Whatever Happened To Jack The Ripper ? Cessation

[How Brown]

Many people are under the impression that the Whitechapel Murderer could not have stopped until he was either apprehended...killed...or housed in a jail or mental institution.

Some, a few to be sure, think he might well have called it quits.

Are you among that cadre ?

We don't know how many call it quits, despite the protestations of professional crime researchers, who maintain the Ripper had to continue unless one of the three previously mentioned conditions presented themselves.

Tell that to the BTK killer who terrorized Wichita,Kansas....and was only apprehended because of his incredible ego.

Could The Saucy One have had that ability to cease without the pomposity of Dennis Rader ?

Consider, if you will, the nerve of the man who committed the Hanbury Street murder....and ask yourself if nerves of steel weren't present there.

[JTRSickert]

Howard, a lot of people think that after the carnage that JTR did to Mary in her Dorset Street lodging house that all his fantasies were fulfilled and he just "burned out." I am not one of those people. The reason is because, if he had the comfort and privacy that the lodging house afforded him in all the previous homicides, the results would have been the same. He probably got interrupted in the Nichols and Stride murders, but he was able to do what he could with all of them regardless. If there was any reason he voluntarily stopped, it may have been due to the fear of getting caught, Other than that, he was arrested, moved away, or if there is justice, was murdered himself.

[Magpie]

I think that in light of BTK, the old maxim that "serial killers never stop until dead or captured" has been exploded. I'm sure there are probably others (Zodiac, Black Dahlia killer, even the Texas Phantom, the New Orleans Jazz killer and numerous others) who possibly also quite for reasons known only to them.

[Raven]

There are a few short term, acute mental illnesses which could have sparked a homicidal episode lasting a short period (similar to a "brief psychotic episode")
Although unlikely, this may give a reason why a killer in this category might stop.

[Nemo]

The pool of victims he was selecting may only have existed in Whitechapel and his crimes occurred, in the main, due to his personal circumstances such as his own poverty and having to wander the streets at night

A simple move outside the area and an increase in personal wealth and stability may be all that was required for him to stop

It's still not clear whether the mutilation was due to some psychotic (sexual?) obsession or whether the Ripper was very lucid and sane and committed the mutilations for horrific effect only

If the latter, then the effect and notoriety he had produced in the population and the press may have seemed adequate for him

I don't agree with the opinion that he would have necessarily continued to use a knife and mutilate in future murders

He may well have continued in a criminal career that did not necessarily involve killing at all

(apologies - I just saw the other thread regarding a different MO / location)

[Raven]

The pool of victims he was selecting may only have existed in Whitechapel and his crimes occurred, in the main, due to his personal circumstances such as his own poverty and having to wander the streets at night

This could be the case if you discount Kelly as a victim, as I think it doubtful she would have invited a poverty stricken, itinerant client back to her room. I think this as Kelly could afford to be slightly more picky than the other victims, being younger and having a private lodging space. Also judging by the contents of her stomach, desperation and hunger were not the driving forces behind her having a client that night.

[Nemo]

Hi Raven

I understand your point, however, he may not have been completely without money at all times, and his poverty would not prevent him from appearing possibly "shabby genteel"

It is also contentious about whether Kelly met him on the street or at her door at all

He may well have let himself in via the window etc

Others will point out that it is not proven that Kelly used her room for clients so there are a number of alternatives (as usual)

Best Regards

Nemo

[Chris G.]

Many people are under the impression that the Whitechapel Murderer could not have stopped until he was either apprehended...killed...or housed in a jail or mental institution.

Some, a few to be sure, think he might well have called it quits.

Are you among that cadre ?

We don't know how many call it quits, despite the protestations of professional crime researchers, who maintain the Ripper had to continue unless one of the three previously mentioned conditions presented themselves.

Tell that to the BTK killer who terrorized Wichita,Kansas....and was only apprehended because of his incredible ego.

Could The Saucy One have had that ability to cease without the pomposity of Dennis Rader ?

