Albert Cadosch

[Jeff Leahy]

Albert Cadosch

There’s something that has been puzzling me over the last couple of days.

That is Albert Cadosch’s statement that he heard talking in the yard. Went inside then came out again and heard something hit the fence?

Firstly the time between the two events puzzles me? What were Annie and Jack talking about? Why ‘NO’? Was this when she was killed?

And what did Cadosch hear hitting the fence? On his second trip into the yard?

The only evidence is arterial spray, which wouldn’t have made much noise. So did Cadosch hear Annie hit or grab the fence?

Or did Jack accidentally strike the fence in the confined space in which he was working? Given the timings, and the coroners suggestion that the mutilations could have taken 10-15 minutes this strikes me as more likely what Cadosch might have heard rather than Annie being murdered.

Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

Yours Jeff

[How Brown]

Jeff:

As you mentioned.... on September 19th, upon the resumation of the Chapman Inquest, Dr. Phillips mentions that he couldn't have performed the wounds under a quarter hour and if with deliberation ( as by a surgeon), "the best part of an hour".

Of all the speculative aspects of the Chapman murder, that, to me, is the most striking and extremely curious.

Take your watch, sit in a chair, and do nothing for 15 minutes. I can't understand how that area of the body would require 15 minutes to perform those listed injuries.

There's something very chilling about what Phillips claims, if in fact he was wrong about the time of death, correct about 15 minutes being necessary to perform all the wounds on Chapman, and if Cadosch was indeed nearby.

If Cadosch heard the word "No...", I would guess it did come from the back of # 29. I'd be mystified if the police didn't ask those living in #25 whether any of them were out at that time to eliminate any of them from contention as being the person who uttered the word he heard.

So...basically, yes Jeff...I'd guess that Cadosch heard the Ripper creating the noise while engaged in the crime...or him moving the body around to a position better suited for what he had in mind...which is basically the same thing. The Ripper, not Chapman, was the lone catalyst in what Cadosch heard hit the fence. Just my opinion.

[Adam Went]

There was only 3-4 minutes between the time Cadosch came out the first time and the second time. Pretty sure he'd come outside for a wee the first time. So maybe it's a fair bet that Annie and Jack were talking for a couple of minutes, then he grabbed her and either or both of them bumping against the fence in the ensuing moments as she was being lowered to the ground? Maybe she struggled and kicked the fence?

Or, alternatively, it could have been Jack bumping against the fence in his haste once the murder was already completed.....maybe it was him jumping the fence, eh, How? ;)

Cheers,
Adam.

[How Brown]

AW:

No doubt that its possible the noise was from the end of the fence or something along the lines of what you're suggesting. Good thoughts.

But if Cadosch had heard what he said he heard and it came from #29...what has always puzzled me more than the discrepancy in time of death ( Phillips' testimony vs. this Cadosch/Long time frame)...is this 15 minutes estimate by Phillips.

Doesn't it strike you as an extraordinarily long period of time ?

[gjcab09]

It seems an extraordinarily long time indeed...especially if committed by someone who dismembered/gutted animals for a living, or attended with autopsies. Both of which have been suggested at one time or another...time is money, and people who do things for a living tend to become quite proficient, and quick at their task. I like the 5 min. estimate that was given at the inquest of another victim...Eddowes, I believe, but am not certain that I'm remembering correctly.

best regards,

Rod

[Cris Malone]

I think we could cut Bagster a little slack here. No one had ever seen something like this before and Phillips was considering a methodical, deliberate action by a somewhat skilled person instead of a nutjob pumped with adrenalin. The medicos at Eddowes' inquest had the timeline on Kate's mutilations more correct and her eyelids were clipped.

It should be noted that Kate was killed in similar temperatures and her body was said to have been still quite warm when Brown arrived. Phillips detected a little warmth in Annie's body cavity... but if the witnesses were correct, the timing of the doctors' arrivals after the murders in both cases would have been similar. Though Baxter believed the witnesses, the police seemed to stick with Phillips... which would push Annie's murder back to when it was still dark.

Is it possible that all 3 of the main witnesses in Annie's case were wrong? Stranger things have happened.

[Adam Went]

How:

It is a very long period of time, especially when you consider that surely the mutilations done on Kate would have taken even longer (as GJC mentions), and yet we know that the killer had only 12 minutes between the Lawende sighting and the Watkins discovery, so he would have had probably 10 minutes absolute maximum to do the deed and escape?

