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Points To Ponder A forum filled with rehashed ideas, overlooked & often original theories, and newspaper articles from days gone by.

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Old September 8th, 2017, 06:57 PM   #11
Sam Flynn
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Or perhaps the killer of Kelly was looking for a specific prostitute who he only knew by the name of Mary Kelly, or just Kelly, and he killed the right one eventually by process of elimination
It's like the keeper of the Bridge of Death in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "What is your name?" - "Mary Kelly... er, no... Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"
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Old September 8th, 2017, 09:48 PM   #12
Anna Morris
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Mrs. Harvey and Marie Davies go to the pawn shop and scratch at the door.

Whaddya want?" growls the pawn dealer.

"We've got a man's shirt, a boy's shirt, a child's petticoat and one pilot coat."

"What name ya' want on the pawn ticket?"

"Mary Ann Kelly."

"That's taken!"

"Oh...uh....Mary JANE Kelly?"

"That'll do."
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Old September 12th, 2017, 06:34 AM   #13
Caroline Brown
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Maybe different opinions will offer some direction. For some reasons I have thought her family did come forward but the authorities kept their identity secret. It seems to me, concerning her funeral, that someone behind the scenes knew a little about her and that it could be family. If so, on the other hand the secret has been kept for over a hundred years.

If she came from a family with high standards I can see the family never speaking of her again. That is the way my Victorian forebears would have handled it but how likely is it MJK came from this kind of family?

If she came from a large, lower class family like the Halkett Street Kellies and they knew about her demise, I cannot imagine it being kept secret. Someone would have gotten drunk and talked. It would have been good for free pints in pub after pub. Damn the dignity, get the pints!

As an American living in a "melting pot" country, it is hard to understand living in a country where so many people have the same names as it seems to have been in the UK. Is it possible her family never knew murdered MJK was their MJK? Did they rationalize away the thought when she never contacted them again? Postmortem pictures were important in other cases, impossible in Mary's case. Was there an attitude that without a picture, nobody could be sure, so nobody felt the need to come forward?

I suppose there is a time limit on her family being noted at the time. There wasn't a "People" magazine or "Enquirer" doing 10, 20...50 year follow-ups of, "where are they now?" I keep looking for something like that but never find it. If her family figured it out belatedly they would be unlikely to run to the papers for attention and had no possibility of cutting a deal with a TV show.

It seems Mary did have a Welsh background. Whether in Wales or Liverpool, even if family chose not to talk, it seems friends or acquaintances would have said something that the press would pick up. In a sense, Mary had been in the
entertainment business for quite some time. A lot of people had to have known her. I can understand clients not coming forward but there had to be a lot of other people who knew her.

Other possibilities are that the story Barnett related was so far from the truth that NO ONE could recognise the real woman. Or that MJK was the product of an orphanage. Or that she had a very small family that kept the secret. At the rate people died in those days a branch of a family could become small in a couple decades.

Maybe too, the complex tale related by Barnett is too complex. Maybe there is enough inaccuracy that nobody would recognise her by that description? What if in reality, she had a brother-in-law in the Second Batt. Welsh Regiment, for instance?

What if her family immigrated to America, Canada, Australia? The LDS site for awhile kept trying to tell me David Grace--husband of Halkett Street Margaret Kelly--immigrated to America but I could not sort it all out and am not sure what was proposed was correct. David and Margaret disappeared from the news in 1878 and I cannot find them on any of my poor genealogy sources after that date. If Mary's family was far away, how much chance would we have of learning about them? (I think we might have information from Australia since there has been quite a bit of Ripper hunting in that country.)

Considering all that I have looked through U.S. papers of the time, thinking her immigrant relatives would have sought work at mines, etc. where there were a lot of Irish people. Maybe I should be looking for Welsh people.

I am curious to hear other ideas. What am I missing?
Hi Anna,

Given that all the public had to go by were sketches of MJK, which may all have looked totally unlike the woman, her relatives could have been forgiven for not believing it could be her, particularly if she had pinched the Kelly surname on arrival in the East End, or was possibly trying to escape someone from her past. Mary Jane was very common, but Marie Jeanette would have been less so. Having said that, if McCarthy actually saw letters addressed to Kelly from a relative, that would imply at least one of them was aware of her circumstances.

It strikes me that just like Lechmere/Cross, and so many others in the LVP, MJK could well have had personal reasons for the name she was using at the time of her death, which might have been different in a former life.

I've always found the potential Marie Lloyd/stage connection intriguing.

Love,

Caz
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Old September 12th, 2017, 12:40 PM   #14
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Hi Anna,

Given that all the public had to go by were sketches of MJK, which may all have looked totally unlike the woman, her relatives could have been forgiven for not believing it could be her, particularly if she had pinched the Kelly surname on arrival in the East End, or was possibly trying to escape someone from her past. Mary Jane was very common, but Marie Jeanette would have been less so. Having said that, if McCarthy actually saw letters addressed to Kelly from a relative, that would imply at least one of them was aware of her circumstances.

It strikes me that just like Lechmere/Cross, and so many others in the LVP, MJK could well have had personal reasons for the name she was using at the time of her death, which might have been different in a former life.

I've always found the potential Marie Lloyd/stage connection intriguing.



Love,

Caz
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I have considered the Marie Lloyd thing also and did a bit of research on her. She was very talented. That gives us a connexion to McCarthy also.

There is the story passed through the McCarthy family that John sent her things to the brother in the military. I REALLY believe she got letters from a "brother" in Ireland, not a "mother". But maybe he wasn't a blood brother or for some other reason had a different name. Or maybe he was an old boyfriend.

Something about her reported past didn't resonate with enough people to cause anyone to impart any information within ear shot of the press.

Then I think a family might have thought back about Mary Jane who was never heard from again and maybe they would have said something somewhere. But within 30 years of the event there had been WWI and the Spanish flu. Lots of people died and families got wiped out.

Here is another thought. The Halkett Street Kellies were a rough bunch and poor. If THEY were missing a Mary Jane Kelly, it seems they would have made some noise, if only to get a few free pints in the local neighborhood. They must have known where their Mary Kelly was.

I saw the discussion of Homfrey Street Davies/Kellies at Casebook. Ditto for them. A certain amount of Kelly families must have known where their Mary Janes were or if they were deceased, etc. There were enough such families that if even a few Mary Kellies were missing, someone would have said something.
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