Emma Elizabeth Smith = Emma Wiseman?

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  • Chris Scott
    Author & Researcher
    • Apr 2008
    • 2613

    Emma Elizabeth Smith = Emma Wiseman?

    From the little we know from contemporary reports of Emma Elizabeth Smith we can reasonably infer the following:
    1) Her forenames were Emma Elizabeth
    2) She was by the time of her death widowed and Smith was her married name
    3) She had at the time of her death at least two surviving children, one male and one female.
    4) She was born in or about 1843. She was reportedly 45 years of age at the time of her death in 1888.
    So we are looking for a woman named Emma Elizabeth, born in 1843, who married a man whose surname was Smith and had at least two children.
    I can find only one. A woman named Emma Elizabeth Wiseman married John Smith in Bermondsey in 1872. The details of the marriage are as follows:
    Full details from marriage certificate:
    Marriage solemnized at Christ Church in the New Parish of Christ Church, Bermondsey in the County of Surrey.
    When married: September 22 1872
    Groom:
    Name: John Smith
    Age: 26
    Condition: Bachelor
    Profession: Stoker
    Residence at time of marriage: 8 West Street, Neckinger (in Southwark)
    Father: John Smith (deceased)
    Profession: Paper maker
    Bride:
    Name: Emma Elizabeth Wiseman
    Age: 29
    Condition: Spinster
    Residence at time of marriage: 8 Albert Street, Neckinger
    Father: William Wiseman
    Profession: Ship keeper

    NB: Neckinger was an area of Southwark named after the River Neckinger, one of London's nopw underground rivers which flows into the Thames at Southwark.

    I am attaching a copy of the certificate. I think I have identified this couple living in Boston Street, Shoreditch but there is still a deal of work to be done. Any further info when confirmed I will post here.
    Attached Files
  • Chris Scott
    Author & Researcher
    • Apr 2008
    • 2613

    #2
    A brief guide to the Neckinger and its course is at

    Comment

    • Stan Reid
      Inactive or Former Member
      • Mar 2008
      • 3806

      #3
      Thanks Chris. Wiseman sort of sounds like it could have been a Anglicized Jewish name.

      Comment

      • Chris G.
        Registered User
        • Apr 2006
        • 12463

        #4
        Hi Chris

        Excellent work, Chris. I would agree with Stan that the name Wiseman sounds as if she may have been born into a Jewish family.

        Chris
        Christopher T. George, Lyricist & Co-Author, "Jack the Musical"
        https://www.facebook.com/JackTheMusical/ Hear sample song at https://tinyurl.com/y8h4envx.

        Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conferences, April 2016 and 2018.
        Hear RipperCon 2016 & 2018 talks at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/.

        Comment

        • Howard Brown
          Registrar
          • Jul 2003
          • 109774

          #5
          Chris:

          Nicely done,amigo....

          I question whether the name is an Anglicized Jewish name, Stan and CG.

          Not that it matters one iota one way or the other....but I recall a discussion which Gareth Williams stepped into and pointed out the surname "Isaac" wasn't necessarily Jewish in Britain.

          I had located someone with that last name ( I believe it was a police constable named so and so Isaac...and I had wanted to point out that he...old so and so...was one example of a Jewish PC ( Richard Brown being another)...or something like that.

          Then,Gareth popped in and told me that it wasn't necessarily Jewish.


          In any event...fine work Chris

          Comment

          • Chris Scott
            Author & Researcher
            • Apr 2008
            • 2613

            #6
            I must be clear that I am not currently saying that Emma Wiseman was Emma Elizabeth Smith. What I am saying is that if the little we know of Smith is factually true then this Wiseman woman is the only one I have found to date who seems to match.
            There is still relevant work to do, mainly -
            1) Did this Emma Smith (née Wiseman) have at least two children, one of each sex?
            2) When was she widowed - did John Smith die before 1888, if so when?
            As and when UI find anything pertinent I will post it here
            Regarding the name, there are, as I understand it, two origins. The English name Wiseman was derived from just that "wise man" and is a very ancient name. The Jewish version is an Anglicised form of Weissman ("white man") from the German.
            It is comparable with the two strains of Barnet(t)s in Whitechapel in the LVP, one Irish and one Jewish.

            Comment

            • Colin Roberts
              Registered User
              • May 2009
              • 682

              #7

              Baptismal Register, Parish of St. Nicholas Deptford, County of Kent, 1840 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

              Comment

              • Chris Scott
                Author & Researcher
                • Apr 2008
                • 2613

                #8
                Hi Colin
                I saw that entry but that Emma Wiseman was born in 1838, five years before the one in which I am interested
                The entry below the one you highlighted is a son of the same parents, a child named James Cameron Wiseman born Jan 28th 1840. Both children were baptised together, a not uncommon occurrence

                Comment

                • Colin Roberts
                  Registered User
                  • May 2009
                  • 682

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Chris Scott
                  ... that Emma Wiseman was born in 1838, five years before the one in which I am interested

                  Census of England & Wales, 1871 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

                  Census of England & Wales, 1871
                  Registration County: Surrey
                  Registration District: St. Olave Southwark
                  Civil Parish: St. Mary Magdalen Bermondsey
                  Registration Sub-District: St. James
                  Enumeration District: 33
                  Page: 60 (2, 3, and 4 Neckinger Road, Parish of St. Mary Magdalen Bermondsey)

                  It may not be a 'perfect' match, Chris, ... but, could there have been two women named Emma Elizabeth Wiseman, of similar age, residing in the immediate vicinity of Neckinger Road, during the 1871-1872 time-frame?