Consider, if you will, the nerve of the man who committed the Hanbury Street murder....and ask yourself if nerves of steel weren't present there.

We tend to think that the Ripper, like Dennis Rader, the BTK Killer, had a tremendous ego. But that's an impression made on us, I think, mostly because of the Jack the Ripper letters which lampoon the authorities. But most of us agree that Jack likely did not write those letters.

Could the Whitechapel murders have been more of a kind of visceral response by a person who had the need to kill? A man who did not write letters? A man who stopped killing as suddenly as he started?

Whether the killer in fact moved away and maybe killed elsewhere in a continuation of his series that goes unrecognized today might be partly looked at through the lens of the possibility that "Jack" had killed before elsewhere. The deep kneck wound committed on all the canonical victims, almost back to the vertebrae, is quite distinctive, and I would like to suggest that the killer came to Whitechapel fully formed and that he probably had killed elsewhere. For this reason, an allied thought, I would discount the Tabram murder as not being part of the series. The Tabram killing seems to have been much more of a blitz attack, a kind of fumbled affair, and lacked that signature and sure neck wound.

Chris

[Jon Simons]

I have always thought the line in the From Hell letter; "I may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you wait a while longer " as a possible clue.

Seems like the author knows the murders will soon stop.

It is obvious by the escalating injuries that the killer was on some violently insane exploration gig, beginning with the random slashes and stabs to the abdomen of Nichols, and ending, fulfilled in Millers Court.

The knife is ditched, as alluded to in the From Hell letter. Without the knife the homicidal urges are not so strong until he attacks McKenzie but he does not have the knife, and it`s not the same.

The problem for me is that I can`t really accept that the killer sent in the letter. However, it was accompanied by a kidney, and not many (if any?) of the Jack the Ripper letters were accompanied by anything.

[Sam Flynn]

It is also contentious about whether Kelly met him on the street or at her door at all. Others will point out that it is not proven that Kelly used her room for clients......those who thus argue tend to play down the fact that she is known to have brought back to her room an unidentified male from the street on the very night she died.

[How Brown]

Sammy, you said...

...those who thus argue tend to play down the fact that she is known to have brought back to her room an unidentified male from the street on the very night she died.

Shouldn't that be two gents, whether allegedly or factually, that evening ? Blotchy Faced & Astrachan ?

[Nemo]

...those who thus argue tend to play down the fact that she is known to have brought back to her room an unidentified male from the street on the very night she died.


They may well do Sam, but they also appear to have neglected the possibility that Blotchy was previously known to Kelly - under whatever circumstance - hence the song rather than a quickie

Has it ever occurred to you that "Come along, you'll be comfortable" is much more fitting to the events surrounding Blotchy? (genuine question)

[Sam Flynn]

Sammy, you said...

...those who thus argue tend to play down the fact that she is known to have brought back to her room an unidentified male from the street on the very night she died.

Shouldn't that be two gents, whether allegedly or factually, that evening ? Blotchy Faced & Astrachan ?I was sticking to the factual, How, to be on the safe side... although if there's a kernel of truth in Hutchinson's statement that, as you say, makes two gents brought in from "the street". What I feel to be important about Blotchy, specifically, is that Mrs Cox evidently didn't know him, that he was something of a physical wreck, and that he was apparently much older than Kelly. More pertinently, he seems to have been much older than Barnett and Flemming, so he doesn't much sound like another of Kelly's "boyfriends", nor even the sort of man to whom a relatively attractive 25 year-old would relate in a platonic sense.

[Nemo]

.."a friend with a pot of ale is a friend indeed.."

[Sam Flynn]

.."a friend with a pot of ale is a friend indeed.."
Indeed, but the fact remains that she brought a strange male home - a fat, middle-aged, scabby, shabby one at that.

[Nemo]

Why didn't she say "Not tonight, maybe some other night"?

Anybody would think she was desperate for money or something

[Nemo]

Wouldn't the regular sight of a guy walking somewhere, home or lodgings, with a pot of ale late at night, provide an extremely attractive target to an unfortunate, who is not necessarily prepared to offer sex?

Singing him to sleep would be a good option, perhaps to rob him also

If Mary popped down the fish shop seeking some company, money, food, the craic or whatever, she would attract the attention of the most select clients wouldn't she?

The way prostitutes work, if the client was not interested in the hag before him, she could well offer to introduce him to someone more his "standard" or at least point Mary out as a favour to her or whatever

..and I know the press is not reliable but there was at least mention that Kelly knew Blotchy previously...


Morning Advertiser (London) 14 November 1888

It is now conclusively proved that Mary Jane Kelly, having spent the latter part of Friday evening in the "Ringers," otherwise the "Britannia" public-house, at the corner of Dorset-street, returned to her home about midnight with a strange man, whose company she had previously been keeping.

[Sam Flynn]

..and I know the press is not reliable but there was at least mention that Kelly knew Blotchy previously...


Morning Advertiser (London) 14 November 1888

It is now conclusively proved that Mary Jane Kelly, having spent the latter part of Friday evening in the "Ringers," otherwise the "Britannia" public-house, at the corner of Dorset-street, returned to her home about midnight with a strange man, whose company she had previously been keeping. Thanks for the cutting, Nemo - but it doesn't say "Kelly knew Blotchy previously", however. It says that she left the pub with him, prior to which (i.e. previously that evening) she'd kept him company. Sounds to me that he and she met and had a few bevvies at Ringer's, and he ordered a "carry-out" just before closing time.

[Nemo]

I agree with that Sam

I thought there was no evidence pointing toward her meeting him in the pub though

She could have met him in the street and targetted the beer - inviting him in as you would invite someone home for a platonic coffee - just to extend the night a bit

It could be with a total stranger, yes

As pointed out previously on the boards, it does not seem like a normal prostitute - client interaction

One reason would be that she might be loathe to bring a client home, and the other is her singing to him for a while - also, no money was found in her room as far as I know

I can only think that in that case she stripped while he masturbated - perhaps because he obviously had a venereal disease. Stripping would obviously not be done on the street

She could also be trying to lull him in order to rob him surreptitiously
in some way

One alternative which often ignites instant friendship, is that he was Irish for example, possibly from her home region, upon which she may well invite him home to chat and sing and reminisce about the Old Country

[Sam Flynn]

It could be with a total stranger, yesIf it weren't, then I dare say we'd know the identity of "Blotchy" today.As pointed out previously on the boards, it does not seem like a normal prostitute - client interactionWe're not talking about "normal" prostitution - besides, buying a prostitute a few drinks before going back to her boudoir isn't unusual.
One alternative which often ignites instant friendship, is that he was Irish for example, possibly from her home region, upon which she may well invite him home to chat and sing and reminisce about the Old CountryIf Kelly's story were true, then her memories wouldn't have been particularly Irish - more Welsh - and the song she chose to sing was American. Some lonely punters will pay a prostitute just to sit and talk with them, so it's possible that Kelly was expecting this dumpy, frumpy, middle-aged guest to pay for the entertainment with more than just beer.

That being the case, why is it so hard to believe that Kelly would have brought other men, if not Blotchy, home for more carnal transactions? She was a known prostitute, and her boyfriend had left her in charge of a vacant room. When the cat's away...

[Nemo]

Agreed Sam

However, if Blotchy bought the beer specifically to take back to Kelly's room, then there is not much of a clue
in that

..but if he was already in possession of the beer, then it is likely that he was on his way home with it and had purchased it at premises near his home

In which case, it does seem strange that nobody afterwards could identify a local blotchy faced man with a carroty moustache or intimated that such a person had been seen in the area previously

There is a possibility his blotchiness was brought on by the drink itself, so that his face was not always blotchy - high blood pressure or something

I suspect he represented the ordinary client to a lot of people who more suspected Astrakhan man as being the most likely suspect for whatever reason and so neglected Blotchy as a suspect

In reference to the Kelly case, I can see a likely blackmail scenario - George Hutchinson could have easily blackmailed Blotchy whether he was the killer or not (Blotchy)

As I said previously, if Hutchinson had witnessed Mary saying to Blotchy - "You'll be comfortable" then that would fit with subsequent events regarding the sing-song

Astrakhan would have been invented to protect Blotchy from suspicion

Blotchy does not necessarily have to be the Ripper in this scenario - Hutchinson would only have to see him leaving around 1-2am

[Jon Simons]

Hello

Just sitting by an open fire would be a pleasant enough invitation. Especially at closing time.

