Leather Apron & A Seafaring Man

[How Brown]

In order to distance any discussion on the content of the following article from appearing on the new " Evolution of Leather Apron" thread....I decided to place this article here.

Birmingham Daily Post (Birmingham, England)
Thursday, September 6, 1888

Has anyone ever heard of and does anyone know who this seafaring man was?

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/la1.jpg

[Chris G.]

Hi Howard

Chris Scott started a thread at Casebook on "A Seafaring Man" (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1381) in September of last year but no one came up with the answer to his question or yours as to who the sailor could have been. The report appeared in several other newspapers, including the Irish Times and the Manchester Guardian both of September 6.

Chris

[How Brown]

CG:

Well dammit, lets do something about that then over here.

I'll start on that now....going backwards from September 8th.


I see Tom was the only one to respond and since he's back on board here, maybe TC can chip in too.

In Jan. 1886, a man named Flanagan recieved 6 months (for a brutal assault on a woman) at Macclesfield Court. His occupation is unknown. He was however,regarded as a notorious character.

[Chris G.]

CG:

Well dammit, lets do something about that then over here.

I'll start on that now....going backwards from September 8th.


I see Tom was the only one to respond and since he's back on board here, maybe TC can chip in too.

In Jan. 1886, a man named Flanagan recieved 6 months (for a brutal assault on a woman) at Macclesfield Court. His occupation is unknown. He was however,regarded as a notorious character.

Hi there Howie

I take it than that Flanagan's occupation was sailor, is that right? Of course you realise that Macclesfield is in Cheshire not far from Manchester, and so it is not in the London area. Presumably for Flanagan to qualify he would have had to have been in the London area at the time of the crimes to be a suspect for the Whitechapel murders.

All the best

Chris

[Nemo]

A case I came across involving a seafaring man with a knife was the following, from 1886 which resulted in a not guilty verdict

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?ref=t18861213-66

This is despite the man seemingly stabbing numerous persons in some type of escape frenzy

The report is very telling as to some of the events that could occur to a foreign sailor visiting a brothel

The brothel mentioned is a notorious one located in Shadwell - seemingly with a reputation for robbing foreign sailors in particular

I don't think it is our man though

[How Brown]

Actually C.G. I didn't know that Macclesfield was near Manchester...and aborted my intended trawling to find other men. I didn't think he amounted to much anyway, but I needed to start somewhere before I ultimately stopped.

Nemo on the other hand went about it in the right way. The OB is a damned good source and if the man in the original article that Chris Scott mentioned first was a local guy, its very likely that he will be in the source Nemo provided.

Good going Neems.

[Chris G.]

A case I came across involving a seafaring man with a knife was the following, from 1886 which resulted in a not guilty verdict

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?ref=t18861213-66

This is despite the man seemingly stabbing numerous persons in some type of escape frenzy

The report is very telling as to some of the events that could occur to a foreign sailor visiting a brothel

The brothel mentioned is a notorious one located in Shadwell - seemingly with a reputation for robbing foreign sailors in particular

I don't think it is our man though

A good find, Nemo. I do agree with you that this incident might be a bit too early to match up with the report of the "seafaring man" suspected in the Whitechapel murder, but it does seem to be a typical incident involving a sailor in the dock areas of the East End.

Chris

[Nemo]

Hi guys

It is distinct a possibility that the Ripper had committed a very similar attack and then found not guilty, or not even arrested, encouraging him to think his actions justified and acceptable

For this guy Petersen to have been found not guilty despite all the injuries meted out implies to me that the judge and jury had sympathies for the victims of the brothel keepers / robbers

[Debra Arif]

Hi all,
Is it too early to be Piggott? He was a ships cook I believe.

[How Brown]

Debs:

The answer was staring at us in the face...and it took you to point it out. Thanks very much:clap2:

Thats almost certainly who the "seafaring man" was. Both Pizer and Piggott are found in the same articles on several occasions.

[Chris G.]

Hi all,
Is it too early to be Piggott? He was a ships cook I believe.

Well done, Debs, in solving this conundrum. As Sugden (p. 147) states, "Pizer was one of several men detained by the police within three days of the Hanbury Street tragedy. . . . Apart from Pizer, however, the only one of whom much was written was William Henry Piggott, a fifty-three-year-old ship's cook arrested in Gravesend on Sunday night."

All the best

Chris

[Chris G.]

Wait!!! No, that won't do, I don't think. Chapman was murdered on the morning of Saturday, 8 September. Piggott was arrested within three days of the murder in Gravesend.... and yet the quoted news item mentioning the "seafaring man" was from the Birmingham Daily Post of Thursday, September 6, 1888. So, unless suspicions in regard to Piggott were entertained in the days prior to Chapman's murder, it was not Piggott who was the "seafaring man".

Chris

[Debra Arif]

Hi How, Chris,
Thanks, the date of the 6th of September was why I asked if it was too early to be Piggott. I was wondering if anyone knew if he had been suspected prior to the Chapman murder. Seems not though.

[Chris G.]

Hi How, Chris,
Thanks, the date of the 6th of September was why I asked if it was too early to be Piggott. I was wondering if anyone knew if he had been suspected prior to the Chapman murder. Seems not though.

Hello Debs

Piggott was certainly arrested after the Chapman murder. I am unsure as to whether there might have been suspicions about him beforehand. The Times of Wednesday, 12 September informs us that Piggott was first noticed by witnesses as seeming suspicious on Sunday afternoon at 4:00 pm in Gravesend. That would have been 9 September.

Chris

[Debra Arif]

I was wondering if maybe someone (police perhaps) could have remembered him for being someone acting oddly on the streets of Whitechapel at an earlier time before the murders. He was picked up on Brick Lane in the June of 1888 and sent to the Whitechapel Infirmary.

[Sam Flynn]

Nemo on the other hand went about it in the right way.

Good going Neems.
... if anyone here is going to know a thing or two about seafaring men, it'll be Nemo :)

[Nemo]

lol Sam

I can only find a small addition to the story from the Morning Advertiser of the same date which says that the seafaring man was of little importance but as he frequented lodging houses and was reported as carrying a large sheath knife, the police were keeping an eye out for him...

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/morning_advertiser/18880906.html