Selective Solicitation ?

[Howard Brown]

On another thread, Nemo mentioned the possibility that a number of the victims may have sought out only those clients they had previous relations with.

Up until now, I for one had only considered Stride as being someone who might have been thinking in that direction. To me, it might explain her rejection of a man on Berner Street. Could Stride have been thinking along those lines ?

We do know that ( from the literature ) that prosses on occasion went out in pairs. To what extent, we can't and will never be certain.

This sort of consciousness or consideration on the part of the women probably began after the Nichols murder. The time between Smith's brutal assault and murder to Tabram's is over 4 months. Over time the Smith murder began to fade from memory, until the Tabram murder.

Only three weeks later, Polly Nichols was murdered and this time on the street with no tangible link or connection to her killer as found in the Smith murder, who didn't die immediately. It's a little different when people are informed that a "gang" commits a crime as opposed to a silent and mysterious killer. At least in the former those engaged in solicitation will have an "idea" for whom to look out for as opposed to the anonymous mercurial assassin.

So...which woman or women from the canon ( including Mackenzie and Coles ) might have been practicing selectivity after the Nichols' murder ?

For the time being, I would speculate Stride might have. I would exclude any prior to Nichols.

How about you ?

[Adam Went]

Based on everything I have come across in relation to this topic, it seems the main reason that prostitutes kept particular "favourite" clients was down to the fact that the client liked them more than any other, and would reward this by treating the woman particularly nicely, or pay them more than your average prostitute would be able to demand on the street.

Now, we know that Annie Chapman did have 1 or 2 "favourites", but I would suggest that with all of the victims, including Tabram and except Kelly, heading into middle age and not at the peak of their beauty, their ability to have clients like this would have been somewhat diminished. Let's face it, your average client is going to prefer a young, beautiful woman over an ill, middle-aged woman who had been around the block far too many times. Look at diarist "Walter", he is a good example of this.

It is a possibility that Mary Kelly might have had clients like this, being young and supposedly quite pretty. George Hutchinson might well have been one of these, for example. But that is just pure conjecture, and while it's possible, even likely for Kelly, I would say this wouldn't have been the case for the other victims (Chapman's clients excluded).

They were in their declining years as prostitutes and would have been forced to take whatever came their way, basically....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Nemo]

Eddowes had supposedly considered gaining money from a family member which would be embarrassing to ask for - rather than prostituting herself

In the report from a journalist who stayed a night in her lodgings, all of her acquaintances professed that she was not a prostitute - Her attempt to gain money from hop-picking also points toward this I think

Kelly was in debt but did not immediately, openly prostitute herself

She was apparently in great fear of the Ripper killings - why then go with a man who was quite clearly a Ripper stereotype (Astrakhan) ?

If Hutchinson's story is correct, she didn't even solicit with him - preferring to ask "Can you lend me sixpence?" How many others would she put such a question to before considering having sex with a stranger instead?

An aspect that may be related to most of the victim's locations and possible clientele would be that directly from the Emma Smith murder, and subsequently, "High Rip" gangs were a major consideration as the perpetrators

The victims could have been going much further in their travels to avoid possible attention from such gangs, in fact or imagination, who were based around Dorset St / Flower & Dean St / Thrawl St / Osbourne Rd

In that case, who knows whether or not that was the first time Polly had ever ventured into Buck's Row?

I've often wandered around cities and if I had been murdered on a certain street, the question may be asked - "What was I doing on that street?" ...and the answer would be "Nothing in particular" and the location would have had no significance to me at all

Would the victim's fear extend to only consorting with known previous clients?

All I can say is that surely the victims and other women on the street at night would be aware of the general suspects at that moment in time, and make an effort to avoid, or at least be suspicious of, soldiers, gangs, slaughtermen, butchers, Jews, sailors, toffs, black bags etc Suspicions which might have extended to all "strangers"

[Mike Covell]

I think it's all about having a comfort zone. I have, over the years, had several friends that have either become prostitutes, or used the services of a prostitute. I have included a link to a report about one of them, who was brutally murdered some years ago.