Seems our dear friend Dr. Phillips was somewhat mis-informed, I'm afraid....

Cris:

But in that case, who was in the yard when Cadosch heard them, and why didn't they go to find a policeman to alert them about the body? How did John Richardson manage to miss her when he checked into the yard at around 4.45? And why did Long make the identification? Surely there's just too many coincidences.....

There's been a bit of talk on this subject before on the thread called "Chapman & Rigor"....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Cris Malone]

Hi Adam,

Yes, there's been much talk about that on the other thread, but I believe the body temperature to be more rellevant than rigor because of the uncertainties of the latter as was discussed there and the comparisons we can make in regards to the Eddowes murder as well.

I really have no opinion on this, but can not yet say the statements of the 3 witnesses in question make the time of Annie's death a certainty.

For one, the timeings of Cadosch and Long are backwards though both claimed to be certain because of the brewer's clock, in Long's case, and the Spitafields Church clock as to Cardosch. In fact, Cardosch would have stepped out into the street a minute or two after Long said she saw the couple. Someone had to be mistaken. Its possible that such is the case and they still saw or heard what they claimed, however.

Secondly, Long's description of the man is very stereotypical, at a time when Jews were being implicated, and (especially the age) doesn't match any other witness descriptions and the police, according to Swanson's report, discounted her testimony.

We still have Eddowes' body being much warmer than Chapman's even though the temps were similar, although the arrival of Brown and Phillips, in their respective cases were about the same time after the murders were thought to have been commited.

Annie's would also be the only daylight murder... which is rather odd thought not impossible.

The key here is Richardson... because if he did in fact sit down on those steps to mend his boot, there is no way he couldn't have seen a body lying there. But, there again Chandler said that he said something different in his first interview of him at the scene and may have stood in the open door to check the lock to his right. However, Richardson is consistant in his testimony to the press and at the inquest, that he sat on the step with his feet resting on the flagstone.

Witnesses are the main evidence throughout this entire series, but as we have already learned with Stride's case, and any detective will tell you, its a precarious venture at best. Unfortunately, along with the physicians' testimonies - which often conflict as well - its about all we have in these murders and why so many interpretations abound.

[Donald Souden]

Cris,

We still have Eddowes' body being much warmer than Chapman's even though the temps were similar

No, what we have is a perception, from touch alone, as to body warmth--and that is incredibly subjective and unscientific in the extreme. Even today, with all the advances in forensic pathology, absent other factors, "time of death" determinations remain vague and rightly so. The 1888 "grope and grasp" technique, even when practiced by the same individual, is nothing but a very rough guess.

Don.

[Cris Malone]

Yes Don,

I should have added the 'perception' part in my statement you quoted as it was the views of two different physicians. However, we're talking about quite a difference in time here.

[Adam Went]

Hey Cris,

I've thought about this before - what do you (and anybody else, for that matter) think about the possibility that Mrs. Long infact heard the clock strike 5.15 AM rather than 5.30 AM? That would of course fit in neatly with Cadosch's testimony and explain a few problems away.

Of course it's only a matter of minutes anyway, and what you say about the witnesses is right, so the key is to sort through all the evidence, pick the fact from the fiction and then connect the chain using the most logical and sensible solution possible - "If it makes sense, it fits", as they say - so bearing that in mind, we have 3 witnesses who all support a time of death at approximately 5.30 AM, and then one doctor who made several errors throughout the case stating a time considerably earlier....surely the former has to be the most accurate?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks everyone

It is one of those ripper puzzles that we can all ponder on without ‘suspect’ ripperology interfering.

But for once I think I agree with all the comments made.

I’ve been very interested in Jacks MO.

And I think he acted very fast. Annie from the front. I cant see a long conversation in the back yard, so I think Cadousch, heard Annie murdered when she said ‘NO’.

If he heard something hit he fence when he returned to the yard he heard Jack at work.

And I don’t think Jack took more than five minutes…so perhaps he did hear ‘Jack’ going over the back fence?

But many thanks for everyone’s advice, I will try and put it to good use.

Yours Jeff

[How Brown]

Jeff:

Just a thought from over here....and not made as an excuse to derail what anyone else has kindly provided in response to your question. Its nothing novel...

What if... between the time Richardson was in the back yard and cutting off some excess leather from his shoe...and the time that Cadosch heard and Long saw what they claim they did, Chapman was killed.

You see...more often than not, people tend to believe Richardson's story...but also believe the two witnesses and are skeptical of Phillips' timing of the murder.

