Whatever Happened To Jack The Ripper ? Second Wind

[How Brown]

Thread for discussing the possibility that following a period of time from the last Whitechapel Murder...he commenced elsewhere,maybe even employing a new methodology of murder.

Thanks to Magpie for the reminder.

[Nemo]

I'm very interested in a possible change of MO

To me, there does seem to be some sort of message in his actions resulting in a woman being displayed in horrific poses on the street

This could be for a number of reasons, perhaps to mock the abilities of the police to prevent such an occurrence, perhaps an obscure comment directed at doctors or vivisectionists, perhaps just to show everyone that he was the ultimate uncatchable killer / monster

After his relative success as the Ripper, his "message" may have changed in nature

Circumstances, location, availability and type of victims, weapons available etc would all influence his MO in the future

He appears to be an expert strangler for instance, though I imagine the true Ripper to always have a knife at hand - at least to stab if not to mutilate

[Magpie]

To me, there does seem to be some sort of message in his actions resulting in a woman being displayed in horrific poses on the street

This could be for a number of reasons, perhaps to mock the abilities of the police to prevent such an occurrence, perhaps an obscure comment directed at doctors or vivisectionists, perhaps just to show everyone that he was the ultimate uncatchable killer / monster



The posing could also be necessity--since his preferred victims generally didn't allow for concealment of the crime to any degree, it may be that he decided to go to the other extreme.

[Adam Went]

Severin Klosowski, AKA George Chapman, multiple wife murderer, known to be violent, suspected by 3 different officers involved with the case, most notably the one who knew most, Fred Abberline. Anybody?

Cheers,
Adam. ;-)

[Nemo]

I think he's one of the most viable Ripper candidates Adam

Many disagree obviously

There was a newspaper article posted in which Klosowski himself said, when arrested, "You've got Jack the Ripper at last"

Now that rang a bell for me as I was sure I had seen that before in reference to SK saying it rather than Abberline, but I haven't managed to find it again

What does it say in the trial transcripts regarding his arrest?

He is a man I would regard as evil rather than insane and such a man is capable of a lot of things

I'm not sure about linking him with torsos - but why not?

He had a place to carry out such atrocities

I don't agree that a Ripper type killer wouldn't go on to kill by poison

Look at Peter Kurten who I'm sure would kill in as many ways as he could think of - mass poison, fire, knife - whatever

Carl Panzram was similar I think

We don't need precedents for this though - Chapman could have been of a unique frame of mind

[Adam Went]

Nemo:

Most people who have been on the forums for a while have seen my arguments for Chapman over and over again, but I want to make it clear that while I believe he was the man, I only believe he is the best suspect we have out of the current crop, in every respect. Of course another, more likely suspect could appear somewhere down the track, but at the moment, from what we have, he is far and away the most likely candidate, perhaps with Aaron Kosminski a very distant second.

About the newspaper article you mention, like you I've only heard of the time that Abberline supposedly said to Godley "You've caught Jack the Ripper at last" - maybe SK himself got wind of this and decided to play along?

Fred Abberline had a knowledge of the case like no other, modern or contemporary. He would have known all the little tidbits about the case that nobody else did, or which have been lost to history. For him to state that he believed Chapman was the man is a big thing - especially since it came relatively soon after the murders compared to the memoirs of other leading officers at the time. Time does fade the memory about the facts.
Obviously he couldn't have said anything about his beliefs before Chapman was on death row.

