The Vivisectionists...

[Nemo]

Hi all

I thought I'd drop a few links in here for you to peruse...

Anti-vivisectionism was associated with the feminist cause. A success by the feminist movement which may have affected the psyche of the Ripper may have been the repeal of the Contagious diseases act in 1886 (see links below)

The new fangled medical contraptions prevalent in the LVP, especially gynaecological examination tables with their straps etc were particularly abhorred by women. Along with sadistic pornography, flagellation and the like, it encouraged women to associate their moral and legal position in the LVP with that of the animals strapped down and "tortured" in the name of vivisection

Vivisection encompassed every experiment on animals at the time. Vaccinations were held up as human vivisection experiments and greatly opposed. On a protest march against vaccination in February 1888, a banner was used which depicted a doctor depicted as a sadist with many knives standing over his patient

Here are some relevant links which I will comment on at a later date...

Parliamentary acts March 1888
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1888/mar/01/motion-for-papers

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1888/mar/09/motion-for-an-address-1

Jenner appeal for pro-vivisection lobby April 1888
http://www.jstor.org/pss/25262796

The vivisection bill April 1888
http://www.jstor.org/pss/25262793

Lewis Carroll-Hunting of the Snark as an antivivisection text
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6560/is_2_47/ai_n32406597/?tag=content;col1

Vivisection,philosophy, feminism, female castration etc
http://www.ontheissuesmagazine.com/1988vol9/vol9_1988_metaphors.php

Repeal of Contagious diseases act - feminism and prostitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_Butler#Contagious_Diseases_Act

Edmund Gurney - Tertium Quid - On pain & anaesthetics
http://www.archive.org/details/tertiumquidchap07gurngoog

Victorian taxidermy and Sadistic pornography
http://www.sottisier.co.uk/victoriana/hughes/index.html

Motives for Vivisection and Jack the Ripper
http://vivisectionfraud.com/motives.html

Claude Bernard publication, father of vivisection speaks
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MIx8D61JlboC&dq=Claude+Bernard&printsec=frontcover&source=an&hl=en&ei=dFM6S8OhIczG4QbBnfypCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Dracula image used by anti-vaccinators
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TtMDl7n8iq8C&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=antivivisection+doctors+jewish&source=bl&ots=3piG4708iy&sig=EGT3Ogyj8B9OQo-QoBztxt_4Y00&hl=en&ei=lrc4S-HvK8734AbqtcyqCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCAQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Darwin on vivisection
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?viewtype=text&itemID=F1354&pageseq=1
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?viewtype=image&itemID=F1356&pageseq=1

General vivisection text explaining the action of curare and chloroform
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Vivisection

[How Brown]

Nice list Nemo..

That book by Gurney is probably one of his last works...

Thanks for sharing buddy.

[Chris G.]

Nice list Nemo..

That book by Gurney is probably one of his last works...

Thanks for sharing buddy.


Edmund Gurney (1847-1888) (http://www.utilitarianism.com/gurney/index.html)

Elementary, Howard, since it was published the year before he died. You are a regular Sherlock Holmes. :)

Chris

[Debra Arif]

Hi Nemo,
I just read your post on the double eventing thread about vivisection and the torso's. I'm not sure what you are asking me yet, I hope I'm on the right thread as I noticed there was another that mentioned vivisection too.
Anway, I'll have a read through those thinks you posted first.

[Nemo]

Thanks for the reply Debra

I was wondering if you would consider whether any of the torso victims could have been used as experimental subjects for anatomists or even vivisectionists (cutting up or experimenting on - while alive)

I'm not sure myself what would be evidence of this

Most anatomy and vivisection dissects the body along it's natural lines

Those vivisection links are only preliminary ones to introduce the subject

I have seen descriptions of experiments such as baking or boiling alive, severing or dissecting out nerves, opening the abdomen to observe organs and intestines at work, electrocution etc as well as simple removal of limbs and the like

I know you've mentioned cloth "plugs" before - were any of these (apologies for the crudeness) in the anus? (to me this may indicate the victim was alive before "torture" commenced - as in when a convict about to be electrocuted is plugged in the anus)

I'm a lowly amateur with miniscule knowledge regarding this aspect, and I'm sure you would have researched the anatomists and vivisectionists for your book - you may have come across civilians who for years were carrying out vivisection experiments and charging money to watch (illegal since 1876). I would imagine these illegal experiments attracted a very secretive clientele and I can't believe they stopped just because the law changed

Watching animals being goaded in the Tower zoo was very popular too

In those links you may also see a connection between mutilation / sadism / torture that was prevalent in the LVP (possibly Satanism chucked in the mix as well) especially the idea of women being strapped down and flagellated among other things, totally pliant victims for their male masters

Was there any evidence of bondage before death on the torsos?

So you get the general idea - do you think any of this may be connected with any of the torsos? - remember that making a corpse grimace by galvanism was practiced and that any part of the body that would show that such a thing had occured (ie holes where the electrodes were inserted) may have been destroyed, while the rest of the body was disposed of

Also, Dracula was used as a metaphor by anti-vaccination groups, whereas Frankenstein would be more appropriate for the anatomists/vivisectionists and I think a hand from one of the torsos was found in Percey Shelley's son's garden (I think it was his son)

Apologies for being vague and posing so many questions

Any response would be greatly appreciated

[Debra Arif]

Wow, Nemo, there's certainly a lot to consider there! I see you've been giving it a lot of thought. Let me digest all this and I'll certainly try and make some comment on your ideas if I can.
Vivisection is something I've come across mentioned in the Whitechapel murders, I think there was an early theory about Annie chapman concerning vivisection at one point wasn't there? And I've read the views of people like Sir William Gull on pro vivisection, but to be honest, I probably haven't given it much thought concerning the torso murders....

Regarding your comments about 'plugging' which occured in the Elizabeth Jackson murder, (which was the anus, to be equally crude) I find your information there very interesting indeed.

I'll definitely get back to you on this Nemo, and thanks for posting your thoughts.

[Nemo]

Hi Debra

Thanks very much for the reply and contemplating the premise

Vivisection was mentioned a number of times throughout the case.

Observing whimpering or even screaming animals with open wounds and carrying out experiments such as pouring boiling water into the stomach etc was purported to produce in the observer a cruel and inhuman coldness.

Feminists used this as a metaphor for the way they were treated in general (as women) but I haven't found any major feminist work describing the Ripper's work as a culmination of man's cruelty to women - though I expect to do so

Feminists were reported as trying to influence hospitals where they knew vivisection was carried out by writing a number of letters to the hospital pretending to be rich women about to make substantial cash donations and then withdrawing the offer when they supposedly realised about the vivisection

Actually, it appears to me that vaccination was the main point of contention as it was seen as an extension of vivisection that had moved on to experimenting with humans, doctors growing and nurturing filth and disease (inoculations of bacteria and the like) in the women and children

I've come across patients who died and were passed to the anatomists without the family's permission, inoculation / vaccination without consent, the administering of alcohol to a 10 year old boy to observe temperature changes in his body and other similar cases

I think the general idea was that doctors thought themselves omnipotent and were not held accountable for their actions, often acting on just a whim

Entry into a hospital during this period of time must have been a very daunting prospect really. It reminds me of Green Solient a bit - lol

[How Brown]

A decade after the WM, the publication, "The Abolitionist" appeared and was brought about by none other than....drum roll.... Mabel Collins. It was a cornerstone of the British vivisectionist movement for a half century. This as well as the following may be found in Kim Farnell's biography of Collins, Mystical Vampire, and on the internet.

