Lechmeres job clarification

[Allison Shonk]

I have read different accounts of the job Lechmere had. Most state he was a worker at Pickfords, while one or two that he was a butcher selling meat. Can someone clear this up please? Thank you.

[Christer Holmgren]

I have read different accounts of the job Lechmere had. Most state he was a worker at Pickfords, while one or two that he was a butcher selling meat. Can someone clear this up please? Thank you.

He was a carman, working for Pickfords. He had worked for the company for more than twenty years as the Ripper scare occurred. The depot at which he worked in 1888, in Broad Street, delivered a lot of meat to butcheries, so he will probably have transported meat quite often.

In the 1890:s, he conducted business in Broadway market. After him, his kids took over and started a cat´s meat selling business there.

Lechmere went on to open up a small grocery shop in Sceptre Street, and later moved his business to Carlton Road.

PS. Notice this was your first post, so I will take the opportunity to wish you welcome to the boards!

[Allison Shonk]

He was a carman, working for Pickfords. He had worked for the company for more than twenty years as the Ripper scare occurred. The depot at which he worked in 1888, in Broad Street, delivered a lot of meat to butcheries, so he will probably have transported meat quite often.

In the 1890:s, he conducted business in Broadway market. After him, his kids took over and started a cat´s meat selling business there.

Lechmere went on to open up a small grocery shop in Sceptre Street, and later moved his business to Carlton Road.

PS. Notice this was your first post, so I will take the opportunity to wish you welcome to the boards!

Thank you Christer. So what exactly was Pickfords?

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you Christer. So what exactly was Pickfords?

Pickfords was a short-lived, but effective, educational institute that specialised in the training of serial killers.

[Christer Holmgren]

Thank you Christer. So what exactly was Pickfords?

It was - and is - a transport company, one of the largest in Britain. The Broad Street depot was just one of many, many depots.

[Anna Morris]

Pickfords was a short-lived, but effective, educational institute that specialised in the training of serial killers.

You should get ten points in the weekly contest for that one!

[Phillip Walton]

A carman is what in the US would be called a teamster.

[Caroline Brown]

Pickfords is such a household name here that when I left my ex husband five years ago and sorted through, packed up and transported all my personal belongings to pastures new, I called the process "Pickfording". In fact, the day I moved out became known as "P Day".

Of course, Lechmere beat me to it when he moved to Doveton Street. He became Cross with Polly Nichols, slaughtered her and called it "P Day".

True story. [The first bit anyway.]

Love,

Caz
X

[Christer Holmgren]

Caroline Morris: Pickfords is such a household name here that when I left my ex husband five years ago and sorted through, packed up and transported all my personal belongings to pastures new, I called the process "Pickfording". In fact, the day I moved out became known as "P Day".

Of course, Lechmere beat me to it when he moved to Doveton Street. He became Cross with Polly Nichols, slaughtered her and called it "P Day".

True story. [The first bit anyway.]

Love,

Caz

Probably the closest you´ve come to the truth on these boards, so I salute you.

[Allison Shonk]

He was a carman, working for Pickfords. He had worked for the company for more than twenty years as the Ripper scare occurred. The depot at which he worked in 1888, in Broad Street, delivered a lot of meat to butcheries, so he will probably have transported meat quite often.

In the 1890:s, he conducted business in Broadway market. After him, his kids took over and started a cat´s meat selling business there.

Lechmere went on to open up a small grocery shop in Sceptre Street, and later moved his business to Carlton Road.

PS. Notice this was your first post, so I will take the opportunity to wish you welcome to the boards!

Hello Christer,

I have a question. I find Lechmere of great interest. One question I keep asking myself is that he lived until 1920, so why stop killing? I gather you are very interested in him so I thought you might be the one to ask.

[Christer Holmgren]

Hello Christer,

I have a question. I find Lechmere of great interest. One question I keep asking myself is that he lived until 1920, so why stop killing? I gather you are very interested in him so I thought you might be the one to ask.

Well, Allison, since I am certain that the Ripper and the Thames torso killer were the same man, and since I am equally sure that Lechmere killed Polly Nichols, the unescapable conclusion becomes one where we may have the carman responsible for two sets of murders running between (at least) 1873 to 1889.
The torso murders are erratic chronologically: 1873, 1874, 1884, 1887, 1888, 1889 are the years covered. So there´s a ten year gap from 1874 to 1884, where the killer may have claimed victims we have so far not identified as his.
The fact that Kelly would not have been the last victim, in spite of how she has always been described as the pinnacle, a strike that made him go bananas as per MacNaghten, is consistent with my own idea that he was not just about cutting and slashing, the more the better. Instead I think he worked to an agenda, and the only thing that told Kelly apart from the others was that he had more time to perform parts of that agenda, or ritual if you will.
There are cases further along the 1890:s where Lechmere is present in the periphery, and my own stance is that his urge to kill tapered off as he grew older, and that he killed at a slower rate, only to stop killing on the whole at some stage.

Mind you, this is not kosher to suggest amongst ripperologists. They will tell you that I am pinning every murder in the Victorian Britain on Charles Lechmere, and that I am being ridiculous. Presumably, they have never read about killers like the Green River killer or Pedro Lopez, who merrily went on killing as long as they were not caught, or the BTK killer, who tapered off the way I am suggesting for Lechmere, not killing anybody during the latter years he stayed uncaught.