I think it's really unfortunate that he, unlike a lot of his colleagues, never published any memoirs - they would have made for a very interesting read and study.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Nemo]

I'd like to see more details of his life before he came to England

I get the feeling that he has committed some major crime(s) previously to want to distance himself so avidly from his original name of Severin Klosowski

It's more of a shame that he himself didn't offer up a full confession before the end

I've seen some excellent arguments against his candidacy, ripping apart all Abberlines reasons for suspecting him so even though Abberline's is an important opinion to consider, he could be wrong

I myself would in no way be surprised if it was proven beyond doubt that Chapman was the Ripper

If you look at how poisoners were thought of in the LVP - Cream, Maybrick and others, it is clear that poisoning was considered one of the most vile, evil and cruel crimes

Many deaths occurred through violence in the East End, though obviously the Ripper crimes took this to the extreme

Moving on to poisoning could be considered as a move to a more cruel and shocking method of dispatch than the knife - not a step down, and his poison murders would be for his own satisfaction. No need to involve the public and get the police on the hunt again

To be able to poison someone over time necessitates being close to that person in some way, so there would be a much greater chance of him being identified as the killer if murder was even suspected

The arguments against a Ripper type killer doing this is often related to the mentality of the Ripper - it often assumes he is a vicious woman hater with a sexual aspect etc These are not proven and I think a cold, calculating, sane killer could and would change his methods with ease

It might imply more reason to the Ripper killings and within that framework would be the explanation why the murders were accomplished in a small space of time and why they possibly ended with the Kelly murder - especially if SK WAS Astrakhan man and realised he might be identified

[How Brown]

Adam,Nemo:

Have either of you read the book by Mr. Begg, The Facts ?

Mr. Begg argues against the claim that Abberline told Godley that because of the following:

{ In 1930, in the introduction to his Trial of George Chapman in the Notable British Trials series, H.L.Adam, who in the acknowledgements had credited Godley's assistance, wrote that "when Godley arrested Chapman, Abberline said to his conferror, "You've got Jack The Ripper at last". Adam also reported that "Abberline closely questioned the Polish woman Lucy Baderski ( Klosowski's first wife ) about Chapman's nightly habits at the time of the murders. She said he was often out until three or four in the morning, but she could throw little light on the absences".

While it is difficult to doubt that Godley told Adam something along the lines that Adam reported, we know that Adam's story is not true.

Abberline did not say, "You've got Jack The Ripper at last" after Godley arrested Chapman because in March 1903 Abberline told a journalist for the Pall Mall Gazette, "I have been so struck with the remarkable coincidences in the two series of murders that I have not been able to think of anything else for several days past-not, in fact, since the Attorney General made his opening statement at the recent trial and traced the antecedents of Chapman before he came into this country in 1888"

In other words, Abberline's suspicions about Klosowski were aroused by the opening statements made by the attorney general. Sir Edward Carson, on the first day of the trial, Monday, March 16th, 1903 and he accordingly could not have said two months earlier anything to Godley of the kind Adam alleges.}

Page 104 from Paul Begg's " The Facts".