Anyway, I was always told that prostitutes have golden rules,
Pick an area, and stick to it.
This enables the "workers" to know where help is should they need it.
Pick a time.
Some girls worked all day, other's were casual, but many had set times, this way they could tell friends what time they would be home.
Pick your clients.
Many of the girls had a set list of clients, who would either meet them at set places, call them, or pick them up on the streets.

That said there was always the "Workers" that would take risks outside of their comfort zones just to gain a little extra cash.

Here is a set of notes regarding the murder of Maria Toomey, my class mate at school.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/144_7503.htm

[Nemo]

Thanks for that insight Mike

That's a very tragic story about Maria

Risky actions by prostitutes include unprotected sex, travelling with the client to a place of their choice, attempting to rob or decieve the client etc

Most of the prostitutes I have known (socially -not professionally) would assess what they could get out of the client well before the sex act took place

For those openly soliciting, on a street where they are to be picked up by clients in cars, I think anything goes for a price and these encounters would be as brief and numerous as possible

I have known other prostitutes to ONLY visit select clients at their home on a regular basis, rather than risking observation by the law / family and friends on the street

This last aspect sometimes results in the woman travelling a short but significant distance from her home territory in order to solicit anonymously

[Howard Brown]

Rounce has a record of 15 convictions, with the last recorded on 30th October 2000.

Gee...is that all ?

Frigging democrashit is for the birds.

[Cris Malone]

Damn How,

I guess this means you don't have a "I love Pelosi" bumper sticker on your SUV , huh ? LOL.

Back on the subject at hand... Has anyone been to Nuevo Laredo, Mexico? Its just accross the Rio from Laredo Texas. They have a place called ' Boys Town" there. If there's any modern comparison to the East End of London in 1888, it has to be Nuevo Laredo.

Fun for a while, but makes you damned proud to have the USA to go home to.

Oh yea, if Al gore wants to harp on what we've ( Americans) have done to the environment, he should go down there. The Rio Grande's surface is green because of the anti-freeze that is dumped into it from Mexican service stations and the whole town smells like a septic tank... because it is .

[Adam Went]

Nemo:

The difficulty with Eddowes is that she had to make the money back of John Kelly's that she'd just blown on going out and wiping herself out to the point of finding herself in the lock up....with no other alternative but to solicit herself to make atleast some of it back, this would surely have been what she turned to.

I can conceive of no other plausible reason why she would be standing outside Mitre Square at 1.30 AM with somebody who was not her boyfriend, acting in a reasonably intimate way, according to what Lawende described.

No doubt Mary was, or had been soliciting. Especially since the funds from Joe Barnett had dried up - even after the reconciliation, he still had no money to give her. The vast majority of Kelly's neighbours and friends were prostitutes - remember her french friend that she had staying with her off and on shortly before her death?

No doubt she would have felt more comfortable doing it out of her own home....and she had to, for she was 29 shillings behind in the rent and soon to not have a home!

To me the best evidence that all these women were, or had been actively soliciting is the fact that they were on the streets, often in dismal weather, at the hours of the morning that they were, when anybody who had made enough money would have been sound asleep.....yet here they were, drunk and by themselves, tottering round the streets when Jack the Ripper was on the loose. You can bet they hadn't just gone out for a breath of fresh air....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Howard Brown]

Cris:

I have an "I heart Rommel" sticker on my Jeep...next to "Mine The Border"decal...and "Have You Hugged Your Obersturmbahnfuhrer Today ?" sticker.
Buddies of mine in Texas where I went to HS used to go down there for..."it". Some of 'em went with their Dads.
Come to think of it...you didn't come back from Boys Town with Mexican Cold Sores did you ?:gossip:

AW

One other point that those who think the ladies weren't out soliciting which is overlooked is that very few women were out by themselves at that time of night unless accompanied anyway...and in light of this, women in the East End who weren't prosses and addicted to drink and found in one doss house after the other...the odds are even less they would be found out after Nichols' murder at the end of August.
Its the primary reason behind the forging of the Lusk led Vigilance Committee...the decrease in consumers at their shops on September 10th....which is also m_w_r's (Mark Ripper's) birthday...so it all ties in.