What if... Richardson was spot on with the time...Phillips was not quite as off on the estimated time of death...and Mrs. Long was incorrect about the two and Cadosch only thought he heard noises...heard something from somewhere else... or invented the story ? We already have one abysmal witness in the Case ( Pearly Poll).....so maybe, just maybe, these two weren't so reliable ?

One thing which stands out in the Chapman murder, Jeff, is difference the time as compared with the previous murder ( 3:30-3:40 AM, ballpark estimate, for Nichols)...

Wouldn't the murderer know that people were more likely to be making trips to a backyard as daybreak unfolded... at 5:30 or so ? Such balls this man had.

Just a thought,Jeff. Again, only mentioned to consider at a future date.

[Cris Malone]

Excellent thougths Adam, Jeff. Yes, for sure I like to discuss aspects of the case where suspect theories don't come into play because its like Chris Scott said on another thread, its very liberating not to have a prefered suspect... not that I mind that many people do. Until something more tangible comes along about a particular person, I like to view that area with a clean slate.

Adam, I remember a Ripperologist article from some years back that discussed the clocks and their chime sequence, but don't recall the issue or who wrote it. Whether the brewer's clock or the Spitafield's Church clock struck on the quarter hour, I can't say, but someone out there likely knows. Logically speaking, it would be hard to discount the statements of 3 witnesses, even if there were some timing issues, but it still seems a bit odd that Annie was killed in daylight, in a back yard, at a time when people would be getting up to go to the privy... there again, try to figure the mind of someone who killed like that anyway, I guess.

How, I just read your post after I had written the above and it looks like we were thinking along the same lines.
Scary, huh? LOL

[How Brown]

Sure is Cris. :brick:

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Guys

I think as Chris says, you have to take Long, Richardson’s and Cadosch evidence together. And if long did hear the chimes quarter past, they all fit.

Pearly Poll has no one to corroborate her evidence. Indeed she took some time coming forward and might possibly have known about the sighting of a soldier?

As for the late time it doesn’t over bother me, as I don’t think the killer gave it much heed. He simply attacked when the opportunity presented itself. PC Harvey was probably in Mitre Square when Jack was performing his mutilations and if Schwartz did witness Strides murder, which by the timing of events seems probable to me, then we are talking about a killer that simply walks up exchanges a few words and kills before the victim has time to realize what is happening.

I don’t think Richardson could have sat on the step and missed the body. So in my book Philips must have been wrong. His estimates are all a little generous.

Many thanks again all

Yours Jeff

[Adam Went]

Hey Cris and all,

I'm unsure of whether the clock struck every 15 minutes or 30 minutes either, but I have read accounts of other public clocks in the areas which tolled every 15 minutes so it might be a reasonable assumption that that particular clock did the same....and, as we've said before, that would fit in neatly with the statements of Richardson and particularly Cadosch.

Also, a point that might be of interest is that the fence at No. 29 was supposedly around 5 feet 6 inches in height, yet Cadosch made no mention in his testimony of actually seeing the tops of anybody's head, or a hat, etc poking above the top of the fence, which could mean one of two things:

1.) That the conversation he heard and the noises were made while the two of them were already in a sitting/kneeling/bending/crouching down position; or

2.) That JTR, as well as Annie, was less than 5'6 tall.

The latter becomes a very relevant point when considering some suspects, particularly given the fact that the Cadosch sighting took place atleast some form of early daylight. The fence was also described as "rickety" which could mean that there were bits and pieces broken off some of the palings....

Anyway, food for thought!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jeff Leahy]

Mrs long describes the man she saw as 'a little taller than the deceased' and 'Foreign looking'

But I think youre correct Adam, we can rule out anyone in a top hat :lol:

Many thanks

J

[Cris Malone]

Damn!

And my suspect was the guy on a can of Planters' peanuts.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all. Just a few facts to set the scene, as a few of the posters might not be aware of Albert and his 'condition'. If memory serves, Cadosch was 27 years old. He had recently undergone surgery and it was for this reason he was going out so often to the backyard. It is inferred from this that he was using the privvy. Erego, there are three reasons he did not see anything going on in the openings of the poorly constructed fence that seperated him from the Ripper - 1) He was in pain, 2) He was in a hurry to leave for work, 3) He spent most of the time sitting inside the privvy, so would have had no view to anything outside. This is also most likely why he couldn't be certain that he heard the sounds from number 29 and not 25. As a side not, it's generally considered that either Dr. Phillips was wrong, or Long/Cadosch were wrong in their timings, but for some reason it's rarely considered that all of them were wrong.