This is the actual PMG article found on Casebook:
Pall Mall Gazette
24 March 1903
Should Klosowski, the wretched man now lying under sentence of death for wife-poisoning, go to the scaffold without a "last dying speech and confession," a great mystery may for ever remain unsolved, but the conviction that "Chapman" and "Jack the Ripper" were one and the same person will not in the least be weakened in the mind of the man who is, perhaps, better qualified than anyone else in this country to express an opinion in this matter. We allude to Mr. F. G. Abberline, formerly Chief Detective Inspector of Scotland Yard, the official who had full charge of the criminal investigations at the time of the terrible murders in Whitechapel.
When a representative of the Pall Mall Gazette called on Mr. Abberline yesterday and asked for his views on the startling theory set up by one of the morning papers, the retired detective said: "What an extra- ordinary thing it is that you should just have called upon me now. I had just commenced, not knowing anything about the report in the newspaper, to write to the Assistant Commissioner of Police, Mr. Macnaghten, to say how strongly I was impressed with the opinion that 'Chapman' was also the author of the Whitechapel murders. Your appearance saves me the trouble. I intended to write on Friday, but a fall in the garden, injuring my hand and shoulder, prevented my doing so until today."
Mr. Abberline had already covered a page and a half of foolscap, and was surrounded with a sheaf of documents and newspaper cuttings dealing with the ghastly outrages of 1888.
"I have been so struck with the remarkable coincidences in the two series of murders," he continued, "that I have not been able to think of anything else for several days past--not, in fact, since the Attorney- General made his opening statement at the recent trial, and traced the antecedents of Chapman before he came to this country in 1888. Since then the idea has taken full possession of me, and everything fits in and dovetails so well that I cannot help feeling that this is the man we struggled so hard to capture fifteen years ago.
"My interest in the Ripper cases was especially deep. I had for fourteen years previously been an inspector of police in Whitechapel, but when the murders began I was at the Central Office at Scotland Yard. On the application of Superintendent Arnold I went back to the East End just before Annie Chapman was found mutilated, and as chief of the detective corps I gave myself up to the study of the cases. Many a time, even after we had carried our inquiries as far as we could-- and we made out no fewer than 1,600 sets of papers respecting our investigations--instead of going home when I was off duty, I used to patrol the district until four or five o'clock in the morning, and, while keeping my eyes wide open for clues of any kind, have many and many a time given those wretched, homeless women, who were Jack the Ripper's special prey, fourpence or sixpence for a shelter to get them away from the streets and out of harm's way."
"As I say," went on the criminal expert, "there are a score of things which make one believe that Chapman is the man; and you must understand that we have never believed all those stories about Jack the Ripper being dead, or that he was a lunatic, or anything of that kind. For instance, the date of the arrival in England coincides with the beginning of the series of murders in Whitechapel; there is a coincidence also in the fact that the murders ceased in London when 'Chapman' went to America, while similar murders began to be perpetrated in America after he landed there. The fact that he studied medicine and surgery in Russia before he came here is well established, and it is curious to note that the first series of murders was the work of an expert surgeon, while the recent poisoning cases were proved to be done by a man with more than an elementary knowledge of medicine. The story told by 'Chapman's' wife of the attempt to murder her with a long knife while in America is not to be ignored, but something else with regard to America is still more remarkable.
"While the coroner was investigating one of the Whitechapel murders he told the jury a very queer story. You will remember that Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon, who made the post-mortem examination, not only spoke of the skillfulness with which the knife had been used, but stated that there was overwhelming evidence to show that the criminal had so mutilated the body that he could possess himself of one of the organs. The coroner, in commenting on this, said that he had been told by the sub-curator of the pathological museum connected with one of the great medical schools that some few months before an American had called upon him and asked him to procure a number of specimens. He stated his willingness to give £20 for each. Although the strange visitor was told that his wish was impossible of fulfillment, he still urged his request. It was known that the request was repeated at another institution of a similar character in London. The coroner at the time said: 'Is it not possible that a knowledge of this demand may have inspired some abandoned wretch to possess himself of the specimens? It seems beyond belief that such inhuman wickedness could enter into the mind of any man; but, unfortunately, our criminal annals prove that every crime is possible!'
'It is a remarkable thing," Mr. Abberline pointed out, "that after the Whitechapel horrors America should have been the place where a similar kind of murder began, as though the miscreant had not fully supplied the demand of the American agent.
"There are many other things extremely remarkable. The fact that Klosowski when he came to reside in this country occupied a lodging in George Yard, Whitechapel Road, where the first murder was committed, is very curious, and the height of the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him. All agree, too, that he was a foreign- looking man,--but that, of course, helped us little in a district so full of foreigners as Whitechapel. One discrepancy only have I noted, and this is that the people who alleged that they saw Jack the Ripper at one time or another, state that he was a man about thirty- five or forty years of age. They, however, state that they only saw his back, and it is easy to misjudge age from a back view."
Altogether Mr. Abberline considers that the matter is quite beyond abstract speculation and coincidence, and believes the present situation affords an opportunity of unravelling a web of crime such as no man living can appreciate in its extent and hideousness.

[Nemo]

Yes - I've read that Howard

It could have been said at the end of the trial upon conviction also

At least there is some mistake in when it was said - I wonder if there was a mistake in who said it...