Even Queen Vicky was concerned with vivisectionists. One other tidbit to share here is the role of the vivisectionist movement to eliminate small pox vaccinations in Britain. That began in the 1850's and is worth looking into. Thousands died as a result of recieving a vaccination and many lost their homes and went to jail for resisting efforts to have themselves and their children vaccinated. Sort of like what happened to people in the resistance movement against forced busing to achieve integration in schools here in the USA.

By the way, is there a big pox ? : )

[Nemo]

Thanks for that Howard

Anna Kingsford seems to be the main Theosophist anti-vivisectionist as far as I can make out

[Nemo]

I forgot to update you on a couple of things from Man; A Forgotten History - a major Theosophist publication second edition 1887

(I'm writing from memory now but I can fish the book out if anyone requires direct references)

Remember these guys and gals believe in magic and the physical presence of advanced spiritual beings on the Earth - mahatmas

There are good and bad people - you know the mahatmas by their purity and wisdom, and you know the bad people by their lot in life

The East End was full of people who were evil and working against mankind as shown by their circumstances

By that token, the haggard prostitutes must have been considered pretty evil

It was up to the mahatmas to defeat these evil people physically and spiritually

Coupled with this is the Theosophist belief that the spirit remains in the body till at least when the body is cold

An example was given of spiritualists contacting a spirit whom remembered the pain of it's autopsy

The other minor point I noticed in this book was a comment on meditation and words that produce peace and benevolence in the mind

The word was the well known "Aum" to be repeated during contemplation

The opposite vocal sound that produces dischord and chaos is "Ha!"

[Sam Flynn]

By the way, is there a big pox ? : )Syphilis - once known as "the Great Pox"; "great" as in "big", that is, as opposed to "super-duper". The "small" in smallpox was used to distinguish between the two.

[Nemo]

I'd just like to point out to Debra that anal (and vaginal) plugging was common in hanging executions and probably anything involving certain tortures or "unusual punishments"

Sorry it's not a nice subject - lol

[How Brown]

I'd just like to point out to Debra that anal (and vaginal) plugging was common in hanging executions and probably anything involving certain tortures or "unusual punishments"

Sorry it's not a nice subject - lol

You definitely made Tim Mosley get chills, let me tell you Nemo.

Thats one reason I would object to being lynched ( Not hung...I'd be happy to be considered as much )...that plugging thing. I'm really leery about anything within 5 feet of the backside. Its my own Area 51.

Sam:

Then why do they call 'em Chicken pox ? Is it because those pox are scared of something ?

[Debra Arif]

I'd just like to point out to Debra that anal (and vaginal) plugging was common in hanging executions and probably anything involving certain tortures or "unusual punishments"

Sorry it's not a nice subject - lol

Thanks for pointing that out Nemo!! ...I think..
Someone once posted on casebook that Arthur Shawcross used this technique and I sat through the whole documentary on his crimes to find nothing mentioned about it.
It was used in Egyptian mummification and sailors used it too...and abortion practices...I wonder which would most apply to Elizabeth Jackson? 7 months pregnant and said to be wanting to 'shunt' the child?

I used to think abortion was a cop out excuse for this girls death and we were all jumping to conclusions just because she was pregnant and shortchanging her...just like the LVP doctors, but (until I get to read more on vivisection) I think it makes sense.

[Sam Flynn]

I'd just like to point out to Debra that anal (and vaginal) plugging was common in hanging executions
... anal I understand, Neems - but vaginal? Were they afraid that the condemned would lay an egg?

[Nemo]

Morning Sam

A diaper was used on a lot occasions to catch urine and faeces, but vaginal plugging was used to prevent the womb etc exiting via the vagina, especially on long-drop hangings

[Sam Flynn]

Morning Sam

A diaper was used on a lot occasions to catch urine and faeces, but vaginal plugging was used to prevent the womb etc exiting via the vagina, especially on long-drop hangingsI'm thankful for that explanation, Neems - and partly sorry that I asked!

[Sam Flynn]

Sam:

Then why do they call 'em Chicken pox ?
Gotta be better than cock-pox, How :)

Seriously, though, I looked this up in the OED, and the origin isn't clear - the best it can offer is that the "chicken" tag likely reflects the mildness of the condition, although the dictionary does cite one reference to the pustules looking like chick-peas. Whatever, it has nothing to do with cowardice... or hens!

[Nemo]

I have a picture of a dissected dog's face and neck beneath which the caption says that it was one of the illustrations produced life-size on hoardings in London in 1877

[How Brown]

Dear Debra:

I've seen two, probably three, documentaries on that waste of space Shawcross and didn't see any mention of the diaper either.

[Chris G.]

I have a picture of a dissected dog's face and neck beneath which the caption says that it was one of the illustrations produced life-size on hoardings in London in 1877

I have to ask why, unless it was an anti-vivisectionist ad much like the PETA ads of today. I wonder though if it could have passed the then censors or action by the authorities, and whether it was put up it was taken down soon thereafter due protests from the public about lack of taste.

C

[Nemo]

It seems to be part of an anti-vivisectionist campaign at that time Chris

It appears to me that there was so much campaigning along these lines and so little apparent press coverage that they were being suppressed

The reason for this would be that anti-vivisectionism had been taken up by feminists and liberalists

The recent successes in medicine, with vaccinations especially, had made a strong case for the vivisectionist cause and the ideas of the feminists were generally ridiculed and dismissed

[Nemo]

From "The Life of Frances Power Cobbe"...

In February, 1877, the Committee, to my satisfaction,
unanimously agreed to support Mr. Holt's Bill for total
prohibition ; and in aid thereof exhibited on the hoardings of
London 1,700 handbills and 300 posters, which were enlarged
reproductions of the illustrations of vivisection from the
Physiological Hand-books. These posters certainly were
more effective than as many thousands of speeches and
pamphlets ; and the indignation of the scientific party
sufficiently proved that such was the case.

I also neglected to mention that Mary Wollstonecroft was a very prominent early feminist philosopher - if not the first

Her daughter, Mary Wollstonecroft-Shelley wrote Frankenstein...

[Caroline Morris]

Someone once posted on casebook that Arthur Shawcross used this technique and I sat through the whole documentary on his crimes to find nothing mentioned about it.

Hi Debs,

In the documentary I saw, the only thing that comes close was the claim by Shawcross that his mother had anally abused him with a broom handle when he was a child. I strongly suspect he made this up to excuse his deviant behaviour as an adult, but the fact that he said it at all would indicate that 'plugging' of one sort or another played on his mind, whether or not he ever experimented on a victim.

Love,

Caz
X

[Debra Arif]

Hi Caz,

Thanks, now you've mentioned that again, I do remember that paticular claim made in the documentary I watched too. Didn't someone in the documentary (a psychologist or police maybe, can't remember which) suggest that the abuse by his mother was probably fictional as well?

It does make you wonder though, if it was true, he quite possibly could have some sort of fixation about it. The person who posted on casebook mentioned the use of leaves for the 'plugging.' I can't seem to find anyone else who's seen that mentioned anywhere.