[Adam Went]

How:

No "Hillary for President" sticker then?

Well it's interesting to note in the cases of the 5 canonicals that almost all of the witnesses are males. Who are the females? You've got Pearly Poll who was a prostitute as well, and you've got Fanny Mortimer, who was in her own home at the time....Elizabeth Long, on her way to the markets in partial daylight...don't know if Julia Venturney and Elizabeth Prater really count? Any others? That's in comparison to the dozens of male witnesses.

So yes, the vast majority were males and the simple reason for this is that unless they were soliciting as well, or going to work/market, your average women is going to be well and truly indoors at that hour of the night, especially when it's a miserable night with the weather. And especially during the hype of the JTR case, they would not be outside if they could avoid it.

Kate Eddowes would have done well to spend the rest of the night in the prison cell and then see what she could muster during the daytime...

Cheers,
Adam.

[Howard Brown]

Thats another good point AW....the number of female witnesses viz. the murders...out at those respective times of day.
Connally ( Poll) is the Anti-Witness who wasted so much of the police's time. Not one person came forward in 6 weeks ( you would think at least one would ) who could corroborate the get together with Tabram,Poll and the two chaps as provided by the woman. Not one.
Long,as some have suggested, may not have seen Chapman & her killer.
Mortimer isn't out and about.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Eddowes had supposedly considered gaining money from a family member which would be embarrassing to ask for - rather than prostituting herself



To quote PJ Harvey, "The Whores Hustle And The Hustlers Whore". It's not a matter of either/or; all these women were hustlers. If they could hit up a relative for money, they did. And then they drank. If they could do an odd job, they did. And then they drank. Rinse and repeat.

If you want to be charitable, if all else failed, they walked the streets. And then they drank. Some may have preferred turning tricks to the other hustles; others may have felt it a last resort.

Each day presented the need to hustle. That's all we will ever know for certain. I have no idea how anyone can pretend to definitively know each victim's personal preference.

Just for the record: is there anyone here that feels that none of the C-5 +Tabrum engaged in prostitution at some point in 1888 ? Or is it simply an argument of whether or not they were streetwalking/soliciting on the specific eve of their murder ?

[Cris Malone]

SRA,

How dare you be so rational. That messes up all of the complex analysis that intellectual thinkers have come up with in the past 120 some odd years. Give 'em a break.

Never mind what the first four letters of analysis spells.

[Adam Went]

How:

You could pick just about any of the murders out of the canonical 5, and that single murder would have more male witnesses that the number of female witnesses in the entire 5 murders. That's the sort of scale we're talking about here.

Cris:

You will find that usually, the simplest and most logical solution is also the correct one. There need not be a conspiracy or a cover-up at every time, as some people here and elsewhere would have you believe if they had it their way.

We would do much better in this case, IMO, if only everything was simplified much more....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Nemo]

There must have been quite a few homeless men and women who would have been abroad during the early hours

Also, I thought that the lodging houses closed after a certain time

Wouldn't Polly at 3am simply be locked out - ie no place to go to (legally) to sleep whether she had the doss money or not

It's a possibility she had been having a great time somewhere earlier and consciously chose to continue the entertainment and drinking throughout the night, rather than attending early enough at a doss house

By 3am she may have been looking for an isolated place to sleep

Similarly, Eddowes would have no money or reason to attend at the doss house - wouldn't she be looking for a place to sit / lay down for a while? Perhaps looking for something to eat/drink?

