The Missing Organs

[admin tim]

Has there ever been any discussion as to what explanation was given by the authorities in 1888 for Jack's taking of the various and sundry viscera of his victims? I don't think I recall ever seeing any.

After the Lusk letter, thoughts may have turned to cannibalism, but uteri and bladders could hardly have been considered choice cuts even in the East End.

Anyone have anything to contribute?

[How Brown]

Good idea Tim.

One idea that you and I bandied about once was the notion that he simply discarded them into a loo, trashcan...or my idea that he fed them to an animal or ditched them in the street on his way home as they served no raison d'etre other than to be simply taken from the victims.

I will look for contemporary reports in light of your question and I hope you and the Missus have a great 2010...just like your 1930 was, if you remember.

[Nemo]

I think Tim is on the right track as far as cannabilism is concerned

I think there would have been slices of flesh taken also if canabilism was the main aim

The high probability is, I think, Howards premise that they were fed to dogs/cats or just dumped

Preserving them is another option which may be signified by Chapmans rings going missing and possibly other objects from the victims that we don't know about - implying a trophy collecting killer maybe

He could have processed them in some way, either for scientific experimentation or superstitious or magical purposes ie dissecting them for microscope slides or similar

However, due to beliefs I have mentioned elswhere on other threads, He could have revelled in the warmth from the organ and possibly still think he was causing pain to the victim by manipulating it as he would have believed that the spirit of the victim would be aware of this at least until the organ cooled

(I'm expecting a witty remark from Sam in regard to Victorian hand-warmers / muffs and the like - lol)

Sounds a bit way out but I'm not making this up - honest

Overall, I think I tend toward him preserving them in some way, or chopping them up and feeding it to dogs (probably his own) or an outside possibility that he served it to other humans, possibly in a lodging house scenario just for jolly

[Big Jon]

Well in the video game I just played Jack was a Jewish butcher who used the bloody knife from the killings in his trade and mixed the meat in with that which went to his customers, as a way of getting back at his people. Do we reckon this could be at all likely?

[Nemo]

Hi Jon

I'm not sure about how likely it is but I certainly think it is a possibility

[Big Jon]

It was something that never occurred to me before. Reminded me a bit of the end of Hannibal where he gives the piece of brain to the little boy on the plane.

[How Brown]

Definite possibility Jon...and regardless of whether its in that pretty neat game or not, its as good as any.

Lets look at a brief ( Add to it if you would be so kind...) list of possibilities.

1. To preserve as a trophy. Whether it would have desiccated and eventually rotted isn't an issue. The intent of a trophy/souvenir.

2. To eat them. I think,like Chikatilo, he may have attempted to munch on a uteri....but found they weren't so easily munchable.

3. Tossed them away out of sheer disrespect to the victims.

4. Gave them to an animal

5. Into the loo with them

6. Into Uncle Shlomo's borscht on the upcoming family get together...or Aunt Mabel's Sunday stew. To include into a meal at home. Thank God for take away,eh Jonny ?

7. To process into meats to sell in a shop.

8. For an anatomical collection.

9. To fabricate soporific candles to make one invisible.

[Big Jon]

5. Into the loo with them



This may be a question I regret asking but:

What was the status of lavatories in late 1880's East End?

[admin tim]

Good heavens, man, HOW could you forget their potential use in Black Magic Rituals?

Good ideas all, but we still haven't addressed what explanations or theories the authorities of the day had in this regard. Surely this has been discussed before, but I cannot seem to locate any such thing in print.

[How Brown]

Tim:

The main theory presented in the literature, unfortunately, does refer to black magic as far as what could have happened to the organs after the killer took them away..I wanted to steer clear of that personally, but of course as I said if anyone else wished to add to the list, please do so.

Its been very difficult..actually impossible... to find anything other than that in the past and as I said, I am engaged in looking now.

I promise to try to come up with something for you.

Jon...

This may be a question I regret asking but:...

What was the status of lavatories in late 1880's East End?

Pretty shitty in the City buddy.:clap:

Seriously, I don't know that anyone in charge of maintenence of a loo would look inside one while disposing of all the yummy contents.

Anyone else ?

[admin tim]

I'm covering that aspect in my article for the Rip. It's deeper than one might think (the aspect, not the loo).

[Nemo]

I know its not a viable reason but you should mention the "organs for sale" type of thing - especially if Kelly is not considered as a Ripper killing

Also - he may have been wanting something to post to Lusk or similar

He may have had to dump the uteri out of necessity but successfully brought home a kidney

Remember, we don't know if he used some type of receptacle to carry the organs away or whether he liked to handle it in his pocket whereupon it may have had too much blood in it to escape notice

Again this may be more viable if Kelly was a copycat

[Sam Flynn]

I'm expecting a witty remark from Sam in regard to Victorian hand-warmers / muffs and the like
I'm sure there's a scene in Gone With The Wind where Vivien Leigh, perched on a carriage-seat, says to Leslie Howard, whom she spots walking on a wind-swept street: "Wha, Mister Ashley, you look mahty cold down they-ur! Wha don't you come sit besahd me and warm yow hay-unds in mah muff?"

