But each to their own.

[Cris Malone]

Exactly!

Because Cutbush is dismissed by Macnaghten, nearly everyone else does the same. But if you take into account the behavior of serial murderers since then and what has been learned...well... Cutbush does seem more viable than the three that Macnaghten put forth.

Our own predispositions as to what kind of person 'Jack the Ripper' was still gets in the way and it is molded, to some extent, by what several of these policemen perceived and what we have been 'programed' with since then; and this is from a man that has studied and admires the man who really would have ever come close to knowing Jack their Ripper... Donald Sutherland Swanson... but, you know what? he was probably wrong!

We have learned in the past 120 years that sexual serial killers display certain traits; that they are not always consistent; that they act out 'fantasies' that do not always have the same conclusions and their actions vary in intensity according to the situation; that they can perform the most macabre murders in one sense... then, commit a violation on the targeted individual to a lesser one... but, have we really learned anything?

A few weeks ago, Howard tried to start a thread on the Stride murder that would attempt to concentrate on the forensics only... to start at square one... if you will. It lasted only a couple of posts before it was ripped to shreds by those who had a predetermined aspect as to who might have done it. They had programmed themselves to believe a certain way.

To this day... to this very day... few have tried to assimilate the information available without a predetermined bias... despite the lessons that have been learned in the 120 some odd years. Agendas are set beforehand. Suspect theories are arrived at before all of the information is assimilated and the information received; henceforth, is disregarded if it doesn't fit the mold that we have formed.

Jack the Ripper is a myth, but the idea that a single individual didn't perpetrate many of these abnormal and horrendous murders is probably a myth as well.

History repeats itself because we are too stupid to learn from it.

[Tom_Wescott]

A few weeks ago, Howard tried to start a thread on the Stride murder that would attempt to concentrate on the forensics only... to start at square one... if you will. It lasted only a couple of posts before it was ripped to shreds by those who had a predetermined aspect as to who might have done it. They had programmed themselves to believe a certain way.

I don't recall this thread. Can you tell me where it's at?

To this day... to this very day... few have tried to assimilate the information available without a predetermined bias... despite the lessons that have been learned in the 120 some odd years. Agendas are set beforehand. Suspect theories are arrived at before all of the information is assimilated and the information received; henceforth, is disregarded if it doesn't fit the mold that we have formed.

I would only agree with this statement to a certain extent. I think many, many writers have tried to evaluate the evidence without a suspect in mind. But evaluating anything without any kind of personal bias is impossible for a human being. Impossible.

Regarding Stride, her murder is the most poorly researched and reasoned victim of all the C5, and by a large margin. Aside from myself, Dave Yost is the only writer I'm aware of who made Stride the special subject of a long, objective study. You won't see this in his book, because he ceased to be objective years prior to writing it. I'm fortunate in that I was able to maintain my full objectivity prior to having a favored suspect, who in fact, arose from my study, and not vice verse, which is evidenced by my published writings. The forensics of the Stride case are few and really not all that difficult to understand, as long as you separate it from all the ridiculous myths, sloppy research and witness evidence. I'm eternally shocked when I see otherwise rational researchers totally lose their marbles where Stride is concerned. I'm not sure this will ever change though. I do believe all the Michael Kidney nonsense (the main reason most people think she wasn't a Ripper victim) will become a thing of past, no matter how many times I have to publish on it.

Regarding Cutbush, the first mystery must be why Race thought he was the Ripper. The second is why on earth Macnaghten concluded he was the nephew of Supt. Cutbush, when he was not. I personally don't see any mystery in why he would feel a need to concoct the MM, believing what he did, nor why Race would be censured. That was par for the course considering his actions.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra Arif]

Regarding Cutbush, the first mystery must be why Race thought he was the Ripper. The second is why on earth Macnaghten concluded he was the nephew of Supt. Cutbush, when he was not...

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

And the third would be why Macnaghten was still saying that Cutbush's father had died when he was young? As per the erroneous 1891 newspaper accounts where it's first mentioned that there is some sort of suspicion attached to Cutbush over the Whitechapel murders.
In 1894, The Sun mentions correctly that Thomas's father had gone abroad and contracted a bigamous marriage, the NZ and Australian press were also well aware, in 1894, that Thomas's father was a New Zealand colonist, and published this fact in their papers.
This may be an incredibly stupid question, as I'm not exactly sure how the police would have worked over these allegations made by Race and the Sun, but was Cutbush even looked into again after the revelations in the Sun in 1894? Or was Macnaghten just satisfied that a good enough investigation into the claims had been done in 1891 and could be safely written off?

I jokingly say sometimes that perhaps Macnaghten's memo reflects the fact that there was no suspect better than Cutbush and was written to cover up that fact...and I'm really starting to wonder now. :)

[How Brown]

Tom:

Thanks for giving me another point to ponder idea...more later.:thumb:

[Chris G.]

I jokingly say sometimes that perhaps Macnaghten's memo reflects the fact that there was no suspect better than Cutbush and was written to cover up that fact...and I'm really starting to wonder now. :)

Actually you might have something there, Debs.

Chris

[Tom_Wescott]

Debs,

Don't you suppose that the Thomas 'nephew' myth emanated from Thomas himself, who couldn't help but have known that a well placed figure had his relatively rare and strange surname? And it is possible that Supt. Cutbush could have had reason to think Thomas MIGHT be his nephew? Has anyone researched the Supe's brothers to see if anything sticks out that would lead the Supe to not be in a position to disprove the claims?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra Arif]

Tom,
That scenario is possible although would it mean that Cutbush's own mother (and aunt) was not sure if Charles Henry Cutbush was related to her estranged husband , because surely Macnaghten would not have been incompetent and sloppy enough to have not checked with them at all?
And it still wouldn't explain Macnaghten repeating the outdated information on Cutbush's father when the correct details were common knowledge to everyone else.

[Cris Malone]

I don't recall this thread. Can you tell me where it's at?

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=13649


Regarding Stride, her murder is the most poorly researched and reasoned victim of all the C5, and by a large margin...The forensics of the Stride case are few and really not all that difficult to understand, as long as you separate it from all the ridiculous myths, sloppy research and witness evidence. I'm eternally shocked when I see otherwise rational researchers totally lose their marbles where Stride is concerned...

Agree, 100%

...And it still wouldn't explain Macnaghten repeating the outdated information on Cutbush's father when the correct details were common knowledge to everyone else.

And there would be no logical reason to do so, even if one subscribes to the theory that Macnaghten was being deceptive. If the purpose of the report was to debunk the idea of Cutbush as a valid suspect, it would be imperative that he would get his facts straight about him.

Just imagine if the MM was ever used, in whole or part, to publicly take on the Sun. Savvy journalists like Ernest Parke would have ripped it to shreds and Macnaghten would have been toast. I believe someone higher than Macnaghten read this, decided to shelve it and let the controversy die of natural causes rather than run the risk of the press investigating the suspects mentioned (even if their names weren't used). Men like O'Conner and Parke were of a different breed than the self-centered Sims. They were always ready to pounce on SY or the Home Office and had the motive and resources to do it. What they did with the Cleveland St. scandal proved that.

[Chris G.]

Debs,

Don't you suppose that the Thomas 'nephew' myth emanated from Thomas himself, who couldn't help but have known that a well placed figure had his relatively rare and strange surname? And it is possible that Supt. Cutbush could have had reason to think Thomas MIGHT be his nephew? Has anyone researched the Supe's brothers to see if anything sticks out that would lead the Supe to not be in a position to disprove the claims?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

I am not sure that the average man in the street would necessarily know the name of different Scotland Yard officials, even if they shared the same name. Would most Londoners today know who holds various positions in the Metropolitan Police? No, I am sure they would not. Except perhaps for a Met bigwig who might have come to special notice, as with Sir Charles Warren who came under public and press scrutiny at the time of the Whitechapel murders or, in our day, Sir Ian Blair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Blair) having to resign after the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes following the 2007 al Quada terrorist attacks and difficulties he had with London Mayor Boris Johnson. Much of course as Warren similarly submitted his resignation -- although not (common misconception) over the murders but because of the friction between himself and Home Secretary Henry Matthews.

Best regards

Chris

[Maria Birbili]

Has anyone researched the Supe's brothers to see if anything sticks out that would lead the Supe to not be in a position to disprove the claims?
I thought you were talking about Don Souden.
(Many apologies to all for the silly joke.)

[Debra Arif]

And there would be no logical reason to do so, even if one subscribes to the theory that Macnaghten was being deceptive. If the purpose of the report was to debunk the idea of Cutbush as a valid suspect, it would be imperative that he would get his facts straight about him.



I agree, Cris.