                  Comment

                  • Chris Scott
                    Author & Researcher
                    • Apr 2008
                    • 2613

                    #10
                    Hi Colin
                    I was only going by the baptism record which gave an Old King Street address - I didnt see the Neckinger Road entry - now that IS interesting
                    many thanks for posting

                    Comment

                    • Tom_Wescott
                      Researcher and Award Winning Author
                      • Sep 2003
                      • 5278

                      #11
                      Excellent work, Chris. You may very well be on the right track here, and as someone who's interested in the Smith case, I'll follow the progress with much interest.

                      Yours truly,

                      Tom Wescott

                      Comment

                      • Chris Scott
                        Author & Researcher
                        • Apr 2008
                        • 2613

                        #12
                        Thanks for the help and comments guys:-)

                        Emma Wiseman
                        Born Deptford

                        Baptism record:
                        St Nicholas, Deptford
                        Date of birth: 7 January 1838
                        Baptism date: 13 September 1840
                        Child's Christian names: Emma Elizabeth
                        Parents' Christian name: William and Sarah
                        Surname: Wiseman
                        Abode: 33 Old King Street
                        Profession: Mariner
                        On the same day and place also baptised was Emma's brother, James Cameron Wiseman, born 28 January 1840
                        I have not been able to find a record of the registration of Emma's birth in Deptford in the first quarter of 1838

                        1841:
                        King Street, Deptford
                        Head: John Wiseman aged 45 - Mariner
                        Wife: Sarah Wiseman aged 30
                        Children:
                        William aged 10
                        Sarah aged 8
                        Robert aged 6
                        Emma aged 4
                        James aged 1
                        NB: the baptism record from 1840, which confirms the address, gives the parents names as William and Sarah, but the census record above gives their names as John and Sarah

                        1851:
                        34 Old King Street, Deptford
                        Head: Henry Wells aged 20 born Berkshire - Baker
                        Wife: Emma Wells aged 29 born Middlesex
                        Children:
                        Emma aged 6 born Deptford
                        Ellen aged 4 born Deptford
                        Maria aged 4 months born Deptford
                        Visitor:
                        Emma Wiseman aged 13 born Deptford
                        Servant:
                        Thomas Short aged 20 born London

                        1861
                        Ivy Lodge, Knights Hill Road, Norwood, Lambeth
                        Head: Herbert S Butterfield aged 43 born St Clement Danes - Ship broker's clerk
                        Wife: Louisa S Butterfield aged 37 born Lambeth - Ladies School
                        Also listed:
                        5 children
                        1 Niece
                        3 boarders
                        5 servants
                        1 governess
                        Among the servants is:
                        Emma Wiseman aged 22 born Deptford - Housemaid

                        1871:
                        3 Neckinger Road, Bermondsey
                        Head: Sarah Wiseman aged 62 born Bristol - Wife
                        Children:
                        Emma aged 31 born Deptford - Machinist
                        James aged 29 born Deptford - Sailor
                        Rose aged 21 born deptford - Machinist
                        Ellen aged 7 born Deptford
                        NB: No husband is listed for Sarah. Ellen aged 7 is listed as the daughter of 62 year old Sarah.

                        1872 - Emma marries John Smith
                        Last edited by Chris Scott; August 10, 2011, 01:42 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Phil Carter
                          Author
                          • Nov 2009
                          • 1823

                          #13
                          Hello all,

                          It may have been missed or gone un-noticed, referring to the name "Wiseman" and whether it is of Jewish origin or not, that Ernie Wise, one half of the famous comedy duo Morecambe and Wise, was actually born

                          Ernest Wiseman, b. 1925, d. 1999

                          As far as I can trace, Harry Wiseman, Ernie's father, was not Jewish, and neither was his father again, George Wiseman, nor indeed George's father and grandfather either (whom I believe were both named John Wiseman). However, I am not certain, but there are strong indications he (Ernie) was not of any Jewish origin at all.

                          The family, at least from George onwards, came from Leeds, Yorkshire, where Ernie was born.

                          Just thought I'd add this as an example as How had raised doubts about the Jewish possibility of the name.

                          kindly

                          Phil

                          EDIT;


                          The name Wiseman originates from the Anglo-Saxons. Only comparatively recently has the name become standardised in the English language.
                          It was first found in Essex, where there was a family seat, before and after the time of the Norman Conquests, 1066.

                          You can find out more here..

                          Learn about the Wiseman Family Crest, its Origin and History. Where did the Wiseman surname come from? Where did the family branches go?
                          from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                          Comment

                          • Chris Scott
                            Author & Researcher
                            • Apr 2008
                            • 2613

                            #14
                            Hi Phil
                            Thanks for the useful input.
                            the next stage is proving tricky - namely finding Emma Smith in 1881
                            As I do not yet know the date of her becoming a widow, I don't know if at the time of the 1881 census we are looking for her alone (or with children) or still with her husband John

                            Comment

                            • Phil Carter
                              Author
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 1823

                              #15
                              Hello Chris,

                              I will have a search here too.. its a needle /haystack job with a name like Smith.. but as I was once told.. you don't find needles in haystacks, you find them in sewing pouches. haha

                              kindly

                              Phil
                              from 1905...to 19.05..it was written in the stars

                              Comment

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