[Nemo]

I just had a look at that thread Debra and I think there is a lot of useful info given, including a possibly strong naval link again

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-132.html

In real life I saw a manual for a ships surgeon / doctor for sale and it was accompanied by quite an extensive set of medical tools such as saws and knives

A boat or ship would have been a good place for a lot of illegal goings on really

Anything from said rat fight to illegal vivisection - perhaps certain sailors were just experts at getting rid of unwanted bodies and the people to turn to with such a problem

If some sailors were paid to make someone (a dead body) disappear for example, they would have utilised a number of methods for disposing of the "goods" after payment was made

So I suppose the disposal of the bodies may have been a completely different job to that of the murder/death itself

[Caroline Morris]

It does make you wonder though, if it was true, he quite possibly could have some sort of fixation about it. The person who posted on casebook mentioned the use of leaves for the 'plugging.' I can't seem to find anyone else who's seen that mentioned anywhere.

Hi Debs,

I think it would only matter that Shawcross claimed his mother had done that to him. That in itself would tend to indicate a fixation on his part with objects forced into the anus without consent. And he gave himself plenty of opportunities to do more than fixate about it. I don't remember seeing anything off the boards about the use of leaves, but I can't say I'd be surprised if it were true. Sometimes even the tv documentary makers have their reasons for leaving out the odd icky detail that you'd think they'd repeat before and after every ad break. :director:

I could tell you a thing of two that you'll probably never see in print about what Sally Anne Bowman's killer did to her body. But I couldn't possibly reveal how I came to hear about it - and it's only hearsay anyway.

Love,

Caz
X

[SirRobertAnderson]

I could tell you a thing of two that you'll probably never see in print about what Sally Anne Bowman's killer did to her body. But I couldn't possibly reveal how I came to hear about it - and it's only hearsay anyway.

I can hazard a guess given that her murderer was a chef.

Talk about Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares.....

[Nemo]

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/morning_advertiser/18881013.html

Here's an interesting story - for that's what it is - involving a physiologist policeman aiding and abetting body snatcher type vivisectionists / anatomists

THE WHITECHAPEL MYSTERY
"SOLVED."
{FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.}
PARIS, THURSDAY NIGHT.

A few days ago, the Paris, which passes for one of the most respectable of the evening newspapers, published in its second edition a complete and circumstantial narrative of "arrests and horrible details," purporting to have been telegraphed from London. The account filled a couple of columns, displayed in the most conspicuous portion of the journal. Under the headline of "Les Crimes de Londres," ran the following rapid summary of the news received ostensibly through the telegraph wire:-"Arrest of the Murderers-A difficult capture-Horrible details-The vengeance of the filles-Courage of a Newspaper Reporter-A strange fraternity-The prisoners questioned-A full avowal!"

Whether the entire story was a "mystification" concocted deliberately in the offices of the Paris itself, or whether, in good faith, the Paris had fallen a victim to the ingenuity of some painstaking but sinister wag, the explanation of the East-end mystery was presented in a matter-of-fact and plausible manner not ill-calculated to deceive. It may happen that before these lines can appear in print some fresh incident in connexion with the mysterious Whitechapel tragedies may have anew engrossed the public attention. However this should turn out, it may not be uninteresting to your readers to hear something of the mode by which the secret of the "Crimes de Londres" was discovered, according to the recent two-column "special" of the Paris.

Telegrams reaching us from London, began the article in question, cast a complete and unexpected light upon the strange crimes committed in that metropolis within the last few days. "Not only has the guilty man been discovered; he has volunteered the most detailed confession of his crime, and he has done this with a cynicism which will astonish our readers. When we say the 'guilty man,' however, we are not quite exact. It would be more accurate to say that an arrest has been made of the whole of the persons who are guilty. In point of fact, we find ourselves in presence of an extraordinary band of miscreants-an organisation such as may be encountered only in the country where mysticism and cruelty abide still so curiously together." England is this odd abode of mysticism and cruelty. For other information as to the distracted condition of Londoners in general, here are two or three graphic notes for the instruction of your readers:-"The London police have been literally worn out, since the earlier of these events, last month. The coroners have given up all pretence of pronouncing any rational judgment. The population has been kept in a state of terror; and no more lamentable spectacle can be imagined than that of the Whitechapel street-walkers herding at the corners of wretched lanes and alleys, and whispering to one another their horrified impressions of these crimes. Not one of these women dared to venture out alone; but, as will be seen from our account of the arrest, the precautions which they thus observed were altogether superfluous."

First of all, the Paris rendered homage to "an intrepid confrere of the English Press, Mr. H.P. Tucker, a reporter on the staff of a daily newspaper." Mr. Tucker was the sole person to suspect the system upon which the murders had been carried out, and, employing a sagacity, a courage, and a presence of mind which are "probably not at this moment the apanage of the British police," had single-handed brought about the apprehension of the criminals. Rejecting tres-dèdaigneusment the old-fashioned device of a personal disguise-a device which would only serve to arouse suspicion-Mr. Tucker, when setting forth upon his daring mission, had been attired in an ordinary out-door costume, and had provided himself with no weapons but a revolver and a whistle au son strident.

Mr. Tucker was tranquilly pacing along a small deserted thoroughfare, Samuel-street, which adjoins Berner-street, where one of the dead bodies was discovered, when-and all this was announced by the journal in question as having occurred "last night"-his attention was suddenly attracted towards a vehicle which turned into Samuel-street from the main thoroughfare at the extremity. The vehicle advanced with a deliberate and, "èn quelque sorte, scrutinizing movement." It seemed to the solitary pedestrian in Samuel-street that the driver restrained every step made by his horse until he had assured himself that neither at his right hand nor at his left was there a single person visible. "Warned by a presentiment," Mr. Tucker at once hid himself in the dark shadow of an archway. What he then witnessed proved to be more singular than the suspicious circumstances that had gone before. The figure of a police-constable turned into the street from the opposite extremity, and this apparent police-constable, advancing cautiously towards the vehicle, examined the street on both sides exactly as the driver had done, and presently, having gone by the narrow court in which Mr. Tucker had sought concealment, launched a mysterious signal to the driver of the mysterious cab. Mr. Tucker had retreated on tiptoe to the far-end of the court, in order to escape observation by the mysterious man of the police. It was on returning to his post that he saw, with a stupefaction which may be imagined, but also with a joy bien professionelle, the "police-constable make to the coachman a mysterious sign." The vehicle stopped. Two persons alighted. They were carrying an object which, in its outline, resembled a man's figure, and which appeared to weigh somewhat heavily. Mr. Tucker felt convinced that the individuals before him were, if not the actual assassins, the principal accomplices. He had detected them en flagrant dèlit, and, grasping the revolver with which he had armed himself, he advanced resolutely towards the group.

"What are you doing there?" demanded Mr. Tucker, d'un ton impérieuz. "Damn you" (sic) was the reply, in a hoarse and menacing voice. "This does not concern you; and if you want to be let alone, you had better not interfere! You had better mind your own business." The two men deposited their burden on the ground, and precipitately re-entered the vehicle; the constable jumping at the same moment on the box, and the coachman preparing to drive off. But the reporter seized the horse's head, and promptly blew the strident whistle. Then might have been witnessed one of the most extraordinary scenes that have taken place for a long time past in the streets of London. From all directions rushed a frantic troop of street-walkers, young, old, wrinkled, weather-beaten, disheveled, in rags-a dread multiplication of the witches in "Macbeth." They screamed with fright, they yelled for vengeance, they hung on to the shafts and wheels of the mysterious carriage, they took the horse by storm, and, but for Mr. Tucker, they would have lynched every man-jack of the four unknowns, who, pale as death, submitted with chattering teeth. Mr. Tucker interposed. "Mesdames," said he, addressing the clamorous nymphs with la plus parfaite politesse-"I beg you to simply render me the service of guarding these gentlemen until the arrival of the police. If you kill these gentlemen, you will be destroying the means by which we arrive at a solution of these recent unexplained crimes. For adequate punishment to be meted out to the offenders, you may safely rely upon the justice of her Majesty." Hereupon a strong force of the police marched to the spot. The captives were at once led before Mr. Baxter, who, as coroner, had been sitting en permanence for several days.

The first of the prisoners to be interrogated by Mr. Baxter was the police-constable. The latter turned out to be no counterfeit member of the force. He was P.C. Rackett, with a number and a division. How did he account for his nocturnal adventure, as related by Mr. Tucker? "It is impossible for me to respond to your honour," said P.C. Rackett. From the driver of the vehicle the coroner could elicit no answer but a shrug of the shoulders. The third of the four personages was une sorte de brute, with the demeanour and the costume of an East-end dock labourer. This man underwent a most gruesome mental conflict before he could be induced to proffer any sort of answer to the questions addressed to him. He doubled up his fists, and his face empurpled. All further difficulty, however, was removed by the sudden action of the fourth amongst the prisoners. "Bunce, Murphy, and Rackett," said he, naming his confederates. "I propose to relate everything to the hon. magistrate before us." He who spoke thus was a young man-certainly not more than twenty-five years of age-blond and pale, with thin, compressed lips, and clear blue eyes of a remarkable fixity of expressions. His manner was characterized by the greatest distinction. "My name is Robinson," declared this finished type of the English elegant-"Jack Robinson. I am a surgéon and a doctor of medicine. I admit that I am one of the principal authors of the occurrences which you call crime; and I admit, also, that it was I who wrote the famous letter signed 'Jack the Ripper!' I regret the jest; but am I to be blamed for it? The joke is but a souvenir of the amphitheatre facéties in which the gravest of our savants will sometimes indulge."

Having perused up to this point the laborious version furnished by the Paris "telegrams," the reader would scarcely expect, perhaps, to be informed that it was no less a personage than Mr. Tucker, who dispatched the entire set of the telegrams.' Such, nevertheless, is the announcement of the Paris; and we are left to regret that, for its own sake, the journal was not the victim of a hoax-we are left to conclude that the foregoing amounts to nothing but a ponderous pleasantry in the most admirable taste. To sum up the theory: Robinson was supposed to be a Malthusian monomaniac, forgetful of the fact that this simple soustraction d'un element involved the loss of life. The subjects were enticed into a private house, and there gagged and murdered. They were then transported by means of the vehicle to any quarter which might be considered suitable. The policeman was supposed to be an amateur physiologist, gained over by money. As for the other two, they were heavily bribed to "recruit the young persons who were to serve as subjects." Dr. Robinson wound up his declaration before the coroner by asking for a Government appointment in the colonies. Two of his sentences, however, may be quoted textually for what they are worth:-"Let me point out the very slight sagacity which has been exhibited by your police. To undertake our operations in the open street we should have been simpletons indeed!"

It is interesting to note that the French, whom inhabit the country that undoubtedly sparked a renaissance of occult and mystical thought, and was home to Claude Bernard, the father of vivisection, seemed to regard Britain as a place where mysticism and cruelty abide strongly together !

All articles in this edition of the Morning Advertiser are worth a read over on Casebook - It contains a story of an 18 year old unfortunate from Flower and Dean St who was party to robbing a foreigner and was found to have previously been up for trial twice for cutting and wounding

There is also a mystery as to why a named suspect was arrested and remanded in Belfast being under suspicion for the Whitechapel Murders...

[Nemo]

There is also mention on that same page (Morning Advertiser 13th Oct 1888) of Sergeant-Major Cutbush of the Fusiliers

Is he related to Thomas?

It's just that this story may be in some way connected as it relates to a letter of 3rd October which came from a Fusilier...

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-lpresponses.html

Under the heading of human vivisection several correspondents echoed Coroner Wynne E. Baxter's theory by speculating that a fanatic pathologist or surgeon was cutting up women in order to study their genitalia, especially the uterus. Thus an imaginative major in the Royal Fusiliers, Charles Latham, opined that a well-to-do medical student was experimenting with female genitalia in a state of sexual arousal. In loving detail he explained how the killer had grown "mad enough" - although sane in all other respects - to procure the desired organ "under a condition of activity and excitement." With knife in hand along with a bottle of spirits and a damp sponge he would stalk his victim and take her to a dark spot for "an immoral purpose." After cutting her throat while "actually having connection," he would rip open her stomach, remove the womb, and place it in the bottle so that he could study it in his secret laboratory in Whitechapel (Oct. 3).


It's also the second time I have seen the mention of a sponge. There is a Ripper letter which uses the phrase "up goes the sponge" which I took to refer to a hanging in some form (not anal plugging - lol)

That's an assumption as I was thinking of the crucifixion in regard to the sponge

[Nemo]

The letter is the one with the artistic drawing of a man's head which is labelled as a photo of Jack the Ripper and a phrase that reads...

"10 more and up goes the sponge"

What action do you think the writer is indicating by that expression?

(Letter is dated to 12th November 1888)

[Debra Arif]

Is it a similar phrase to 'throwing in the towel?' ie packing it all in??

[Nemo]

Could be Debra - I'm honestly not allying it to the *you know what*

I was just wondering if anyone has heard the expression before and in what context

[Nemo]

Hi Debra

After a short search it does appear to have been used extensively to mean "That's it!" as in "It's ended" or "It's over"

Thanks anyway

[Debra Arif]

I avoided mentioning the 'you know what, ' nemo, I don't want people to think I have an obsession :)

Anyway, I think it's something similar to what I said going by a book review in the Pall Mall gazette in 1865 I just saw.

The review is of a book by Albert Smith called "broken harness" and the author is criticised for his excessive use of slang terms and 'cockney smartness' of which the phrase "up goes the sponge and no mistake" is used as one such example, and is said to be used in the context of "When a gentleman or lady abandons any undertaking"

[Debra Arif]

posted before I saw your last post nemo

[Nemo]

No problem Deb ;)
Thanks again anyway

[Nemo]

Hi Debra

I'm not sure if you've seen this before. It's from the 1850's

A case occurred about four years ago which illustrates the functional
character of the descending bowel. I was called to counsel with Dr. M.
The woman had been sick, as they supposed dangerously, about three
days. She had most violent periodic pains in the line of the descending
bowel. Dr. M. had bled, cupped and given her physic without relief.

The latter they said operated well. She told me that she had, at times,
got relief from change of position, yet the pains would return. She had
none in the transverse colon or in the small intestines and altho' she was
free from tenesmus and dysuria, I suggested an examination. I could not
reach the os-tincae with the finger, but on passing the finger up the rec-
tum I found that the uterus had fallen directly back and was so firmly
pressed against the sacrum that I was not able to move it.