Tabram seems to be in just such a location conducive to having a kip

I don't hold with Sir Robert's "Rinse and repeat" supposition regarding these women's attitude, especially toward drink

I imagine some of the unfortunates would have drank to mentally enable them to prostitute themselves

We have 6 women here (including Tabram) who all have different attitudes toward money, drink and prostitution

They are not stereotypes and we cannot assume that they were prostituting themselves by consideration of the time they were on the street, or by what they had done previously

However, we could allow for the Ripper himself to be looking at the women as a stereotype and persuading them to prostitute themselves at that moment

ie
He sees Polly staggering around drunk in an isolated location looking for a place to sleep - he approaches her and propositions her for sex

He sees Kelly going to fetch some fish and chips - he approaches and propositions her for sex

Similarly, with Chapman and Eddowes

There is no evidence that these women were actively approaching clients or even offering themselves in any way to a passing man - especially vocally

Even Kelly wasn't vocal toward Astrakhan when he would have stood out as an ideal potential client - it was him who accosted her (with caveats)

The closest I've seen so far to point toward the fact that they were doing so, would be the vague possibility that them wearing something red would denote to a stranger that the woman was a prostitute and "up for it"

Otherwise, as pointed out previously, the only reason a stranger would consider that any of the victims were prostitutes would be in consideration of the time and location, and what they'd heard down the pub about how easy and cheap women in Whitechapel were

In "My Secret Life" by Walter and in other references, it is stated that the "loose women" were identifiable due to the powder & paint on their faces

I would have thought that in Victorian Society, some signal would be employed between prostitute and client to prevent a man getting arrested for approaching and propositioning any women who were not prostitutes

[SirRobertAnderson]

I don't hold with Sir Robert's "Rinse and repeat" supposition regarding these women's attitude, especially toward drink

I imagine some of the unfortunates would have drank to mentally enable them to prostitute themselves



These women were all alcoholics, Nemo. They worked the streets to feed their habit, and the habit overrode the fear of the Ripper.

Adam has made a very good point on another thread: virtually all the witnesses were men; "decent" women weren't out on the streets at those hours during the Terror.

I don't understand why there is this revisionist school of thought rampant on the Forums as of late. Serial killers target prostitutes precisely because they are vulnerable. These women were all known prostitutes.

Why is it so important to believe that they were out begging or waiting for Mr. Goodbar ?

[Cris Malone]

I don't understand why there is this revisionist school of thought rampant on the Forums as of late. Serial killers target prostitutes precisely because they are vulnerable. These women were all known prostitutes.

Why is it so important to believe that they were out begging or waiting for Mr. Goodbar ?

Because of the sentence in bold above Sir Robert. Eliminate the victim and you eliminate the serial killer.

[Nemo]

There is very little evidence that indicates the mental process of the Ripper. Identifying how he made the initial contact with the victims is therefore extremely important

If he was approached by these women and propositioned by them, then we might contemplate a reactive killer who has some beef about haggard prostitutes or something similar

If these women were just alone and in an isolated location, the Ripper may well have identified them in his mind as prostitutes and approached them, propositioned them, and then killed them

Alternatively, he saw the women and couldn't care less if they were prostitutes, using the proposition of sex to encourage them to go with him to a killing spot

There are other possible scenarios

Which is it you think?

I don't agree either that all these women were alcoholics - that is a specific term

Not everybody who drinks and gets drunk on a regular basis is an alcoholic

If they were alcoholics, there would be little surprise that they may spend their last pennies on drink and wander around all night without the price of the doss

The Ripper only attacked drunken alcoholics maybe? Perhaps only ones that urinate or vomit in the street?

Who knows?

One of the great maxims of the study of a serial killer is that "He kills what he sees"

[SirRobertAnderson]

I don't agree either that all these women were alcoholics - that is a specific term


If they were alcoholics, there would be little surprise that they may spend their last pennies on drink and wander around all night without the price of the doss


Which is kinda precisely what they did, Nemo. Dear Lord, Eddowes drank up her partner's BOOTS.