[Adam Went]

Nemo & How:

I agree that it would be interesting to know more of his earlier life. What we do know is that he had some anatomical knowledge. The idea that JTR possessed no medical skill whatsoever is frankly ridiculous, and flies in the face of everything the doctors and police stated in 1888. Also, when in London, Chapman was making his living as a barber, so was used to handling sharp instruments - could it be possible that some of the JTR victims had even been customers of his?

He is also one of the suspects that we are fortunate enough to have photographs of - now I know you can't judge a book by its cover, but he certainly looks the part.

How, yes I've heard that as well, and to be honest it's probably true that Abberline never said that. BUT, Abberline made those statements in 1903. He lived until 1929. He had 26 years to go back on what he said or change his mind, but didn't. And it's not just him who named Chapman, it was George Godley and PC Neil as well.

Cheers,
Adam.

[How Brown]

Nemo,Adam...

I wasn't trying to discourage your interest in the only named serial killer in the area other than the unnamed Ripper and the unnamed Torso killer. Far from it. I'm glad you brought it back to the fore....

I wanted to share that with you to show you the sequencing was out pf order according to what H.L.Adam presented in his book...which distorts the claim attributed to Abberline to some extent by making it appear he, Abberline, was fully aware of Chapman before he stepped inside the police station upon being arrested by Godley. It was only after hearing the A.G. that it struck him that Chapman may have been the Ripper.

[Adam Went]

How:

It's a fair point, but Abberline was hardly in a position to publicly announce his suspicious towards Chapman before he was on trial in any case. In 1903, the murders were still fresh in the minds of everybody, and so if he had named Chapman as his suspect in, say, 1895, apart from the fact that Chapman almost certainly would have been lynched, the public would have been saying "why hasn't he been questioned? why hasn't he been arrested?"

It's entirely possible that Abberline suspected Chapman all along, but didn't have the proof against him and therefore couldn't say anything. I can't imagine somebody with the brains and experience of Abberline being influenced to that extent by a trial for completely seperate crimes.

Cheers,
Adam.

[How Brown]

AW:

You said:

"and so if he had named Chapman as his suspect in, say, 1895, apart from the fact that Chapman almost certainly would have been lynched, the public would have been saying "why hasn't he been questioned? why hasn't he been arrested?"

The problem with that, big guy, is that Abberline retired from Scotland Yard in 1892, three years before Klosowski's first known murder in 1895.

[Adam Went]

How:

That's true, but clearly he maintained close links to his colleagues in the police force even after retirement. I'm afraid I don't really see how it's a problem?
Naturally if Abberline, or the police as a whole, didn't have the proof against Chapman, they couldn't publicly name him - in 1892, Chapman was still very much alive, well and a free man. The rise of his case in 1903 would have allowed Abberline the freedom to do this.

And, again, he had all of 26 years to recind his statements, and did not.

Cheers,
Adam.

[How Brown]

AW:

No pal, its no problem at all in relation to whether Abberline could have felt he was a viable suspect after the first murder....but that consideration would have had to materialize while Abberline was in the private investigatory field, not as a police official. It might be more of an issue as to why he would have linked a poisoner of just one woman ( the first in 1895 ) to the Whitechapel Murders if as you siggest, he may have had Klosowski in mind in 1895.

[Adam Went]

How:

Good points. Still, there's always the possibility that Abberline may have had Chapman in mind even in 1888, but had nothing to go on, and with all the other leads and investigations frantically taking place, he didn't take it any further at the time. In any case many of the original police records no longer exist, so even if Chapman had been questioned or had his house searched at some stage, there's no paperwork to say it ever actually happened. Unfortunately, that leaves just the papers to go on, and they aren't exactly reliable.

It seems we'll never know, which is why I think it's even more unfortunate that Abberline didn't publish memoirs, as they would surely have been able to shed more light on his suspicions against Chapman.