I prepared from cloth dipped in melted wax, two bougies, one I passed into the vagina the other into the rectum. After raising the hips these were passed up- ward, and I removed the uterus from its impacted state. The patient was then well. While present I noticed the peculiar parturient character of the pains in their periodicity. There had been no tenesmus for the fixed state of the rectum would not permit its being raised by the levator muscles. Had there been stricture of the rectum there would have been tenesmus and pain extending to the transverse colon and perhaps to the small intestines. In this case both the rectum and uterus were firmly fixed and the pain in the descending bowel assumed a parturient character.

I'm not sure the spelling of "bougies" is correct as the text has obviously been scanned with optical character recognition software which is not 100% reliable

[Nemo]

It's a bougie!

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=12497


"Bougie" is a French word meaning "candle." The French apparently derived the word from "Bugia," the name of a North African town that exported candles to France. Because a bougie resembles a candle, English-speaking physicians wrote it into medical lexicons to describe candle-shaped diagnostic and therapeutic instruments. It was an apt word, for such instruments originally consisted of waxed silk or cotton rolled into a cylinder. Today, the French word "bougie" can also mean "probe" and "sparkplug." Also, the English "word" bougie can sometimes be used to refer to suppositories like those inserted into the anus to treat hemorrhoids (http://www.jtrforums.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=383). Related terms include "bouginage" (also spelled "bougienage"), which refers to a procedure in which a bougie is used, and "bougie à boule," which refers to a bulb-tipped bougie.

[Debra Arif]

Excellent find Nemo, thanks for this! This is just the type of thing I am looking for in relation to the 'you know what.'

Bougies will now definitely be on my list of things to look into more closely. :)

[Debra Arif]

Nemo, can I ask you something, I'd be interested in your opinion as to what you make of Macnaghten's comment in his 'Days of my years' book, when he's discussing the Jacksons case:

"One of the last portions of the body which turned up was enveloped in a curious piece of white cloth, such as is used by certain students engaged on a particular kind of work. "

The 'bougie' in question in Elizabeth's case (a much better term :)) was said to be found in a portion of the body that was one of the last to turn up and although Macnaghten uses the term 'enveloped' in this excerpt from the book, I wondered if he was actually trying to hint at the 'bougie' and what it might point to.

[Nemo]

Hi Debra - I'm glad it may be of some help to you - it does seem quite likely to be a "bougie" really


If it is a bougie in the torso, then the "victim" has probably undergone some medical procedure


I would guess that it would be a real procedure in a hospital in which the victim died


If she died unidentified or as a pauper, her body would quite legally pass to some anatomist


If the anatomist sold-on the body or used it in some way that his superiors in the medical profession would disapprove of, then there is a need to dispose of the body later


It could be simply an anatomist teaching someone - for money probably - someone who should not be allowed to practice


I've mentioned previously that tourists in Europe could pay for a 6 week anatomy course. Maybe someone thought it lucrative enough to try in England


I am not sure if it is the case, but I would expect the body parts to be disposed of so that they would never be found - not openly thrown in a river if this were the case


I cannot really discount a vivisectionist actually murdering the victim and utilising the bougie in some way though it's probably unlikely

(I came across the bougie when I wasn't looking for it - it's in the medical journal in which Tumblety appears, together with uteri extraction procedures and the like! - it's not him is it? - lol)

[Nemo]

Hi Debra

Have you ever seen the cotton type cloth enveloping large sides of beef in the slaughterhouse?

I'm not sure of the purpose, it is usually wrapped around after the butchering - I will find out what it's for

I think the students would be anatomists off the top of my head, possibly physiologists

Sometimes physiologists are using electricity to stimulate the corpse, I wonder if the cloth would be soaked in brine so as to act as a conductor

That's all off the top of my head

I will try and find out what it is for certain

[Nemo]

PS if you look at the current "messages" thread, Howard has posted details of Randy Kraft's murders which involves the insertion of objects - including the leaves

Is this the killer that someone has mixed up with Shawcross?

[Nemo]

Deb

Wouldn't the medical examiner's of the remains know what a bougie was as soon as they saw it?

How did they describe it? As a cotton plug?

[Sam Flynn]

Wouldn't the medical examiner's of the remains know what a bougie was as soon as they saw it?
... that's right - blame it on the bougie :)

[Nemo]

Muslin on beef (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NS5GgHPuneQC&pg=RA1-PA364&lpg=RA1-PA364&dq=beef+wrapped+muslin+cloth+slaughterhouse&source=bl&ots=6R8TO7MEqG&sig=o4hnRBgnXGOahWoL2rs4FBqnktk&hl=en&ei=Pa9RS4-TCpWe4QavmciJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

The occupation listed here as a "shrouder" or "bagger" involves wrapping meat in brine soaked muslin to protect it during storage and transportation

I'll try and find a medical reference

[Nemo]

Is that the origin of the Bogie / Boogey man ? He sounds a bit frightening in that context - lol



"One of the last portions of the body which turned up was enveloped in a curious piece of white cloth, such as is used by certain students engaged on a particular kind of work. "

Deb

I'll read up a bit on the case to see if there is any other description of the curious cloth - at the moment, it seems to me very likely that he is describing antiseptically impregnated gauze which was possibly unfamiliar to him (?)

Antisepsis was quite a new practice at the time

I've seen contemporary descriptions of "carbolized gauze" ie cloth soaked in carbolic acid which is antiseptic

Because the acid evaporates, it was recommended to soak the cloth in olive oil impregnated with the acid

If expensive gauze was not available, jute, cotton or muslin was recommended as (poor) substitutes

A major inference would be that the cloth would only really be applied to a living person and larger pieces of cloth (rather than a bandage) would be used on the joint / limb after amputation - so he is possibly referring to anatomy / medical students again who would undoubtedly be practicing amputation procedure and methods of tying the bandage etc

Here's a mention of carbolised gauze from 1885...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2255841/pdf/brmedj04767-0014a.pdf

If that is the case, he seems a bit loathe to mention "medical" students, preferring to refer to them as "certain" students

[Nemo]

Hi Deb

I hope you don't mind me posting these from your dissertation

The right thigh was also found the same day in the garden of Sir Percy Shelley's Chelsea house, which was being rented out to another occupier at the time. It was very much decomposed and wrapped in some more portions of the now familiar Ulster coat as well as what appeared to be the coarse fabric pocket of an apron, similar to those used by meat or fish salesman or costermongers.



Although Macnaghten uses the term 'enveloped' in reference to this white cloth, it may be a direct reference to the find in the bony pelvis as he uses the word 'curious' to describe it. The pelvis was among the last parts of the body to be found and there was also the press reports suggesting this find was significant in pointing to the type of occupation the murderer may have engaged in, as Macnaghten also hints at. No other parts of the body found can be described as being wrapped in anything out of the ordinary, although there was one other wrapping used that could have hinted at the occupation of the murderer, this was the right thigh, found wrapped in the pocket of a costermonger's apron .