[Nemo]

Did she?

I thought there was a possibility she had been robbed... ;)

[Adam Went]

Those who were too poor to afford even a lodging house often found themselves going to stay in the day ward....or atleast trying to find themselves a bridge or a tunnel somewhere. Not roaming around main streets in the area.

There is no reason to believe that these women were all doing exactly the same thing they had been known to do in the past, often regularly - soliciting. I know people like to romanticize it and "oh, the was waiting for the man who was going to turn her life around" and blah blah blah, but the simple truth is that this is extremely unlikely, and the most logical solution is that they were destitute alcoholics who weren't getting any younger and were trying to make the most of themselves while they still could.

Another 5 years on the streets and they would have been reaching the point where they were too old to attract any clients....and then it was off to begging, stealing or working for a brothel. So soliciting on those nights, compared to that, probably would have seemed a good solution for them - even when JTR was lurking.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Caroline Morris]

Hi All,

The irony for me is that those who speculate that Liz Stride was left waiting alone in the darkness for her Mr Right B'Stard to show up, and was neither soliciting nor killed by the ripper, because he only ever mutilated women who were actively soliciting, can't see the perfectly good explanation for her murder staring right back at them.

If the ripper passed by, he would have assumed Liz was actively soliciting and could easily be persuaded to go with him somewhere more private, preferably improving on his previous risky backyard exploits. And if he was wrong, because she was not actively soliciting, she would have been sabotaging his immediate ripping plans.

What I cannot fathom is why anyone would think the ripper would be more likely at this point to say "Fair enough, sweetness, give my regards to lover boy when he finally gets here" and walk on by whistling, than to lose his cool and deliver a swift but deadly "I'll teach you to defy me" sweep of his knife before leaving to vent his spleen on a better bet in safer surroundings.

Are mutilating murderers incapable of sudden fits of temper if a woman doesn't behave the way they want her to?

Love,

Caz
X

[Adam Went]

Caz:

But it's the events leading up to it that would make that theory rather strange. What kind of "lover boy" would have their new, or potential partner waiting outside on a wet night at 1 AM?

More important than that is that if this was the case, Liz was already cheating on him, because she'd been seen with other men in the meantime. William Marshall saw her with a man. PC Smith saw her with a man. If James Brown wasn't mistaken, he saw her with a man. So either she was with the same man for an hour or she was with 2 or 3 different men within an hour - either way, she was not being faithful to the bloke she was waiting for.

And this being the case, there's no reason why she would turn down the company of JTR should be come along as well....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Caroline Morris]

Caz:

But it's the events leading up to it that would make that theory rather strange. What kind of "lover boy" would have their new, or potential partner waiting outside on a wet night at 1 AM?

Well exactly, Adam. And as you go on to say, if the woman was all dressed up for her special man, what was she doing earlier with at least one other man, if not three? I was merely going along with what some people choose to believe, to see why it would not allow for an even lower form of life like Jack to enter the picture and subject the poor creature to infinitely worse treatment.


More important than that is that if this was the case, Liz was already cheating on him, because she'd been seen with other men in the meantime. William Marshall saw her with a man. PC Smith saw her with a man. If James Brown wasn't mistaken, he saw her with a man. So either she was with the same man for an hour or she was with 2 or 3 different men within an hour - either way, she was not being faithful to the bloke she was waiting for.

And this being the case, there's no reason why she would turn down the company of JTR should be come along as well....


Ah, but there could be all sorts of reasons why a seasoned street walker, three weeks after Annie Chapman's horrific murder in a nearby backyard, might have turned down a particular punter. He'd only need to be a bit too cocky, too rough, too "needy" or persistent, or just a little bit odd or unpleasant, or not like her usual randy Saturday-nighter, to give off the wrong "vibes". She must have had a strategy for dealing with any unwanted advances that had worked for her in the past, such as a diplomatic white lie: "Not tonight, ducks, maybe some other night", and if all else fails stay where there were people around in the hope that it would discourage him from turning nasty.

