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Inquest and Doctors' Reports Forum for discussion of the coroner's reports and inquest reports for the various victims of the Whitechapel Murders, including the observations and autopsy reports by the attending physicians

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Old March 10th, 2015, 05:35 PM   #1
Debra Arif
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Default Dr Hebbert saw 6 victims?

I thought it would be better to continue the Hebbert discussions on a new thread as the previous discussions have been on a photography thread that I'm told some people can't see.

Robert Linford recently located this article on the child murderer Angus Gilbert in the Boston Sunday Post of December 15, 1895

http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.ph...8&postcount=90

In it are some comments on Gilbert's state of mind and possible insanity made by our very own Dr Hebbert who was working in Boston at the time. He compares Gilbert's crime to the 'Whitechapel crimes of Jack the Ripper' and claims to have seen six of those victims. Here's a transcript of Hebbert's comments from the article linked to above:

SAYS HE IS INSANE
Dr Charles A. Hebbert, when interviewed on the subject, [of Gilbert] said:
"I can conceive that that if the man was in a certain epileptic condition that he did not know what he had done until after it was over. "

"It did not appear to me to be a case of sexual mania. The body was mutilated in an entirely different way from murders of that kind. I saw six of the Whitchapel victims of Jack the Ripper. I am somewhat acquainted with crimes of that sort in countries other than England and I can say that those cases, without exception, were totally different from this case. "

While Dr Hebbert would not , in any way criticise anything that occurred during the trial, he admitted that he thought the family history of the prisoner was not considered sufficiently. A man who comes of a family in which there are two insane relatives, two idiots- a man whose father and grandfather were drunkards is able to inherit an insane temperament. The tendency to insanity in such cases is recognised by insurance companies who are very careful about taking risks of that sort.

Dr Hebbert stated very positively that he thinks a case of this sort calls for close examination for some period of time and that it was not possible to pass upon it correctly in the short time the man was under medical examination.
"I don't think the man ought ever to be at large again,"concluded Dr. Hebbert. "It is now a question whether he had better be treated by the discipline of an asylum or prison."

Dr Hebbert was connected for some time with the epilepsy Hospital in St. Johns Wood, London and with the Bethlehem Royal Hospital, the greatest lunacy hospital in the world. By reason of his experience and capacity he is regarded as a high authority on insanity.


I am puzzled which six victims Hebbert may have seen. We know he was present with Dr Bond at the Miller's Court murder and also saw Mylett's autopsy (although she was not mutilated). Rob Clack suggested McKenzie, as Bond saw her body. Hebbert definitely saw and did post mortems on the four 'torso' victims, which he suggested were all dismembered by the same person. Was he including those in his tally?
I suppose seeing the photographs of Catherine Eddowes' mutilations would count as 'seeing' what had been done mutilation-wise.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 05:48 PM   #2
Robert Linford
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Hi Debs

Since he was speaking in the context of sexual mutilation, my guess would be the torsos plus Kelly and McKenzie.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 06:03 PM   #3
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Good idea, Debs....thank you.
If people cannot see Hebbert's photo ( I know JMenges couldn't but not he can ) which Debs posted...let me know.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 06:48 PM   #4
Debra Arif
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Originally Posted by Robert Linford View Post
Hi Debs

Since he was speaking in the context of sexual mutilation, my guess would be the torsos plus Kelly and McKenzie.
Thanks Robert. That was my guess too but I was thinking later that when Bond was asked to review the Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes cases for Anderson he probably would have been shown the Eddowes' sketches and mortuary photographs showing the mutilations and Hebbert as his assistant might have seen them too?
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Old March 10th, 2015, 07:42 PM   #5
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Hi Debs

Yes, it's very possible that he saw the Eddowes pics. But just going on probabilities, 'saw' is more likely to mean 'saw in the flesh.' Of course, he may have simply lost count - I believe Mrs Pankhurst once gave the number of her children as one fewer than the correct number - and that was in a book!
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Old March 10th, 2015, 08:06 PM   #6
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Default no sex

Hello Debs. This is a nice find.

Interesting that he subtracts sex from the equation.

Refreshing.

Cheers.
LC
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Old March 10th, 2015, 08:20 PM   #7
Robert Linford
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Another question is, he says he is acquainted with similar crimes in other countries. I wonder which countries. As far as I know (which isn't much) he went from Britain to the USA, thence to Canada and finally to Australia. So up to 1895, which countries, other than the USA, had he visited?

Maybe by 'acquainted' he means 'read about' but I doubt it.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 11:06 PM   #8
Scott Nelson
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Of the C-5, Hebbert saw only Kelly post-mortem.
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Old March 11th, 2015, 04:15 AM   #9
Debra Arif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Cates View Post
Hello Debs. This is a nice find.

Interesting that he subtracts sex from the equation.

Refreshing.

Cheers.
LC
Hi Lynn,

My reading is that he is comparing the mutialtions of what he feels is the non-sexually motivated crime of Angus Gilbert's murder and mutilation of a child to the sexual crimes of JTR and saying they are quite different? He is suggesting Gilbert may have committed his crime while but have been unaware of what he was doing at the time.
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Old March 11th, 2015, 04:19 AM   #10
Debra Arif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Linford View Post
Another question is, he says he is acquainted with similar crimes in other countries. I wonder which countries. As far as I know (which isn't much) he went from Britain to the USA, thence to Canada and finally to Australia. So up to 1895, which countries, other than the USA, had he visited?

Maybe by 'acquainted' he means 'read about' but I doubt it.
I wonder if he was acquainted with the cases in other countries via the work of people like Laccassagne and Lombrosso etc too.
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