Cheers,
Adam.

[How Brown]

Dear AW:

You said:

"Still, there's always the possibility that Abberline may have had Chapman in mind even in 1888, but had nothing to go on, and with all the other leads and investigations frantically taking place, he didn't take it any further at the time."



No AW...thats impossible, since Chapman did not appear on the scene until mid 1895 which is the year he committed his first known murder by poison , the other two occurring in 1897 and 1901.

You probably meant in "1895".

[Adam Went]

Hey How:

Nope, I meant 1888. What's to say that Chapman wasn't under suspicion of the police, or atleast of Abberline in 1888, but they had no proof and therefore couldn't pursue him? Even though he wasn't a known killer at that time. So many of the police records have been lost now that even if this was the case, we might not know about it.

I admit that Abberline more than likely only became suspicious of him because of the wives he murdered, and THEN related it back to the JTR case, but I still think it's not impossible that he had Chapman in mind a lot earlier than that.

By the way, stupid question I know, but where do you stand these days? Are you still a D'Onstonite or what's the go?

Cheers,
Adam.

[How Brown]

AW:

Nope, I meant 1888. What's to say that Chapman wasn't under suspicion of the police, or atleast of Abberline in 1888, but they had no proof and therefore couldn't pursue him? Even though he wasn't a known killer at that time. So many of the police records have been lost now that even if this was the case, we might not know about it.

I have to admit that I find it hard to believe that a man who had just arrived in London in June of 1887 with no arrests ( no prior arrests that is that were mentioned during his trial in 1903 ) would stand out from the millions in London. But we'll just skip over that for the time being.

He began using the name "Chapman" in early 1895....which he would not have known. Therefore, when Godley snagged him, he was known by a different name than the one he entered Britain under 8 years prior in 1887.

By the way, stupid question I know, but where do you stand these days? Are you still a D'Onstonite or what's the go?

Yes, thats sort of an unnecessary ( not dumb ) question since his candidacy has been dismantled and our boy is in the clear. Only the fool or mischief maker will try and foist D'Onston into the frame for being the Ripper.

First, he had no known reason for being suspected. I'll fill you in on the side, as this isn't the right thread. By the way, Mike Covell, who lives in Hull, took the proper steps back in 2007 and found out first hand that the London Hospital denied access to the outside of the premises to patients. This, and this is my feeling ,was already known some time ago...but for whatever reason never mentioned. Mike, however, being an honest researcher shared that information with us, because had he not, its unlikely that at this point in time that anyone would have mentioned the fact that no one, not just D'Onston, could leave at will or at all at night from the LH.

It was a theory that might have had some steam...like some of us thought it did Adam...but it was a theory based on the misrepresentation of facts..and the omission of others.

[How Brown]

AW:

Nope, I meant 1888. What's to say that Chapman wasn't under suspicion of the police, or atleast of Abberline in 1888, but they had no proof and therefore couldn't pursue him? Even though he wasn't a known killer at that time. So many of the police records have been lost now that even if this was the case, we might not know about it.

I have to admit that I find it hard to believe that a man who had just arrived in London in June of 1887 with no arrests ( no prior arrests that is that were mentioned during his trial in 1903 ) would stand out from the millions in London. But we'll just skip over that for the time being.

He began using the name "Chapman" in early 1895....which Abberline probably would not have known. Therefore, when Godley snagged him, he was known by a different name than the one he entered Britain under 8 years prior in 1887.

By the way, stupid question I know, but where do you stand these days? Are you still a D'Onstonite or what's the go?

Yes, thats sort of an unnecessary ( not dumb ) question since his candidacy has been dismantled and our boy is in the clear. Only the fool or mischief maker will try and foist D'Onston into the frame for being the Ripper.