We know Kelly was singing for a long time, and there had been fire that night.

[Sam Flynn]

Blotchy does not necessarily have to be the Ripper in this scenario
Indeed not, Neems, but that's not ultimately my point. The point is, surely, that Kelly was not averse to bringing back to her room, for whatever purpose, either a casual acquaintance or - perhaps more likely - some stranger she'd picked up in a public place. This, I'd suggest, would prove her fatal weakness.

[A.P. Wolf]

First off, Sam, I think it radically wrong to imagine that every male that visits a working prostitutes home, even late at night, is a 'client'.
That is a generalisation too far.
Secondly there is the complicated matter of Kelly's nickname: 'Ginger'.
Many have depicted, or imagined her as red-headed because of this, but this does not appear to be the case when one examines witness testimony.
I believe she earned this nickname from her habit of brewing, and drinking, ginger beer - which was powerfully alcoholic in the Victorian age - and I believe the 'blotchy' faced man visiting her that night was bringing her the new culture required for a fresh batch of ginger beer making. Hence the ginger beer bottles in her room and the metal bath under her bed.

[Nemo]

I'd agree totally with that Sam

I have seen some posters denying the possibility that a client / stranger would be invited home but I think it's probable that she did (Sam ->:doh:)

I've got other thoughts on this but they're a bit off-topic

[Nemo]

That's an excellent premise I hadn't heard before AP

[Sam Flynn]

First off, Sam, I think it radically wrong to imagine that every male that visits a working prostitutes home, even late at night, is a 'client'.
'Tis good then, AP, that I'm not one who thinks that way - at least, inasmuch as I don't believe in the stereotype that a prostitute's client will invariably seek sexual services. Some might just want a chat, or even a song.

The key point, as I said earlier, is that Kelly seems to have had no qualms in bringing apparent strangers back to her room in the middle of the night, for whatever reason.

[Chris G.]

First off, Sam, I think it radically wrong to imagine that every male that visits a working prostitutes home, even late at night, is a 'client'.
That is a generalisation too far.
Secondly there is the complicated matter of Kelly's nickname: 'Ginger'.
Many have depicted, or imagined her as red-headed because of this, but this does not appear to be the case when one examines witness testimony.
I believe she earned this nickname from her habit of brewing, and drinking, ginger beer - which was powerfully alcoholic in the Victorian age - and I believe the 'blotchy' faced man visiting her that night was bringing her the new culture required for a fresh batch of ginger beer making. Hence the ginger beer bottles in her room and the metal bath under her bed.

Hello AP

Well I don't know, AP. Your explanation for what was found in MJK's room is ingenious. But the tin bath might have been for bathing in and the blotchy faced man might have been bringing nothing more than a pail of old-fashioned beer, as per the testimony. The bottles of ginger beer might have been what everyone else has thought they were before you, just ginger beer bottles and not part of a ginger-beer moonshine operation.

It would appear to me you will have to come up with far more than theory to support adding these elements together to verify that there was an enterprise taking place in MJK's quarters other than commercial sex for sale. Good luck.

All the best

Chris

[Nemo]

Yeah - the more I thought about it, the more it sounds totally implausible

She would have just used a bucket - if she was known as "Ginger" for this reason then there would be more evidence of brewing I think

The practice did go on though and it is technically feasible if Barnett had taken equipment with him when he left

I think myself that even 1 ginger beer bottle was a good prop for her trade, in that she would drink gin from it in the street rather than the gin bottle to be more attractive to a prospective customer

She may have played on her youth in this way