Double Event: Why go to Mitre Square?

[JTRSickert]

Hey everyone. I'm glad to see the site is back working 100%. Anyway, here's something I had time to think about for a good posting. Now, assuming that both the killer of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes are both one and the same, the question is" once fleeing from Dutfield's Yard, why go west in the direction of the City of London? I mean, if the killer was interrupted while trying to cut up Stride, I think his immediate instinct would be self-preservation, not homicide. That being said, after killing Eddowes, he heads back in the direction of Whitechapel, presumably to his dwellings. We know this by the location of the apron found in Goulston Street. Now, back to the question. After killing Stride, the killer runs towards Mitre Square, which is completely in the opposite direction of his primary comfort zone. Why didn't he head north towards Spitalfields or a little east, near Mile End Road?

Also, does anyway here think he intentionally sought out Eddowes to kill or did he just come across her while fleeing and, since he had the opportunity, he decided to take it? What does anyone here think?

[Nemo]

Hi JtR

I think there's a number of possible reasons for moving West if indeed he did

He might have worried about bloodhounds tracking him home if he lived in the East, though there is nothing really to show that his home or comfort zone was in the East really

He could just as well have lived in the West End, or had a safe house or favoured washing place in the area

There is also the possibility that the attack on Stride was significant due to the location near the Working mens club - and in some way the location at Mitre Sq near the Great Synagogue was significant in his mind (something to do with the Jews)

Of course, there's also the possibility that he knew full well that Mitre Sq would be a good place to attack

...and there's the possibility he was targetting the beats of certain policemen

It is also very contentious as to whether the direction of travel from Mitre Sq to Goulston St was his true direction of travel homeward

etc etc etc

[Howard Brown]

Dear JT:


I'm not so sure he was fleeing in the general sense anymore ( just my opinion of course).

Fleeing , in the general sense, would be the act of running or doing one's best to avoid capture for something. I don't know if thats exactly what occurred after Berner Street's murder.

For all we know, after he was interrupted ( as a Stride-as-victim adherent ), he walked to the end of the street and calmly walked west to Mitre Square. Running attracts attention more so than walking in every situation except in a track meet where its expected.

I don't believe he knew Eddowes. I believe he either ran into her as she was standing in the corner......or probably mutually accepted the dark corner of the Square to engage in coitus after a little pre-pillow talk.. We don't know which one suggested that they go into the corner. Likewise, the possibility that she was blitzed ( hand over mouth), dragged into the corner and killed is present ( at least in my view, since I don't buy into the theory that the Ripper was a slithering, sneaky, mercurial character. I see him with the balls similar to those of Paul Bunyan ).

You stated:

After killing Stride, the killer runs towards Mitre Square, which is completely in the opposite direction of his primary comfort zone. Why didn't he head north towards Spitalfields or a little east, near Mile End Road?

It depends on whether his 'comfort zone' conforms to the actual series of events. I know that sometimes we all let loose with ideas as if they are based on definite evidence, but bear with me JT....

One other thing to contemplate and this runs contrary to Mr. Begg's ( and some others, I'm sure ) perception of events....is that while its hard to accept that the apron was in the doorway before the Eddowes murder, its not entirely impossible...and if so, then we find him going in a direction that he may have lived near all along.

[JTRSickert]

Hey Howard,

Yeah, I get what you mean concerning the time-of-apron-in-doorjamb theory. I'm guessing you probably mean either dogs could have carried that away or Trevor Marriot's presumption that Eddowes used it herself as a diaper/feminine hygiene tool. While neither situation can be ruled out 100%, I happen to think that it was cut off and used by the killer, but that is just me.

Now, you're right in saying that after getting from Dutfield's Yard, the killer was not running or trying to make himself noticed by appearing to be fleeing from the scene. THe question though is, if he was looking for another victim that night, why head in a western direction when all the prostitutes seem to congregate more in the Commerical Road and Whitechapel High Street? I do, however, have a personal opinion on this matter. My own personal feeling is that Jack knew he had already murdered in the northeast part of Spitalfields (Buck's Row), the direct northern area, (Hanbury Street), and the southeast part (Dutfield's Yard), so he may have wanted to choose a spot that hadn't already been the site of a murder. There would have been less police attention there and the prostitutes would be less afraid to solicit a client since no murders occured in that part of the area yet.

[Howard Brown]

JT:

Under no circumstances do I give a nanosecond of credence to any theory such as the one where Eddowes used the apron as a sanitary application. Picture it if you would, a woman walking the streets with a ripped or half apron. Absolutely preposterous.

I'd believe the Moon is filled with little green men before I would believe that at all. Likewise, a dog or a fox moving the apron piece theories being the reason for the location of the apron is as unfathomable to me.

