Sir William Crundall and the "Seaside Home" identification.

[Sean Crundall]

Morley House

Well, this is 1891 but there seems to be only one policeman there, plus a lot of other people :

Hi Robert,

I've trawled through every census mentioning Morley House, and while they are not overflowing with City of London police officers during these years, a trawl of digitized newspapers clearly highlights the Home's City police connections. The City police even contributed to the Home's upkeep. The Home even had a wing, catering exclusively for the City of London police.

Interestingly the Home's founder, Samuel Morley, had business interests in the City, including a warehouse, almost opposite Wood St. police station.

Regards,

Sean.

[Sean Crundall]

Morley House

Hi Lynn,

I did contact the LMA some years ago, but I don't recall them possessing anything relative; however, they're always adding to their collections, and so it's possible they may now hold something of interest.

Best wishes,

Sean.

[Debra Arif]

Hi Sean
Interesting thread, thanks for posting.
You probably have these already but just posting for interest - two portraits of William Henry Crundall taken 1887 in Dover.

[Howard Brown]

Thanks a lot, Debs !
XXX

[Robert Linford]

Sean, I assume you've looked at these?

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/N13859679

[Monty]

Having discussed this subject with Sean for many, many years now, I suggest you wait to see what he presents before you lynch him Phil.

Sean knows what he has, and admits its weaknesses. However, and believe me, he has some strong evidences.

Just advising you, nothing more, from one who knows.

Monty

[Dusty Miller]

Thanks for sharing Sean.
Looks like this could develop into something interesting.

[Anna Morris]

Sean: I made a medium length, thoughtful reply & the [expletive] phone rang and blew me off line. For now let me say I am very impressed and thank you so much for sharing. From little bits of information patterns can emerge. So far as I know to date, nobody is sure where or what was the Seaside Home.

[Phil Carter]

Having discussed this subject with Sean for many, many years now, I suggest you wait to see what he presents before you lynch him Phil.

Sean knows what he has, and admits its weaknesses. However, and believe me, he has some strong evidences.

Just advising you, nothing more, from one who knows.

Monty

Hello Monty,

No lynching far from it. I just want to see a few facts BEFORE I bother to even consider this as anything more than "interesting".

As you well know, hand me down verbal stories doth butter no parsnips. Authors have in the past been rather quick to latch on to such things. ..I can quote a few but you already know them..so all I say is..interesting. like the verbal one about a certain photo of a living Mary Kelly that the late Chris Scott chased after and was given the run around for..because of the lack of facts when questions were applied. That's just one example that comes to mind.
So I am just cutting out the soft talk and getting to the nitty gritty. Produce the written evidence and the facts and I might be more interested. Otherwise..call me a sceptic..but I've seen it all before. Sorry.
And this is respectfully said..again..to the original poster.
There simply has to be some sort of factual evidence more than putting together pieces that have a tenuous connection to a verbal story.
You would say the same to anyone. The rules for Cornwell, Robinson, Sickert and Co apply to all. Evidence. Facts. Official papers if possible. Not hand me down verbal stories. They didn't do Dan Farson any favours. .to mention one off the top of my head.

I realise it wasn't critique Monty. ☺ Hope you realise that I draw a line on what is just interesting and what is worth chasing. And the first post was woefully lacking in facts and evidence. No offence to the original poster..just that the presentation was as written above.


Phil

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

In 2005 Andy Aliffe wrote a short article titled A Rest by the Sea, the Seaside Convalescent Home and a matter of identification. The article was part of the Brighton conference pack and, I believe, appeared nowhere else.

In the article Andy made a very good case, in my opinion, that Anderson's witness identification took place, not in Hove at the Convalescent Police Seaside Home, but instead at the Morely House Seaside Convalescent Home for Working Men at St. Margaret's Bay, Dover. I have agreed with him ever since (in fact I was going to point this out in an article I've been working on for several months). I think Sean is on the right track.

Wolf.

[Howard Brown]

Thanks for that, Wolf....I remember that article.

[Anna Morris]

Sean: In your original post I saw the word "Shylock" apparently defining a Jewish man. Is this just slang for Jew or would it mean a Jewish businessman or money lender? I have thought for a long time that the pawn business might have played a part in the JtR thing.

On Casebook there are a few scattered reminiscences from people who had family or connexions to Whitechapel in 1888. One recounts a Jewish man saying Jack was a Jew and the Jewish community expelled him from their midst or something. (I don't remember what they exactly did but it wasn't turning the man over to the police.)

I have also considered about the Seaside Home identification, whether the witness was a policeman or someone else resident at or working at the Home at that time. Maybe I am way off base thinking this way but I don't see why the witness would have to be a policeman.(?)

[Robert Linford]

Hi Anna

I think the police connection arises because someone - was it Fido? - said that "Seaside Home" (capitalised) was the police term for the home at Hove. Also, if the police wanted to stage a low profile identification, it would have made sense to do it at one of their own properties and outside London.

[Jeff Leahy]

- was it Fido? - said that "Seaside Home" .

Hi Robert

I don't think Fido supported the 'police seaside Home' theory, he confided this in a recent email....

My guess is because Anderson is fairly clear the ID took place in an Asylum..

Of course if a convalescent seaside Home had links to a police seaside home it might be that both are correct

Yours Jeff

PS I noted with interest recently that Karsten Giese speculated that the 'Seaside Home' reference might have been a private joke between Swanson and Anderson.....referencing the move of Scotland Yard to its current position by the Thames....New Scotland Yard... Just wondered if anybody else had ever heard New Scotland Yard referenced jokingly as 'Seaside Home?'

[Robert Linford]

Hi Jeff

I can't say I've ever heard of the seaside home joke. Maybe Monty will know.