If this was Jack and her instincts were working well for her that night, her strategy was only partly up to the task. Staying where she felt relatively safe - at the busy club entrance - may only have saved her lifeless body from the cruel attention this man would be paying to a less cautious Kate's before another hour had passed.

Maybe Jack had to change his strategy, and fast, from rough to gentle persuasion, when Liz made him realise that the old birds were getting tougher and more wary than Polly or Annie had been.

Love,

Caz
X

[A.P. Wolf]

Ah Caz, if I possessed your breath of assumption I'd take a few cachous for it. We still do not know today whether Stride was in fact the victim of a knife or not, for as I have often pointed out I was able to find a case of an 'unfortunate' from the period who was knocked down by an angry and jilted lover, and subsequently cut her own throat as she went down heavily on the upturned blade of a shovel that served as a boot scraper at the entrance to the stable premises.
You say murder, I say shite on my boot.

[Tom_Wescott]

We still do not know today whether Stride was in fact the victim of a knife or notWhy do you assume she was a victim at all? Or that she even died? The police could have been lying.

[SirRobertAnderson]

We still do not know today whether Stride was in fact the victim of a knife or not, for as I have often pointed out I was able to find a case of an 'unfortunate' from the period who was knocked down by an angry and jilted lover, and subsequently cut her own throat as she went down heavily on the upturned blade of a shovel that served as a boot scraper at the entrance to the stable premises.

I must say I love this sort of stuff, although I know I'm alone in the end zone in this.

My oldest son is on spring break and just walked by, and seeing this said "Oh no he didn't" which here in NYC is pronounced "o no he dit-ten".

[Howard Brown]

We still do not know today whether Stride was in fact the victim of a knife or not--Needless to Say

Thats absolutely absurd and taking revisionism to another planet A.P.
Stride was most certainly killed with a knife.
If the shovel had had blood on it, don't you think that would have been observed...or were doctors,as well as police,dummies ?

[A.P. Wolf]

Sir Robert, all I can say is oh yes he did; and I do thank you for the support over many years, although it may taint the paint the finish will be good.
How, the chap was originally done for manslaughter, but after evidence was given, common assault was the verdict; and it did come out in evidence that such boot scrapers were sharpened everyday, and that such boot scrapers were most often sited where traps were used.
I think I have found at least three cases where throats have been cut by boot scrapers from that period. I would suggest the odds are on my side.

[Howard Brown]

A.P....old bean....

I'm tempted to say that you or I could find 500 cases of such a case of accidental death as you suggested...but that its not applicable in the case of Stride's death.
It doesn't matter to me since I have no axe...or in this case,shovel to sharpen, by pushing for any specific suspect by maintaining she died by the result of a knife assault.
If the shovel you mention had blood on it....how likely was it that no one mentioned this shovel having blood on it ? Seriously.

[Adam Went]

Caz:

Somebody in Liz's postion could hardly be too selective about her clients, though. And anyway, she was sober and had been around a while - she was smart enough to know that if she engaged in conversation with JTR and it was just the two of them, if she refused him, he was probably just going to grab her anyway. Her best bet was to bail out of there upon seeing a particularly dodgy looking fellow approaching her, if that was how she wanted to do it, but clearly she chose not to do this. And if anything, the suggestion would be that JTR was just a normal looking, normal acting individual, as he managed not to attract suspicion to himself.

AP:

I have a theory....
What if JTR was one of those ninja warriors who could throw a knife from about 100 feet away and be able to cut the victim's throat with perfectly accurate precision?

Explains how he could escape so quickly and never got seen on the murder site by anyone.....

Or maybe JTR was really an alien who floated down in his spaceship and cut his victims with supersonic laser beams from his space craft?

Jeez, on a roll here....

Cheers,
Adam.