[How Brown]

Thanks Nemo...good point about the organ for sale thing because I just came back to add that to the list as well as the soporific candles theory on the Continent. Small world. I'm so down on that idea of organs for sale that I was being subjective when I put the list together. I'm glad you weren't.

Tim:

So far...and this is just my observation...there seems to be little to choose from in the way of possibilities other than what Nemo just brought up....there are references to that and yet may not have been had Baxter not said anything at Chapman's Inquest. From that point on, there are references to organs for museums and whatnot... where there may have not been any except for Baxter.

We have D'Onston and the December 1st article plumping for black magic and the lie about the organs from prosses for special gifts which is obviously not in the Dogme, which he quoted from.

We have Baxter and the request for uteri and the Yank doctor thing.

We have the reports about the German thieves and the candles fabricated to initiate invisibility.

Anything else ?

[How Brown]

One reference ( J.R.Bennett, doctor) in the October 2nd Western Mail on the absurdity of uteri collections...so far when those two emboldened words are tossed in the mix.

[Nemo]

We have the Lusk Kidney which if true shows a reason to want a kidney - as what, a threat, or to horrify, claim notoriety

That's not unproven yet is it?

What's the consensus on the genuineness of the Lusk Kidney recently? - let's say, unproven?

Some Jewish magic sacrifice was also mentioned wasn't it? - blood sacrifice or something?

And there was also a vagina type poultice to relieve syphilis or similar by a foreigner...

I bet there's more

[How Brown]

We have the Lusk Kidney which if true shows a reason to want a kidney - as what, a threat, or to horrify, claim notoriety

That's not unproven yet is it?

What's the consensus on the genuineness of the Lusk Kidney recently? - let's say, unproven?

Some Jewish magic sacrifice was also mentioned wasn't it? - blood sacrifice or something?

And there was also a vagina type poultice to relieve syphilis or similar by a foreigner...

I bet there's more


Good ones Nemo...

[Caroline Morris]

Hi All,

Another contemporary idea for bodily bits and pieces came from the Dear Boss author, who suggested clipping ears off for the police 'just for jolly'.

I can imagine that once a victim was lying there dead, the killer found himself reluctant to take his leave of the body until forced by the circumstances - a bit like a cat playing with a bird or mouse he has just killed before his owner shoos him away.

It might have dawned on our boy that pocketing organs and suchlike was just a practical way of prolonging his playtime beyond the point where he would inevitably have to leave the playground. Another way could have been reading the next day's papers - if he was able - or joining in the street gossip. All the meaty action would have been over in a flash from his point of view, so he may have needed something that would reassure him when the adrenaline had subsided: "That was your doing, that was".

In that context, the GSG looks almost like a P.S by our reluctant schoolboy:

"Not quite ready to quit the playground yet."

Love,

Caz
X

[Chris G.]

Some Jewish magic sacrifice was also mentioned wasn't it? - blood sacrifice or something?



I think you're confusing the idea of a black magic motive behind the murders with the age-old "blood libel" alleged against the Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews#Descriptions_of_alleged_r itual_murder), which were more correctly allegations of murders supposedly carried out by the Jews as part of religious practice. I don't believe "black magic" or the occult as such would have been involved in what was being claimed against the Jews.

All the best

Chris

[Nemo]

Thanks Chris! that's correct

By "magic" I didn't mean to imply Occult though it does refer to ritual religious practices - a bit magical really

[Chris G.]

Thanks Chris! that's correct

By "magic" I didn't mean to imply Occult though it does refer to ritual religious practices - a bit magical really

Better screw that thinking cap on a bit tighter then. :rolleyes:

[Peter Davies]

I don't believe "black magic" or the occult as such would have been involved in what was being claimed against the Jews.

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I just wanted to point out that there are many Jewish practitioners of the Qabalah, which often involves experimenting with obscure magical texts. Such practices are contentious, and people often have to make their own interpretations and learn by experimenting.

[Mags]

As to what the Authorities thought was the purpose of the organ collecting-- I think it was wise of them to be reticent.

Lucky us, in our hindsight, we have all kinds of examples of kilers munching on and otherwise enjoying their souvenirs. But what was someone in 1888 to think? I would have kept it to myself too. I imagine just uttering some of the uses of bloody parts would make all my fellows take a step away from me.:twitch: