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Points To Ponder A forum filled with rehashed ideas, overlooked & often original theories, and newspaper articles from days gone by.

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Old May 10th, 2017, 02:54 PM   #111
Tom_Wescott
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Brady Street and Bucks Row were notorious for being dangerous and especially so for women.

If......and its a big if.....there was this melodramatic handprint and shrieking from someone.....then theres no resson to assume it was
a ripper thing.
By 'no reason' you mean 'no reason except the mutilated corpse on Buck's Row', right?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Poster
Indeed given the nature of the street, its plausible the witness mistook when she heard it.

Odd how the ripper case is full of women hearing other women shouting murder.
Mistook something else for a woman screaming and running and apparently making racket on their house? What did they mistake for it?

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Odd how the ripper', adept from the get go at offing women silently, managed to let one go roaring down the street.

P
I've thought of this too. And it does bother me. However, when thinking of prolific serial killers, most seem to have the ones who got away. Even the vehicular ones like Ted Bundy. Zodiac used guns and a couple of his survived. Son of Sam as well. Jeffrey Dahmer, on and on. If the Ripper didn't have his failures he'd be even more of an anomaly than he is.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old May 10th, 2017, 03:07 PM   #112
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Hi Tom

Polly had clean hands. So the handprint wasn't hers. And it occurred in a violent street ....if it occurred at all.

So there is no reason to conclude it was a ripper thing. More likely a violent criminal thing for which the street was known. Not that the handprint was there at all.

How do you account for the difference between MM and all other ripper victims?

MM had injuries more akin to a suicide attempt or defensive wounds from a frontal assault with a knife. This is completely unlike all known ripper victims who had cut throats, probably from behind. MMs injuries, if ripper inflicted, deviate from all other victims. How do you reconcile that?
Quote:
Mistook something else for a woman screaming and running and apparently making racket on their house? What did they mistake for it?
Read the post Tom. I said "when". Debate is pointless if you refuse to read or wilfully misunderstand.

p
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Old May 10th, 2017, 05:11 PM   #113
Gary Barnett
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You and I are good as long as it's understood who is and isn't Emperor. You're welcome to imagine me in the nude so long as it does not become an issue.

Speaking of boss man, How was pretty clear with his post.

Now, regarding the reports I talk about in my book, which SEEM to emanate from a police source, and apparently someone without full details, two date ranges are given, but I don't have my book with me to check what they are. I'll get back on that. But Gary, since you have a copy of the LH records from those dates, I'm curious if you followed up on that yourself to see if there wasn't someone I missed who may have been the victim described?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Emperor Tom,

You know there isn't a perfect fit, or even a half-decent one. MM came across as a better match than she actually was in the book because the dates were misrepresented. If you'd found a better fit, I'm sure you would have announced it with a megaphone. And perhaps the facts supporting her claim would have been less confusing.

As it was at one point you claimed MM sought treatment for her injury in August (to fit your Brady Street theory) and then a few pages later you said she sought medical attention in September (to fit the press reports). You left out the day in September though, which was at least a week adrift from the reports.

My question is, to what extent can we dismiss elements of the press reports as potentially erroneous? The dates, perhaps? The exact nature of the wound?

Should we focus on the nature of the wound so much that a woman whom we have no reason to suspect was a prostitute, who was injured at a different time than the reports suggest goes to the top of the list because her injury may (only may) have been a knife wound to the arm?


Gavrilo
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Old May 10th, 2017, 06:54 PM   #114
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Emperor Tom,

You know there isn't a perfect fit, or even a half-decent one. MM came across as a better match than she actually was in the book because the dates were misrepresented. If you'd found a better fit, I'm sure you would have announced it with a megaphone. And perhaps the facts supporting her claim would have been less confusing.
You're right, I should just trust my own eyes when looking at hospital registers. I'm not sure where I get this insecurity about it from.

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Originally Posted by Gary Barnett
As it was at one point you claimed MM sought treatment for her injury in August (to fit your Brady Street theory) and then a few pages later you said she sought medical attention in September (to fit the press reports). You left out the day in September though, which was at least a week adrift from the reports.
Did I? Or was I talking about the 17 days she spent in the hospital in September?

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Originally Posted by Gary Barnett
My question is, to what extent can we dismiss elements of the press reports as potentially erroneous? The dates, perhaps? The exact nature of the wound?
That's impossible to say. It's a question of logic. If the source says between Date X and Date Y a woman was injured and was at the London Hospital, but upon search we find no such woman, i'd say it's worthwhile to look outside that date range. And if you find a suitable subject, then you have to open your thinking. Because these aren't 'hard facts' we're working with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Barnett
Should we focus on the nature of the wound so much that a woman whom we have no reason to suspect was a prostitute, who was injured at a different time than the reports suggest goes to the top of the list because her injury may (only may) have been a knife wound to the arm?
Again, it's just a matter of logic. IF you find a woman receiving a serious cut to the arm in the middle of the night and your eyes don't perk up, you probably shouldn't be researching the Ripper crimes. I mean 'you' in the general sense, not 'you' personally.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old May 10th, 2017, 07:01 PM   #115
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Hi Tom

Polly had clean hands. So the handprint wasn't hers. And it occurred in a violent street ....if it occurred at all.