I believe the urge to kill is tied to the sexual drive, and the sexual drive tapers off as we grow older. Consequently, I believe the urge to kill goes the same way, and I am perfectly certain that many serial killers have been buried as innocent men after having spent their lives in families who either never guessed who they were or who entertained suspicion but were not comfortable with the idea of trying to find out for certain. My hunch is that Lechmere was just such a man.

[Allison Shonk]

Well, Allison, since I am certain that the Ripper and the Thames torso killer were the same man, and since I am equally sure that Lechmere killed Polly Nichols, the unescapable conclusion becomes one where we may have the carman responsible for two sets of murders running between (at least) 1873 to 1889.
The torso murders are erratic chronologically: 1873, 1874, 1884, 1887, 1888, 1889 are the years covered. So there´s a ten year gap from 1874 to 1884, where the killer may have claimed victims we have so far not identified as his.
The fact that Kelly would not have been the last victim, in spite of how she has always been described as the pinnacle, a strike that made him go bananas as per MacNaghten, is consistent with my own idea that he was not just about cutting and slashing, the more the better. Instead I think he worked to an agenda, and the only thing that told Kelly apart from the others was that he had more time to perform parts of that agenda, or ritual if you will.
There are cases further along the 1890:s where Lechmere is present in the periphery, and my own stance is that his urge to kill tapered off as he grew older, and that he killed at a slower rate, only to stop killing on the whole at some stage.

Mind you, this is not kosher to suggest amongst ripperologists. They will tell you that I am pinning every murder in the Victorian Britain on Charles Lechmere, and that I am being ridiculous. Presumably, they have never read about killers like the Green River killer or Pedro Lopez, who merrily went on killing as long as they were not caught, or the BTK killer, who tapered off the way I am suggesting for Lechmere, not killing anybody during the latter years he stayed uncaught.

I believe the urge to kill is tied to the sexual drive, and the sexual drive tapers off as we grow older. Consequently, I believe the urge to kill goes the same way, and I am perfectly certain that many serial killers have been buried as innocent men after having spent their lives in families who either never guessed who they were or who entertained suspicion but were not comfortable with the idea of trying to find out for certain. My hunch is that Lechmere was just such a man.

What makes you sure the torso killer is the same as the ripper? I think it possible but not certain. Are there some similarities I'm missing or something I haven't read tying them together? Also I've read that the torso killer evidently had medical knowledge but Lechmere did not. If they are the same killer it doesn't seem Lechmere is our man.

[Michael Banks]

My first post

Hi
New member here. I've read with interest both here and on the casebook site the discussions/debates centred around Lechmere/Cross. I'm not saying that he couldn't have been guilty but.....
My main objection I suppose is this Although we don't know the rippers IQ we can be at least confident that he was cunning (he avoided capture after all). This implies that he took precautions: ideal victims, secluded spots, possible knowledge of police patrols, escape routes, possible bolt holes where he could clean up. Surely, with this in mind, he would have known beforehand that he was going out to kill and would have been prepared.
For me this doesn't tally with someone killing on the way to work?! He couldn't have known how long it would take to get Nichols 'in position,' or how long it would take to kill her. And yet we know that Cross was concerned about being late for work. Also, would he have risked getting blood spattered when he was a matter of minutes from work. Perhaps a bit of blood that he didn't see, spotted by a workmate, who then heard that there was a murder on the route that Cross took to work. It's also possible that if Cross took the same route to work each day Paul might have done too. That being the case it's likely that they would have been aware of each other, if only by sight. Would Cross have committed a murder knowing that another bloke could have been along at any time? Is it also likely that Cross would commit a murder somewhere that he would find it difficult to tell the police that he hadn't been? He first heard Paul approach around 40 yards away( a decent head start) why not just run. By the time that Paul realised that there was a dead body Cross would have been long gone.
He appears to have just given the name that he used from day to day. No great mystery there and he presented plausibly at the inquest.
Personally I don't see Cross/Lechmere as the killer. But maybe I'm wrong.
Regards
Michael.

[Sam Flynn]

For a first post that's quite a humdinger, Michael. You make valid and interesting points, and I agree with them all.

Welcome to JTRForums!

[Anna Morris]

Hi, Michael! I don't see Cross/Lechmere as Jack, but there is something eerie about the research. I suppose it is possible Jack had a connexion with Cross, relative or something.

That said, of the canonical five, Polly's murder, to me, is substantially different than the others. Perhaps she was Jack's first victim or his first after he decided to cut throats. Maybe he attacked women some other way before Polly.

I have the feeling Polly was attacked in anger, she did or said something that angered the killer. He cut her throat and slashed her abdomen to demean her and left her in the street. This is just my opinion but it leaves the door wide open for Cross to be Polly's killer. (I just don't think he went on to kill the others and overall I don't think he killed anyone.)

Some people argue that JtR didn't kill every one of the C-5. Some even argue that JtR never existed and the murders are unconnected. Personally, if I think of one of these murders being unconnected, it is Polly, who I suspect may have been killed on the street after enraging the attacker, whoever he was.