I'll fill you in on the side, as this isn't the right thread. By the way, Mike Covell, who lives in Hull, took the proper steps back in 2007 and found out first hand that the London Hospital denied access to the outside of the premises to patients. This, and this is my feeling ,was already known some time ago...but for whatever reason never mentioned. Mike, however, being an honest researcher shared that information with us, because had he not, its unlikely that at this point in time that anyone would have mentioned the fact that no one, not just D'Onston, could leave at will or at all at night from the LH. I think some people might overlook the fact that Mike could very well have hoarded that information until later on in time. I didn't.:thumb:

[Adam Went]

How:

A lot of suspects had little or no previous mention in police records, but still became suspects. Mainstream ones too - MJ Druitt, for example? Perhaps somebody who knew Chapman and thought he was a bit suss tipped off the police. Perhaps they discovered something during their searches in the neighbourhood. Who knows.

Again, I just find it difficult to believe that a man with Abberline's knowledge and experience of the case, second to none, would hear of the Chapman poisoning cases and decide on the spot that he was JTR, without something to back it up from the past. To state it in private to a friend or colleague, perhaps. But to state it to a newspaper is something else entirely. It's not like Chapman went and slit the throat of one of his wives and mutilated her and Abberline thought "That's a Jack the Ripper murder".

This seems to be the main argument against Abberline claiming Chapman as the Ripper, which seems odd enough in itself, but even if we do discount Abberline's statement, and we shouldn't, that still leaves Godley and Neil, 2 police officers who were directly involved with the JTR case, which is more than can be said for a lot of the suspects.

Thanks for updating me on D'Onston. Been out of action on the forums for a while as you know, so I've missed all of that....do you have another prefered suspect now then?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Sam Flynn]

There was a newspaper article posted in which Klosowski himself said, when arrested, "You've got Jack the Ripper at last"
That comment is attributed by to Abberline, not Klosowski himself. Abberline allegedly said it to Godley after hearing of Chapman's arrest, and it appears in HL Adam's book The Trial of George Chapman, and not in any contemporary newspaper as far as I'm aware.

[How Brown]

Thanks for updating me on D'Onston. Been out of action on the forums for a while as you know, so I've missed all of that....do you have another preferred suspect now then?

Yeppers...Broad Shoulders.
Based on him being the only man seen assaulting a woman on the night of the murders in the area and nothing more...yet.

[Nemo]

That comment is attributed by to Abberline, not Klosowski himself. Abberline allegedly said it to Godley after hearing of Chapman's arrest, and it appears in HL Adam's book The Trial of George Chapman, and not in any contemporary newspaper as far as I'm aware.


Correct Sam

SPE posted a non-contemporaneous press report just before the podcast on Chapman, around the end of April last year

I've tried to find it for you but the search facility and posts do not go back that far

It had a list of the main points why Chapman was the Ripper

No.1 reason was because he was supposed to have said that upon his arrest

I had either read that report previously, or it appears in another publication as I vaguely remembered it as stated

This would almost certainly have been from one of the true crime periodical / magazine publications which sometimes reproduce the press articles

The press report was probably mistaken, yes

(or was it?)

Hopefully Howard will remember and be able to pull up the post by SPE

[How Brown]

I've tried to find it for you but the search facility and posts do not go back that far

It probably won't appear if it was an attachment, Nemo. Typed posts do appear.

[Nemo]

Hi Howard

If I look at my list of previous posts, it does not go back beyond may 2009

It's the same for the text search facility and if I look at SPE's list of posts

[How Brown]

Oh boy, yet another glitch. Thanks Nemo.

I'll try to find SPE's post on Photobucket.

[Nemo]

I misread the date, sorry - it only goes back to August 2009

[Nemo]

Let me try a few things Howard - there may not be a glitch

I keep getting different results

[Nemo]

I think it's just the list of previous posts Howard

Mine only go back to August 2009

The text search seems OK

Here's a thread mentioning the article Sam...

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=6136&highlight=george+chapman

I think you were on the panel on the Rippercast programme when the quote was put to Mr Gordon who said he had never come across it before but would be very interested in seeing it