[How Brown]

Tom:

I, for one, find it very unlikely that Cadosch was wrong about the time since he had to get to work. Yet, you never know...15 minutes of fame and all that. Its possible that that was a fabricated story. Possible.

What strikes me ( and I am sure you and everyone else has thought of this) is that in the previous murder of Nichols...the chances are that the Ripper heard Cross approaching or something else which encouraged him to leave pronto and leave Nichols as she was..with organs intact.
Not so in the Chapman murder if Cadosch was telling the truth.
In short, what probably spooked him the first time doesn't seem to have been an issue the second time...only 8 days later.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi all

Yes, thanks for that Tom. I was aware, largely through John Bennett, but it does seem sensible to lay those circumstance on the table, as you have done so.

Howard: I’m fast coming to the conclusion that Jack was so blatant that he only left the scene when disturbed, and didn’t give a tinkers cus who saw him.

I think he was just bizarrely lucky? :wof:

Yours jeff

[Cris Malone]

I would venture to speculate, Jeff, at least as far as the outdoor murders were concerned, that what you suggest may well be the case. He probably cut Kate's apron because he heard someone and decided to 'clean up' while gettin' the Hell outta there. Annie's is really the only one that he may have just walked away from... and maybe not there either.

Anyone that chooses to kill, much less mutilate too, in the open, in a Metropolis, and gets away with it is very lucky. Off hand, I can't think of another serial killer that took this kind of risk on a regular basis.

[How Brown]

Jeff:
I envision the Ripper being more ballsy than the image some have of him.
To me and of course this is at best a speculation... I feel something disturbed/interrupted him on Bucks Row...and whatever disturbed/interrupted him was something he either heard(1st) or saw(2nd choice).
Thats why Hanbury Street's murder is a little perplexing to me in that I don't think he had to see or did see Cadosch but he would have had to hear Cadosch.
Why doesn't this aural recognition of a person across the fence make him up and leave at or near the time he heard Cadosch if it did ( in my "theory") on Bucks Row ? Unless, of course he saw Cross coming (and heard him).

[Cris Malone]

I reckon it would be the fence, How... a little different than someone coming down the street. If he heard Cadosch, he could hide or be quiet for a while. As long as he didn't hear "Hey, what's goin' on over there?" he probably felt secure... and who knows?... if Cadosch was correct in his statement, JtR may have gotten a little leary after his second trip to the jon and hurried it up a bit... might explain the bump against the fence.

I think this guy went on autopilot after he got started and it took a good jolt ( like a cart turning in, or someone directly approaching ) to get his attention.

[Adam Went]

Maybe it was a bad stew he'd eaten the night before, Tom. ;)

Cadosch was probably used to hearing activity from the neighbouring yards anyway, at that time of the morning when everybody was getting up and about for work. Apparently he was paying close enough attention to hear the word "no" though. Regardless of whether he was running late for work or in pain or whatever though, nothing changes the fact that if the Ripper was standing upright when they were having a conversation, a quick glance in that general direction would have shown him if he was over 5'6 tall. I don't think anybody's suggesting that Cadosch did a Hutchinson and just stood there for a while seeing what happened.

As for the interruptions.....what does everyone think of the possibility that JTR was interrupted by a member inside the IWMEC rather than Louis Diemschutz's approaching cart?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Tom_Wescott]

As for the interruptions.....what does everyone think of the possibility that JTR was interrupted by a member inside the IWMEC rather than Louis Diemschutz's approaching cart?

This is a Chapman thread. Didn't you use to be a moderator? :) As for Cadosch, he saw no one, thus there was no one standing up to see. What he heard would have been while he was in his privvy and had no view but his 4 walls.

I was aware, largely through John Bennett

Hi Jeff. Did you and John discuss Cadosch, or did he publish something on the matter? If the latter, please let me know what and I where because I must have overlooked it.

I, for one, find it very unlikely that Cadosch was wrong about the time since he had to get to work. Yet, you never know...15 minutes of fame and all that. Its possible that that was a fabricated story. Possible.

We were born into a world of accurate time pieces and punch cards, but it wouldn't have been so strict for Cadosch. And I don't think it's feasible at all that he was lying, as he was a reluctant witness at the inquest. He was quite upset that he had to miss work to appear (after missing work for his surgery) and was paid so little. He appealed for better pay for witnesses.