It would fit the facts if that piece of cloth, described as what APPEARED to be the coarse fabric pocket of an apron - was in fact the "pocket" formed by a cloth such as jute or muslin etc wrapping an amputated limb

It's not nice to think about but the killer could have been a bit of a mad vivisectionist, whose first action on her body (either anaesthatised or simple tied down - in which case her vocal chords may have been cut) was to amputate a leg at the thigh and actually bandage up the limb (to keep her alive) - upon which she may have died

The operator continued to "practice" his craft by removing the baby and then the pelvic organs etc

The first parcel found contained what would be the unwanted flesh from this one operation - ie the abdominal flaps and other flesh as well as the uterus etc

I suspect the foetus in the pickle jar was also produced at this moment

There appears to be a number of separate operations carried out on her

If it wasn't for the bougie, I would have said that she could have been cut up outdoors with suitable knives and saws - the killer utilised her own clothes to wrap and dispose of the parts, as if there was nothing else at hand

However, sheets and bedding also were used so I suspect this person had a room or house set up as a veritable operating room - a student den maybe

If it is a bougie, I think that would indicate medical knowledge and he possibly had a candle at hand to wax the bougie

The "skill" used in the operative parts seems separate to or at least a little more focussed than that of the quick dismemberment of some of the joints

She appears to have been transformed into so much rubbish from experimental surgery by a reasonably incompetent student surgeon

[Debra Arif]

Flippin' heck, you've been busy, Nemo! :)
Thanks for all the information you've supplied so far. I won't get a chance to read through it all properly and respond until tomorrow or maybe Monday, but some interesting stuff there by the looks of it.
Thanks.
Debs

[Nemo]

I've only skimmed over it Deb

I keep promising that I'll catch up on the details of the Torso "murders"

I'll do you the courtesy of reading up on them a bit - all the interesting stuff comes from you anyway really - I'll probably find a couple of questions for you if you don't mind

Just studying the Elizabeth Jackson dismemberment would bring up some major pointers to certain aspects of both the Ripper and the torsos I think

You don't usually get a body cut into that many pieces and dispersed

The reason for cutting up is not just to destroy the identity either, as the scar was left, and only hands and head are usually removed for this purpose

To conveniently dispose of a torso you would want to keep the abdomen intact with the organs inside

I don't think her injuries are much of a mystery if you consider of few "way-out" sounding scenarios

(That's the piece of flesh connected with the Frankenstein guy! I thought it was a hand - This piece was decomposed. I wonder if generally people knew of his Frankenstein connection and threw meat in his garden for a laugh-Someone might have found that thigh and had the idea. Is there any real message there if it was thrown there by the killer of Elizabeth Jackson? There might be if he was a bit of an anatomist freak)

[Nemo]

Just to clarify for some readers...

An anatomist is interested in the structure of the body and would be interested in dissecting a body into it's constituent parts - he would work with corpses and dissect out the digestive tract for example

A physiologist is interesting in how things work in the body and would be interested in studying events and functions in the living animal such as digestion in action etc

A vivisectionist would almost certainly be a physiologist who is prepared to open up a living animal and observe digestion in action - often causing death in the subject for the sake of experiment


Within these there are obviously the free-lance people in the Victorian era, not connected to the medical profession but prepared to carry out vivisection and anatomy for example - sometimes for pure entertainment in the guise of "education"


(..and within these there could well be the mind-set of a gruesome serial killer IMO)

[Nemo]

Here's an 11 part treatise on the use of bougies as suppositories, with many varied medicinal recipes

http://chestofbooks.com/health/materia-medica-drugs/Prescription/Suppositories-Bougies-And-Pessaries.html

Bougies could be used for opening a bodily orifice to enable internal observation / examination. They can also be used to facilitate the insertion of other instruments

As a suppository they can be used to administer various medicines, for venereal disease, problems with the uterus and the like

Cloth bougies are often used after rectal surgery

They can be used to administer anaesthetics and antiseptics

Cloth bougies have a high probability of being home-made either to save money or to be used in the case of an emergency

Cloth bougies are often used to wrap a medicine in (which would otherwise be moulded into shape and made out of lard / wax and the like) to enable any unused medicine to be removed later

The bougie can also be used to supply nutritional supplements to the patient

Most of the recipes are of a constituency that I think would be evident to the medical examiners in the Jackson case

Obviously she may have been under medical treatment before she was killed, her killer not being aware of the presence of the bougie in the body

[Debra Arif]

Hi Nemo, Just a quick one,

I found that bougies were also used in abortion practices as well, although I've only seen one reference to them being used anally for this specific purpose.

It sounds sensible that the poor would use the home made versions for their ailments, I did once say that the plug could have been a long forgotten Victorian remedy for constipation...guess I could have been nearer than I thought on that!

I also read that cloth or linen squares where often rolled up and inserted into the anus to facilitate the occassional use of a bougie for medical reasons, usually bowel problems like you've mentioned ( the one found in Elizabeth's body was a linen piece, similar to a handkerchief and was rolled up) this specific technique seems to be called tenting...sponges were also used in the same way, and the actual tenting can remain in place for long periods, (removing for the obvious of course :)).

To be honest, any of these three scenarios could apply to Elizabeth don't you think?

She was pregnant and it was known that Elizabeth had talked of getting rid of the child. People unconnected with either midwifery or the medical profession would also have been familiar with the techniques used by professionals, and 'legitimate' rather than 'legal' abortion did exist as this technique was used by professionals, in conjuction with other methods, it could also have been a technique copied by anyone and wouldn't necessarily show medical experteise.

Elizabeth was destitute and homeless and had no money for medical attention so it's also likely that any treatment she was having could have been of the self administered kind. Pregnancy can often bring on bowel problems so this could have been a homemade bougie. But also, Elizabeth's whereabouts sometime prior to her death was unaccounted for, and it's possible she may have been in an infirmary somewhere. The tenting technique may have come into play in this scenario.

[Nemo]

Hi Debra

That all sounds logical to me

I thought that it's a shame a bougie wasn't used for a specific ailment - there's so many to choose from

Given the circumstances and the evidence and contemporary opinions, I would suspect that bougie to have been used to administer abortificant medication - possibly homemade

That might imply some back street doctor kind of character doing operations on the cheap

It still applies that if he decided to dismember her dead body quite soon after death, and he started at the thigh, it may have bled profusely. Using his basic medical "training", he may have bandaged the wound with gauze (or similar) in a manner akin to the anatomical students, producing the pocket of "curious cloth"

It's only a hunch though really and as you say, there are a number of other possibilities

Interesting though...

I wonder how many back street surgeons were not known to the authorities by their very nature

[Nemo]

Wouldn't the most likely method of disposal of the parts in the river be by dropping them from a boat?

It seems a lot of effort to travel to each location via the streets

The boat would have to be quite slow moving so it would be hand powered by oars or by sail possibly

Some type of river scavenger?

It would also give a tenuous motive for putting the parts in the river as the miscreant might like to think of his fellow scavengers finding the body parts

[Nemo]

I came across a press report recently that says a message was left in the arches that said "John Cleary is a fool" and states that this message and the story of "Cleary" both occurred before the torso was found

[Debra Arif]

Nemo, I think Cleary saw Ellen Bisney being taken away after having an epileptic fit in Backchurch Lane...and the rest is history
I think the most interesting bit of the Pinchin Street toros murder was the 'Jew tailor' standing on the street corner..what does a 'Jew tailor' look like and why would he be hanging about at that time?....are the questions I ask myself.

[Nemo]

Hi Debra

Is that why the reporters were specific about the time do you think?