[A.P. Wolf]

Well, How, a boot scraper is not the most obvious suspect, and I would imagine that PC Plod carefully wiped the mud off his boots on said scraper before entering the premises, and then remarked to his pal, PC Nod: 'Right me ol mate, let's find this bleeting knife then!'
No knife was ever found was it?
The case I mentioned involved the natural assumption on behalf of the investigators that a knife had been used, but as the victim recovered from the life threatening wound she confirmed that she had been pushed down onto the scraper and that had cut her throat. If she had died as a result of the attack of the 'Midnight Boot Scraper' then it is obvious that the man who pushed her down would have been hung for murder.
For cutting the throat of an 'unfortunate' with a knife, but he had no knife, and merely pushed the girl heavily onto the ground.
Sound familiar?

[Jon Simons]

the upturned blade of a shovel that served as a boot scraper at the entrance to the stable premises.


Hi AP

We know Stride sustained her throat injury where she was found due to the pool of clotted blood next to her, therefore, one would think that the boot scraper would be somewhere in the vicinity of her neck, and duly mentioned by someone in their report.

Where is it mentioned ?

[A.P. Wolf]

On your head, mate, judging by your avatar.

[Jon Simons]

On your head, mate, judging by your avatar.

Oh. Okay. Thanks?

[Howard Brown]

Well, How, a boot scraper is not the most obvious suspect, and I would imagine that PC Plod carefully wiped the mud off his boots on said scraper before entering the premises, and then remarked to his pal, PC Nod: 'Right me ol mate, let's find this bleeting knife then!'
No knife was ever found was it?
The case I mentioned involved the natural assumption on behalf of the investigators that a knife had been used, but as the victim recovered from the life threatening wound she confirmed that she had been pushed down onto the scraper and that had cut her throat. If she had died as a result of the attack of the 'Midnight Boot Scraper' then it is obvious that the man who pushed her down would have been hung for murder.

No knife was found at any of the murder scenes A.P.


Presenting a theory that something other than a knife was used to kill Stride....because its Stride and it conflicts with the "domestic murder" theory and "its not a Ripper murder" is just a way of being at odds with the medical doctors' determinations.

[Adam Went]

Not to mention the fact that it would be very good to know how, if Liz had her throat cut when she pushed to the ground outside the gates, that she managed to hobble into the passageway to the yard, lay herself down on her back next to the wall, and die there, without so much as the smallest trail of blood leading back out onto the street, or the entire front of her clothing being drenched in such blood?

Besides all of that, everybody knows that your natural instinct when you're falling over is to put your hands out in front of you to break your fall. Liz was sober, and would have done this as well. It is therefore completely impractical to suggest that she managed to fall on a knife, or any object for that matter, that was so big and sharp that just from her fall alone, it managed to cut her throat so deeply as to completely sever her windpipe and also cut her left carotid artery, and more importantly, result in death.

It would have to be the unluckiest thing that's ever happened to anyone in all of history, and in short, it's got no chance at all. And I can't believe I've actually just wasted 10 minutes of my life that I'm never going to get back responding to such a useless argument.....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Howard Brown]

And I can't believe I've actually just wasted 10 minutes of my life that I'm never going to get back responding to such a useless argument.....

Try and do it from here sometime AW...reading such comments from someone you respect as a researcher but has taken it upon himself just to kvetch where no kvetchin' is necessary.
Just ask these rappin' rebbes....:kev::kev::kev:..A.P. is bein' a big sonofakvetch.

[Caroline Morris]

Caz:

Somebody in Liz's postion could hardly be too selective about her clients, though. And anyway, she was sober and had been around a while - she was smart enough to know that if she engaged in conversation with JTR and it was just the two of them, if she refused him, he was probably just going to grab her anyway. Her best bet was to bail out of there upon seeing a particularly dodgy looking fellow approaching her, if that was how she wanted to do it, but clearly she chose not to do this.