[Jeff Leahy]

[QUOTE=Tom Wescott;107573]
[privvy and had no view but his 4 walls. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Hi Jeff. Did you and John discuss Cadosch, or did he publish something on the matter? If the latter, please let me know what and I where because I must have overlooked it.


Begg and Bennett working together? I couldn't possibly comment :tongue1:

[Jeff Leahy]

[QUOTE=Tom Wescott;107573]
[privvy and had no view but his 4 walls. [/SIZE][/FONT]

"Hi Jeff. Did you and John discuss Cadosch, or did he publish something on the matter? If the latter, please let me know what and I where because I must have overlooked it."

Begg and Bennett working together? I couldn't possibly comment :tongue1:

PS Sorry I seem to have buggered the quotes somewhere..its late and I have been working all day in London..sorry..any help gettin' rid of double post?? Jx

PS PS Have your discs arrived???

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Jeff. I'm not surprised to hear that Begg is working with Bennett now. Begg pleaded with me for years to write a book with him, but I'm far too busy to teach him the ropes, so I recommended him over to Bennett, because they both have beards, and if nothing else, would have that to talk about. Anyway, if Bennett needs any help mentoring Begg, I'm happy to help where I can and am just an e-mail away. By the way, I received your package last night and none of the discs play. They all say 'disc error'.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff. I'm not surprised to hear that Begg is working with Bennett now. Begg pleaded with me for years to write a book with him, but I'm far too busy to teach him the ropes, so I recommended him over to Bennett, because they both have beards, and if nothing else, would have that to talk about. Anyway, if Bennett needs any help mentoring Begg, I'm happy to help where I can and am just an e-mail away. By the way, I received your package last night and none of the discs play. They all say 'disc error'.

Bugger..Is there any chance you could try them on your computer and see if they will play? I realize this must be most frustrating. But they play OK over here on my computer. And I need to figure out why you are having problems? The only way I can do this is by trial and error. The discs I sent you are the same as the ones I send Adam.....all most frustrating.

YOurs Jeff

PS I think John and Paul have an interest in a pictorial version of the A to Z.

But I have been keeping them much to busy to get that started....:eek:

[Adam Went]

Tom:

This is a Chapman thread. Didn't you use to be a moderator?

I sure was....until Howard fired me. You know you're going well when you get fired from a voluntary position. :)
As for the rest, I'll avoid it lest we have the same argument on 2 different forums lol.

I think you'll find though that Victorian workers were as punctual as possible, a few minutes late could be a few pence that they might miss out on. Every little bit counted for those of the poorer class, and Cadosch seems to be quite specific with his times, as he did see the time as he passed Spitalfields Church as well.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jeff Leahy]

I’d agree that Cadosch timing seems the best. But I don’t think you have to put everyone’s timing out by more than say two minutes for everything to work.

Just think how fast the account given by Schwartz happened?

Long hears the couple say “will you?” “yes”

They turn go down the passage into the yard….30 secondss Cadosch comes out.

Long hears the clock, Cadoshe hears “NO”

He goes back inside to leave for work but requires the toilet again. Goes back out hears something hit the fence leaves for work approx 5.30.

If he left at 5,33 he would still say I left for work at 5.30. You normally allow a little extra time than you require.

So as long as the events take no more than 3-4 minutes I don’t see why they cant fit.

Jack then has ten minutes alone with Annie and scaddles when he hears Davis approach.

Yours Jeff

PS I will look at the NTSC once more today, I just cant figure why the last ones played and these don’t???

[Adam Went]

Jeff:

Pretty sure Mrs. Long heard the clock strike just as she was turning into Hanbury Street though, not after she had already walked past the couple? Just a minor point.....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff:

Pretty sure Mrs. Long heard the clock strike just as she was turning into Hanbury Street though, not after she had already walked past the couple? Just a minor point.....

Cheers,
Adam.

Yes your correct. She heard the clock strike then witnessed Annie talking to a man...tis very tight if that is the case.

Yours Jeff

[Adam Went]

Jeff:

Yes it does, but then it makes much more sense if you think that Mrs. Long was mistaken, and the clock infact struck 5.15 instead of 5.30 (presumably she didn't bother to look at it, just heard it strike), she then passes Annie and JTR, continues on her way, JTR then leads Annie into the backyard, at 5.20 Cadosch comes outside and hears a conversation of some sort, of which he made out the word "no", shortly after that he hears the bump against the fence, then goes to work, and that's it.....it makes the timeline a lot more sensible.

Cheers,
Adam.