Didn't Cleary approach the reporters with his story at 11.20pm on the 7th, while the woman was found at 12.15am on the 8th?

I came across that Jew tailor before - the obvious suspect there might be Klosowski - a well dressed Jew?

As you say, bit of a mystery as to why he was hanging about

[Debra Arif]

Hi Nemo,
I see what you are saying about the timing now.
Cleary/Arnold reported the murder to the New York Herald reporters at about 1am on the morning of 8th Sept. He claimed he had been told about the murder by a constable in the area at about 11.20pm, which is before the time Ellen Bisney was said to have been picked up of about 12.15am on the morning of the 8th.
He later changed his story to say that he had been told by an ex policeman, and then he changed it again to say the informant was a soldier, and he gave the description of someone who was thought to be a commissionaire.
I did once note the time that Ellen Bisney was admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary from the online records but I can't find it at the moment. I'll have another look.

Edit: Just found it, Ellen Bisney (46) was admitted to the Whitechapl Infirmary on Sunday 8th Sept. at 12.40am

[How Brown]

Debs, Neems...

Look for a thread with Cleary related material under "Witnesses" in about a half hour.

[Nemo]

Thanks for that Debra

It seems like another amazing coincidence for him to describe a horrible murder only for the torso to be found a few days later

He was off on the location bit I suppose

It was put forward that Cleary exaggerated the story in order to gain some reward

This seems unlikely to me as obviously the reporters would check on the story before payment was made, and also he gave a false name and address and was difficult to locate later

He might have expected a few pennies just for giving a tip I suppose, but why lie about how he knew?

If he knew for definite that a woman had been found and taken away on a stretcher, or anything near that, then why not say so?

If someone had told him the story, then he could have given a false description so that man would not be found and rewarded

And why would he approach the New York Herald guys? Is it because their offices were the closest? Or did he expect the Americans to take his story at face value? Or was it just the newspaper he was involved with through his employment as a vendor?

I would agree that the woman found in Backchurch Lane is the origin of the story

I hadn't heard of the message "John Cleary is a fool" before. If it did exist, then surely this would have been written after the story appeared in the press as it was a false name

[Nemo]

A couple of updates on some points raised in this thread

Arthur Shawcross stuffed dirt and leaves into the mouth, and also the clothing of the little girl he killed and left under the bridge

Deeming was caught with a reasonable "Ripper kit" of surgical knives and....a sponge!

When you think about it, a good sized sponge would be a very handy tool for the Ripper

Being flexible, he may even have held it around the knife handle to prevent blood running onto his hand

It would also make a good item for placing an organ in for transportation as it would hopefully soak up any residual blood and prevent it dripping

When in a safe place, it could obviously be wetted and wrung out and utilised in washing himself

[Nemo]

Here's a quote from the landlady of Forbes Winslow's / Albert Bachert's mysterious lodger suspect

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/port_philip_herald/901122.html

As the murders were committed, her suspicions were increased, but she did not communicate them to anyone until the day following the discovery of the body in Pinchin street. She went to clean the bedroom as usual, when she found upon the three mats footmarks of blood, and upon one a large clot of the same substance. She then spoke of her suspicions to an official connected with the model dwellings but he evidently believing that an arrest would bring the buildings into disrepute, advised her to say nothing of the matter.

It's worth reading the full report with the view that the landlady does actually exist, but the story is greatly embellished and exaggerated

The above quote indicates to me that it was the "John Cleary" accomplice clue put forward by the New York Herald in regard to the Pinchin St torso that encouraged LFW/Bachert to claim him as their own

They did not expect Cleary to be found and thought themselves capable of linking him to the Ripper accomplice called "Dodger"

The last sentence is quite interesting also as it may indicate another reason why information about the Ripper may be held back from the police

[Debra Arif]

Hi Nemo, just going back to the original topic of vivisection, can I ask, have you come across Lawson Tait mentioned much in anti/pro vivisection articles?
I know he was anti vivisection and wrote a few pieces on the subject but he was accused in some quarters as performing abdominal and gynaecological 'experimental' surgery that was something on a parr with vivisection on live animals.
Have you come across this in your research or possibly the 'feminist's' view of Tait and his surgical methods?

[Nemo]

Hi Debra

Apologies for the late reply

I read about Tait as an anti-vivisectionist

I don't think I came across his name specifically being criticised for his surgical methods

But I did mention earlier in the thread about feminist campaigners complaining about gynaecological apparatus - almost certainly pioneered by Tait, as being a manifestation of man's domination over woman and lesser animals - tying down and operating on them as almost a direct extension of animal vivisection

Animal vivisection was forwarded as an analogy of the suppression of women's rights

There was also a sexual - sadisitic element implied rather than just the vivisection angle

I'll check back on what I was reading

[Nemo]

Here's a relevant quote Debra

http://brebisnoire.wordpress.com/a-history-of-antivivisection-from-the-1800s-to-the-present-part-i-mid-1800s-to-1914/

Political and gender-related opposition
There is ample evidence of a clear link between the nature of animal experiments and the form of oppression to which women in the Victorian era were subject. Female oppression in that era included the ideas of victimhood; animals and women as property and without the rights that derived from owning property; submission to male/human authority; parallels between the restraining and surgical devices used on animals and in the medical treatment of women, including childbirth customs and gynecological examinations; as well as the imagery in some types of Victorian pornography.

[Nemo]

Tait developed the technique of severing the fallopian tubes to treat / prevent ectopic pregnancies which were often fatal at the time

There might have been objections by the feminists to his technique being allied with the relatively new science/theory of eugenics ie enforced sterilisation, his operation being specific to the sterilisation of women

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3045302613.html

"In the 1880s the Scottish surgeon Lawson Tait initiated the operation of salpingectomy for women. Tait’s technique was introduced as a therapy for ectopic pregnancy, a potentially fatal condition that sometimes occurs when a fertilized ovum lodges unexpectedly in a fallopian tube. Removal of a section of each fallopian tube prevents any ovum from traveling to the uterus (womb), hence ruling out any future pregnancy.

Soon after Tait introduced salpingectomy, the Chicago surgeon Albert Ochsner developed the operation of vasectomy as a treatment for problems of the male prostate gland. Ochsner described how he removed a portion of the cord known as the vasdeferens, removing the route a sperm travels. He endorsed vasectomy as a surgical option that would avoid objections raised against castration.

Ochsner’s surgery was also innovative because he specifically prescribed it as a means of preventing convicted criminals from having children. Soon the operation was being recommended as a way to prevent parenthood among chronic alcoholics, sex criminals, the mentally impaired, and the poor."

[Debra Arif]

Thanks for this Nemo! I only saw Lawson Tait's name mentioned briefly in the vivisection debate and wondered what the accusations against he himself were about when he was publicly denounced vivisection.
I tend to wander off down different paths when I research anything like this and don't always manage to get back to what I was originally looking for.
I started off looking into something mentioned about 'The london Homoepathic Hospital' wherever this hospital was (and I still haven't looked into it yet) they seemed to have some sort of 'open day' on a certain day of the week when people (hopefully doctors, students, etc and not any old Joe Bloggs) could come and watch female abdominal surgery being performed, I seem to remember Lawson Tait's name being mentioned in connection with that too, but I just don't have the time to follow things up lately.

Thanks again.

