George Hutchinson's notes...

[SirRobertAnderson]

By the time of the Kelly murder we know there were detectives all over the place... professional, amateur and everything in between. Sometimes, they were even following each other!

The home where he lived was also run by former Met detectives if I recall correctly.

[Howard Brown]

By the time of the Kelly murder we know there were detectives all over the place... professional, amateur and everything in between. Sometimes, they were even following each other!-- Cousin Cris Malone


Inspector Henry Moore mentions the figure of 200 detectives ( not police department detectives) being on the street in an interview in 1889.
( see 1889 In The News thread)

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil,

I do not, as you so quaintly put it, "fanny about" in any way.. I do not wish to be misunderstood nor misinterpreted by anyone, (which has happened before on these forums).. that is why I wrote it. I also happen to have had various discussions recently with many Ripperologists face to face upon EXACTLY this point...that the written word can very easily be misinterpreted. Thereby the person, the writer, misjudged. I found complete agreement on this subject.

I do not need to change and become more "direct" than I already am. I feel my point was made fairly succinctly. Being respectful is my way. Whether you believe that or not, is entirely up to you of course.

I do not see your post as a "personal attack" on me at all, but thank you for the confirmation. (misinterpretation perhaps?...) I saw it as a difference between us of viewing, researching and revieiwing things inside Ripperology. Please note that I made NO conclusion in my post. I leave it open for consideration. I only believe it to be possible, and not to be readily dismissed lightly.

What I would question, however, is how you know how Special Branch work, how they accumulate and take their statements in 1888 and the LVP that isn't known to the rest of us?
For from what I can see, have read, from many books, papers etc from ex Special Branch men, Littlechild, Anderson, Melville, McIntyre included, their methodology is very much on a basis of "do how they seem fit" under each set of circumstances. Special Branch were a law unto themselves. Their methodology and, for example, payments to informants has never been fully revealed, and we only see snippets in Clutterbuck's thesis. However, Littlechild himself admitted in his memoirs that he went out at night dressed up and in disguise, and told us a little of the methodology. Anderson's words of how Special Branch "bent the rules" are clear. The actions and even memories of various Special Branch men are written in various books as well. Melville's doings are written of, as is Patrick McIntyre's (by himself) after his dismissal from the force in 1893.

These are just a few examples of from where I base my "open possibility" upon. Whether others do not know what techniques are used or not I cannot answer for them, they can do that themselves.

I am happy to answer the query of my thought process, and I believe, fairly, that I have presented this with open, rational, logical, and fair consideration.
If you happen to disagree, then fine. We have a different way of researching, and working in this field. As I said in my previous posting, there should be room for both, and many other varities. I welcome that, infact.

I hope this makes things clear to you. You have opened your query. It has been answered fairly, and openly. And calmly.... he says, honestly.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Hi Phil,

By over emphasising the respect shows an insinuation I do not respect views or opinions.

It must be pointed out that these murders were not a special branch investigation. To give a statement under an alias, and to provide a falisity on statement and in trial (if it ever got to that stage) is perjury. Hutchinson, the Special Branch officer, evidence becomes inadmissable.

That opens up the possibility of a prosecution collapse. Do you honestly think the Police would knowing gather false information in a witness statement, and run the risk of that falsehood coming out in court?

Its not about Special Branch procedure, tis about bog standard legal procedure.

So no, the submission Hutchinson was Special Branch just does not hold up....I respectively state with calmness and peace.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil,

The stressing of respect is for all, not just you.. so that NO-ONE misunderstands it. As I have been subject to misunderstanding and misinterpretation before, this is how I choose to write.

As far as not being a Special Branch investigation... how do you explain the entries in the Special Branch ledgers that ARE related specifically to JTR? These have been mentioned by Clutterbuck, Butterworth and more recently, Trevor Marriot, who is as we speak trying to get permission to see the entire set of records pertaining to JTR in the ledgers, and is in the middle of a lengthy and ongoing process with the Freedom of Information people and Scotland Yard.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Hi Phil,

Special Branch undoubtly took on ops, either upon request or indirectly, regarding certain matters, however its clear that the investigation was Police driven.

I note you havent address my points regarding Hutchinsons statement.

Monty

[Paul Kearney A.K.A. NEMO]

I think at the most Hutchinson might have assumed an air of some type of amateur detective

He must have known he was star witness for a moment

I think it's a possibility he had written down the description prior to approaching the police, in fact, I would be surprised if he hadn't, if he was a concerned citizen

A bit like writing down a car number - you wouldn't rely on committing it to memory alone

As soon as he realised the significance of his sighting, if he hadn't written it down already, I would think he would write it down soon after - which was prior to the Sunday I think, before he approached the policeman (supposedly)

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil,

Thank you for your reply.
I can but agree with the "the statement under an alias problem". However I readily admit to knowing less of this subject than you. My only answer is what I said previously that Special Branch do their own thing their way. They always have. They bend rules to suit their purpose. That comes from the horse's mouth, Anderson himself.

I note that you didn't comment upon the reasoning behind the tactics I referenced to of Special Branch, with listed sources? However, you do not have to, for it would sound like one-upmanship, and would make me look like I was trying to score points... which I don't do. I am happy with the responses you have given thusfar.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

I think at the most Hutchinson might have assumed an air of some type of amateur detective

He must have known he was star witness for a moment

I think it's a possibility he had written down the description prior to approaching the police, in fact, I would be surprised if he hadn't, if he was a concerned citizen

A bit like writing down a car number - you wouldn't rely on committing it to memory alone

As soon as he realised the significance of his sighting, if he hadn't written it down already, I would think he would write it down soon after - which was prior to the Sunday I think, before he approached the policeman (supposedly)

Hello Nemo,

Yes, this sounds quite plausible to me as well. A possibility.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

I note that you didn't comment upon the reasoning behind the tactics I referenced to of Special Branch, with listed sources? However, you do not have to, for it would sound like one-upmanship, and would make me look like I was trying to score points... which I don't do. I am happy with the responses you have given thusfar.

Yes, I noted that also.

Monty

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho

Always nice to see yet another plausible, possible reason for GH to have been where he was and seen what he seen.

Especially in light of the constant assurances by certain sections of the community that there are absolutely no possible explanations for GH and his behaviours other than he was guilty. Of being the ripper.

I guess we can add this concept of his being some kind of undercover chap to the pretty much infinitely long list of things GH may have been that do not involve his having killed anyone.

p