So there is no reason to conclude it was a ripper thing. More likely a violent criminal thing for which the street was known. Not that the handprint was there at all.

How do you account for the difference between MM and all other ripper victims?

MM had injuries more akin to a suicide attempt or defensive wounds from a frontal assault with a knife. This is completely unlike all known ripper victims who had cut throats, probably from behind. MMs injuries, if ripper inflicted, deviate from all other victims. How do you reconcile that?


Read the post Tom. I said "when". Debate is pointless if you refuse to read or wilfully misunderstand.

p
I'm not comfortable with the constant use of the word 'conclude' against me, as though I've ever reached some sort of conclusion. All the things you're suggesting have occurred to me and do bother me as well. Particularly because it appears Polly was rendered unconscious with a chokehold whereas MM or whoever was in Brady Street was not. That is significant. However, there's still the matter of Polly being murdered right there and evidence that another female was assaulted around the same time. Apparently this was not so common as you think if we consider the Coldwell's evidence and how lax the cops in the area were.

I do not think Polly's clean hands rule out an earlier attack by the Ripper, do they?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old May 10th, 2017, 07:23 PM   #116
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You do a fair bit of concluding Tom, whether youcare uncomfortable or not with that doesnt really concern me. You concluded MM wasnt admitted on the first. I can quote some examples og you concluding things on this thread if you like.

But thats neither here nor there and Im done on the matter of MMs admission
.

Im afraid anecdotes about screaming women on a street prone to violence dont really cut it for me in terms of reliability with respect to time or context. I dont considercthem evidence any more than grape stalks and the like.

The scenario of a skilled ripper letting a bleeding, shrieking, woman get away from him, who could presumably identify him, and managing to get either home or to a hospital without him outpacing her and shutting her up is too preposterous to take seriously. He could see the street was empty. And he just let her go? When a quick sprint and a knife in the guts would have shut her up. And all this after cack handledly cocking up the simple matter of slitting her throat.

Of course in this fantasy tale, our man who had no problem dealing with a drunk irish girl in her prime, the feisty Eddowes, Nichols the fighter and horsey Stide......was beaten off by the waving arms of a mother of two who wasnt that hardened on the streets as the othrr four.

Not a chance. MM was never near the ripper but might have concluded after that it was a good story to tell.

I could make a pithy wisecrack on the back of that last sentence but I wont.

P
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Old May 10th, 2017, 07:34 PM   #117
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Mr. Poster, I have neither the time nor inclination to discuss the matter with you if you're going to continue to use that disparaging tone. There's little need for you to tell me what I 'conclude' as I know well enough myself what I think. I find it interesting that witness testimony that doesn't jive with your own theories becomes 'anectdotes' and 'fantasies'. Of the two of us I'd have to say I have the better grasp of the facts.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old May 10th, 2017, 07:45 PM   #118
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Hmmmmmm...... I think that was called a "Harrumph".

I guess you wont be elaborating on what possible chain of events led to our exsanguinating mother of two managing to beat off the ripper and make it all the way to the LH in her petticoats and skirts, all the while keeping constant pressure on her opened artery. Meanwhile the ripper busied himself like a Victorian Banksy leaving handprints and thinking " not to worry, she'll not get far" only to turn around and find she had made it to the LH and was busy getting her admission date wrong. He really must have been off his game thst night.

And Im going to bed knowing Im never going to have the privelege of knowing your version of how it all played out.

P
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"Chance hasn't yet peached on Jack the Ripper.If she ever does, it will probably be cause for grotesque disappointment among the Ripperologists, who get as much joy from attacking one another's lunacies, as from any problems originally posed by the Whitechapel murderer" R. Gowers, The Independant, Saturday, 31 December 1994
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Old May 10th, 2017, 07:48 PM   #119
Tom_Wescott
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Hmmmmmm...... I think that was called a "Harrumph".

I guess you wont be elaborating on what possible chain of events led to our exsanguinating mother of two managing to beat off the ripper and make it all the way to the LH in her petticoats and skirts, all the while keeping constant pressure on her opened artery. Meanwhile the ripper busied himself like a Victorian Banksy leaving handprints and thinking " not to worry, she'll not get far" only to turn around and find she had made it to the LH and was busy getting her admission date wrong. He really must have been off his game thst night.

And Im going to bed knowing Im never going to have the privelege of knowing your version of how it all played out.

P
Um...or you could buy my book.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old May 10th, 2017, 08:00 PM   #120
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I did. And read one section.

And the glaring holes in it necessitated me being here hoping for some answers.

I'll get onto the bit as to why Margaret just vanished when she and the hospital staff andvother patients should have concludede that she was attacked by thecripper yet she never appears in police records, newspapers, anywhere. Until you dig her out, her only mention of it iscto her daughter?

Meanwhile Abberline is looking for grapestalks. While Margaret and everyone who saw her that night must have colcluded shexwas a possible ripper witness.

Or maybe a suicide attempt who showed up the day after Polly.

Snazzy cover though. Im partial to lamps.

P
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"Chance hasn't yet peached on Jack the Ripper.If she ever does, it will probably be cause for grotesque disappointment among the Ripperologists, who get as much joy from attacking one another's lunacies, as from any problems originally posed by the Whitechapel murderer" R. Gowers, The Independant, Saturday, 31 December 1994
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