While neither situation can be ruled out 100%, I happen to think that it was cut off and used by the killer, but that is just me.-JT

No, JT...that happens to be everyone but the theorist who came up with that stupid notion of the apron as sanitary device or toilet paper. Stupid with a capital "S".

Now, you're right in saying that after getting from Dutfield's Yard, the killer was not running or trying to make himself noticed by appearing to be fleeing from the scene.- JT

No,JT...I'm not necessarily right, but that's what I believe. I just don't think the killer was that oblivious to how it would look for him to run right after a murder he committed nor do I think he was particularly mindful of the risks that most of us see in committing those crimes.

Prostitutes were all over the area and no one area, in my opinion, can be discounted as a feeding ground for the killer.

I remember someone pressing the theory that because Stride was killed south of Commercial Road that that was a sign of someone other than the Ripper committing her murder. I doubt that any street sign or boundaries can be eliminated from where he committed a murder....again, just my view.

[Chris G.]

Hello JT and Howard

Did he deliberately pick a location in the part of London under the control of the City Police and not the Metropolitan Police, or was it just sheer chance that the second murder of the night occurred across the border in the jurisdiction of the City Police?

C

[Howard Brown]

Dear CG:

I don't think the boundary of jurisdiction entered his mind. More likely,that the move to that area of the pond was because thats where fish were known to bite and he knew it. If not, its likely that it was just a random act.

[JTRSickert]

Chris, another thing to remember is that it was probably Eddowes herself who led him to that location. It was probably used either by her before sometime or was a well-known quiet area where some form of intercourse can take place uninterrupted. Remember what Henry Moore said about the killer, "It's not as if he has to wait his chance; they provide the chance for him."

[Chris G.]

Chris, another thing to remember is that it was probably Eddowes herself who led him to that location. It was probably used either by her before sometime or was a well-known quiet area where some form of intercourse can take place uninterrupted. Remember what Henry Moore said about the killer, "It's not as if he has to wait his chance; they provide the chance for him."

Hi JT

Well yes but likely when he met her he was probably already over the boundary in Aldgate.

C

[Howard Brown]

Remember what (Inspector) Henry Moore said about the killer, "It's not as if he has to wait his chance; they provide the chance for him."

JT:

Thats assuming that Nichols did hook up with her killer and they went through the motions of a typical liason and she wasn't just blitzed. Stride appears to have been against the idea of an encounter. So while Inspector Moore appears to be definitely closer to the mark in several murders, the possibility that in at least two ( possibly more, depending on whatever someone else's opinion is ) situations a different scenario is possible. Altogether, he's closer to the truth of the matter than not.

[Nemo]

If Stride was a Ripper victim, it might indicate that his normal method was to attack in Whitechapel and then leave the area totally - with a home in the West say

He did not complete the attack on Stride but came across Eddowes shortly after

If Stride was mutilated (and definitely a Ripper killing), then there probably wouldn't have been any incident in Mitre square and we would have all victims in a very localised area within the one police jurisdiction

If Stride wasn't a Ripper, victim, then there may have been added significance to his choice of Mitre Square to attack relative to the other crime locations

I think it would be common knowledge where the police boundaries were, both to the killer and to the unfortunates

[Adam Went]

I think it's almost certain that JTR didn't pick out the exact murder sites, the prostitutes led him there. In the case of Mitre Square, the corner in which the murder took place would have been in almost total darkness and hidden from the view of most.

Surely, assuming he was planning to kill twice, or had a thirst for more because he was interrupted in the Stride killing, he would have wanted to remove himself as far as possible from Berner Street. While the police were just starting to arrive at the Stride murder, the enclosed, dark spaces of Mitre Square allowed this to him. Goulston Street is a different story.

It's important to remember that Catherine Eddowes was killed around 1.35 - 1.40 am. The apron, along with the graffiti, wasn't discovered until almost 3 am. Even if it had been there for some time since the last policeman passed through on his beat, that would have meant Jack, bloodstained hand, clothes, knife, apron, kidney and all was roaming the streets just blocks from 2 of his murders for about an hour. This doesn't make sense.

It's possible that he threw/dropped the apron as he made his escape and the policemen who passed through before it was discovered missed it. OR, and this is the theory I believe, the killer lived in the vicinity of Goulston Street - perhaps a few blocks. He cut off the portion of the apron and used it as a carry sack for his knife, etc. He returned to his home immediately after the murder to clean up, and then, fearing he may have been seen during his escape or, more likely, that as a consequence of the 2 killings the police may search his home and discover the portion of the bloody apron, he panicked. So, having cleaned up so as not to attract any suspicion, he returned to Goulston street with the apron, and, not wanting to venture any closer, dumped it there. Whether or not he wrote the graffiti to go with it, I'm undecided. It's possible, but equally as likely that it just happened to be in the same doorway he chose to dispose of the apron.

Cheers,
Adam.