Hi Adam,

You may be right, but I still think she'd have been more selective than usual, considering how recently Martha, Polly and Annie had grabbed the headlines for the most horrific of reasons. Unlike Annie, Liz doesn't leave the impression that she was tired of living. She certainly wasn't sick unto death, and her instincts for self-preservation may even have kept her unusually sober that Saturday night. Sixpence could have bought her a skinful, but it seems she found the strength to resist it.

We don't know that she hadn't been pestered already by BS man and had headed for the comparative safety of the busy club after making her excuses. She wouldn't necessarily have thought he could be the murderer (and he may well not have been), but just someone worth avoiding. If he caught up with her there and assumed she was looking for customers (after giving him the cold shoulder), it would explain what Schwartz reported seeing: a drunk and resentful BS trying to manhandle her away from the entrance and the woman resisting. She could have tried to bail out and run for it, away from the safety of the club, but where to, and how far would she get if he really wanted to push his luck?

While she clearly wanted nothing to do with this man, who was shouting "Lipski" and making a thorough nuisance of himself, she didn't scream blue murder, so I doubt she truly feared for her life at this point. Similar stuff must have happened to her plenty of times and she had always handled it. But this time something very unusual happened in the interval before the pony and cart arrived - something that all her experience hadn't prepared her for. Somehow her killer (whether BS man or not) managed to turn things right round, gain the upper hand and take her completely by surprise, apparently from behind. That could suggest she didn't even know she had company at that point.

Love,

Caz
X

[SirRobertAnderson]

Similar stuff must have happened to her plenty of times and she had always handled it. But this time something very unusual happened in the interval before the pony and cart arrived - something that all her experience hadn't prepared her for. Somehow her killer (whether BS man or not) managed to turn things right round, gain the upper hand and take her completely by surprise, apparently from behind. That could suggest she didn't even know she had company at that point.

That's an interesting thought I haven't heard expressed before. Are you envisioning a scenario where Jack was hiding in the alley way and took Stride by surprise ?

[Howard Brown]

Somehow her killer (whether BS man or not) managed to turn things right round, gain the upper hand and take her completely by surprise, apparently from behind. That could suggest she didn't even know she had company at that point. -Caz


Caz:

I'm not arguing against any suggestion that the killer may have been in the Yard already at some distance away from Stride, but when you mention her being taken by surprise from behind, isn't it just as likely that she simply turned her head when the assailant approached her from the front and the assailant naturally grabbed for her hair since by grabbing her hair, she becomes easier to handle..or in this case, manhandle ?

That is a possibility that has seldom if ever been suggested,Caz...about the killer being in the Yard prior to BS Man's scrape with her. Good thinking.

[Caroline Morris]

That's an interesting thought I haven't heard expressed before. Are you envisioning a scenario where Jack was hiding in the alley way and took Stride by surprise ?

Well, Sir Robert, I'm not wedded to it as a theory. But there is no evidence that she knew her end was in sight, and I'm not sure I buy this street smart woman knowingly turning her back on any man at this point in 1888, let alone one who may have been quite drunk and abusive. But (and this is for Howard too) if she thought she'd got rid of him and imagined she was now alone in the yard after a quick dust down and a pee, she could have fancied one of her cachous and then whack - no time to let go of the packet. Could BS man not have returned to the yard unseen while she was peeing and waited in the pitch black for her to walk past him back to the entrance?

Love,

Caz
X

[SirRobertAnderson]

But (and this is for Howard too) if she thought she'd got rid of him and imagined she was now alone in the yard after a quick dust down and a pee, she could have fancied one of her cachous and then whack - no time to let go of the packet. Could BS man not have returned to the yard unseen while she was peeing and waited in the pitch black for her to walk past him back to the entrance?

Well, what would fit with this description of events is that JtR (and/or BS man)
apparently didn't use a carotid artery choke hold and instead grabbed her scarf. Which might mean that the two of them weren't "assuming the position" to be as delicate as possible about the matter. So a surprise attack may very well have been what took place.