[Nemo]

That's interesting Debra

If the public were admitted to witness female surgery, that ties in with what I've come across in that people attended very harrowing vivisection experiments, often for pleasure or curiosity only

There is a description of an experiment on a dog in which his intestines were removed from the body cavity

The dog was allowed to awaken upon which it tried to lick his numerous wounds (if I remember correctly the dog had also had it's ears removed among other things) and only then was it strangled

Horrific stuff really, and Joe bloggs had access to such a display of cruelty

The general consensus was that a person witnessing such sights becomes affected mentally, producing a merciless personality, capable of any atrocity

I'll try and find a specific accusation against Tait and his methods

[Nemo]

Debra - I'm not certain whether Tait was associated by the feminists with some of the horrific operations carried out to combat certain aspects of female sexuality, but I suspect it is the case, whether true or not

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09513590701708860?cookieSet=1&journalCode=gye
　
The 19th century medical attitude to normal female sexuality was cruel, with gynecologists and psychiatrists leading the way in designing operations for the cure of the serious contemporary disorders of masturbation and nymphomania.

The gynecologist Isaac Baker Brown (1811–1873) and the distinguished endocrinologist Charles Brown-Séquard (1817–1894) advocated clitoridectomy to prevent the progression to masturbatory melancholia, paralysis, blindness and even death.

Even after the public disgrace of Baker Brown in 1866–7, the operation remained respectable and widely used in other parts of Europe. This medical contempt for normal female sexual development was reflected in public and literary attitudes. Or perhaps it led and encouraged public opinion. There is virtually no novel or opera in the last half of the 19th century where the heroine with ‘a past’ survives to the end. H. G. Wells's Ann Veronica and Richard Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier, both of which appeared in 1909, broke the mould and are important milestones. In the last 50 years new research into the sociology, psychology and physiology of sexuality has provided an understanding of decreased libido and inadequate sexual response in the form of hypoactive sexual desire disorder. This is now regarded as a disorder worthy of treatment, either by various forms of counseling or by the use of hormones, particularly estrogens and testosterone.

A slightly different rendition...
　
In the past, medical attitudes to female sexuality were grotesque, reflecting the anxiety and hypocrisy of the times. In the medieval world, the population feared hunger, the devil, and women, being particularly outraged and threatened by normal female sexuality. The 19th century attitude was no better as academics confirmed the lower intellectual status of women, particularly if they ventured into education.

The medical contribution to this prejudice was shocking, with gynaecologists and psychiatrists leading the way designing operations for the cure of the apparently serious contemporary disorders of masturbation and nymphomania.

The gynaecologist, Isaac Baker Brown (1811–1873), and the distinguished endocrinologist, Charles Brown-Séquard (1817–1894) advocated clitoridectomy to prevent the progression to masturbatory melancholia, paralysis, blindness and even death.

Even after the public disgrace of Baker Brown in 1866–1867, the operation remained respectable and widely used in other parts of Europe. This medical contempt for normal female sexual development was reflected in public and literary attitudes. There is virtually no novel or opera in the last half of the 19th century where the heroine with "a past" survives to the end. The wheel has turned full circle and in the last 50 years new research into the sociology, psychology and physiology of sexuality has provided a greater understanding of decreased libido and inadequate sexual response in the form of hypoactive sexual desire disorder (HSDD). This is now regarded as a disorder worthy of treatment.

If you read the whole of this next webpage, you will come across truly horrific surgical operations such as cauterizing the clitoris of a young girl with a red hot poker with no anaesthetic

The speculum also seems to be a target of women's concern regarding decency...

http://www.brandbihar.com/english/women/History_female_sexuality.html
　
There was also the clear belief that masturbation led to a series of disasters progressing through insomnia, exhaustion, neurasthenia, epilepsy, moral insanity, insanity, convulsions, melancholia, and paralysis, to eventual coma and death.

Charles Brown-Séquard, the founder of modern endocrinology, added blindness to this list of penalties. This clinical entity was known as masturbatory melancholia or masturbatory paralysis.

Even the usually sound Lawson Tait stated in 1889 that the evils of masturbation had been greatly exaggerated, although he had seen epidemics of "this vice" in girls’ schools. If it persisted, the child should be taken into care.

The irrepressible physician Colombat d’Isere who had already shocked his contemporaries by suggesting that young women should have a tepid bath at least once a month confirmed the danger of the violent intimacies formed at boarding schools .The end result of "onanism, that execrable and fatal evil, soon destroys her beauty, impairs her health , and conducts her almost always to an early grave".

This horror of female sexuality was also shared and promoted by gynaecologists, who seemed to put white professional women on a pedestal of virtuous decency. Charles Meigs, Professor of Gynaecology in Philadelphia, wrote extensively on the purity of women and the harmful effects of the speculum on these "dear little ladies fit only for love".

The suggestion was that "modesty was preferable to diagnosis and treatment" and the speculum was a "piece of gratuitous and unprincipled indecency". Matters became worse when it was claimed that ladies of rank in France would write notes to their surgeon requesting him to call at the house and bring his speculum. As the clitoris seemed to be the cause of this potential moral decline, the treatment was clear . It had to be removed or destroyed.

An interesting aside is that Tait apparently performeed the autopsy on Isaac Baker Brown

Also Dr Kellogg trained with Tait in Birmingham

There's some interesting stuff about the origin of cornflakes and peanut butter on the next site - including an amusing story regarding Dr Kellogg putting a woman's corset on a dog and getting short thrift from his wife regarding this...

http://www.llu.edu/info/legacy/chapter14.html

[Nemo]

Many anti-vivisectionists also advocated vegetarianism

I'm wondering if this was seen as some type of threat to the livelihood of dealers in meat, slaughterers and butchers etc

[Nemo]

A particularly controversial quote from Lawson Tait...

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09612029900200220

A few gynaecologists even gave active support to men who were accused, by women, of rape, sexual assault or the sexual abuse of children. Dr Lawson Tait, a prominent early gynaecologist, claimed in a medical textbook that positive clinical evidence discounted almost all accusations of sexual interference with children; he also used his professional authority to cast doubts on most claims of
rape:

"When a full-grown healthy woman makes a charge of a completely
effected assault against one man, the charge ought to be presumed to
be false, unless the woman was first stupefied by drugs. I am perfectly
satisfied that no man can effect a felonious purpose on a woman in
possession of her senses without her consent"

[Chris G.]

A particularly controversial quote from Lawson Tait...

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09612029900200220

A few gynaecologists even gave active support to men who were accused, by women, of rape, sexual assault or the sexual abuse of children. Dr Lawson Tait, a prominent early gynaecologist, claimed in a medical textbook that positive clinical evidence discounted almost all accusations of sexual interference with children; he also used his professional authority to cast doubts on most claims of
rape:

"When a full-grown healthy woman makes a charge of a completely
effected assault against one man, the charge ought to be presumed to
be false, unless the woman was first stupefied by drugs. I am perfectly
satisfied that no man can effect a felonious purpose on a woman in
possession of her senses without her consent"

What a stupid statement by a medical expert who should have known better. Because of the usually greater physical strength of a man it's obvious that a man could rape a woman if he so wanted.

Chris

[Nemo]

Deb was asking at one time why he might have been attacked by feminists, specifically in regard to the anti-vivisection movement

With statements like that I'm surprised he was allowed to practice, or walk the street for that matter