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33. Other Don't agree with any of the preceding 32? Got your own ideas? Tell us about them in here.

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Old April 18th, 2008, 05:19 PM   #1
AP Wolf
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Default 'Evil Spirits in the Bowels'

I must say this is the most convincing motive I have yet seen in connection with the Whitechapel Murders, that a very insane man feels that he has animals, reptiles and 'evil spirits' in his bowels, buys a razor... and then slits a girl's throat to let those evil spirits out.
Might not make sense to you and me, but it sure made sense to him.

THOMAS JOSEPH HABERFIELD, Breaking Peace > wounding, 22nd October 1888.

Reference Number: t18881022-1006
Offence: Breaking Peace > wounding
Verdict: Guilty > insane
Punishment: Imprisonment > insanity


See original http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/i/genericThumb.jpg
1006. THOMAS JOSEPH HABERFIELD (64) , Feloniously wounding Jane Haberfield with intent to murder MR. BROMBY Prosecuted; MR. GEOGHEGAN Defended.
JANE HABERFIELD . I am the prisoner's daughter, and lived with him in the Kennington Road—On the morning of 13th September, when I came down, he was standing leaning on the mantel piece—he had been very ill for some time—I said "Good morning"—he said very faintly "I am no better"—I had a cup of tea and was putting on my boots when he came behind me, as I thought to kiss me, he put his arm around my throat, and I felt something sharp—he has always been a most kind father to all of us, and never said a cross word—we never had a quarrel—a doctor came and attended to me; I am quite recovered.
Cross-examined. For 18 months he suffered great pain—he could not sleep—he has taken chloral regularly from the 29th April—he has always been a most kind father.
FRANK WILLIAM PARR . I am a surgeon, of 175, Kennington Road—I have known the prisoner for some time, and have attended him professionally—he has been decidedly of unsound mind for the last 18 months—he has delusions that he has reptiles and animals inside him—in my opinion he was not dangerous—I attended the daughter on 13th September—she had an incised wound 2¾ inches in length, 11/4 inch deep, it was a dangerous wound; she has quite recovered—I saw the prisoner, he said he had cut his daughter's throat with a razor, lie did not know what possessed him to do it, he had bought the razor for himself not for his daughter, he supposed it must have been the evil spirits in his sleep.
Cross-examined. Before he came to me as a patient he had consulted at least 20 other doctors—the chloral he had been taking for some time was a prescription he had from somebody else.
By the COURT. In my opinion at the time he did this act he was not responsible for his actions—I have not seen him since.
JOHN HUTCHTNS (Policeman L 18) I went to the prisoner's house on the morning of 13th September, and arrested him—I asked what was the matter—he said "I have cut my dear daughter's throat, I don't know "what possessed me to do so"—at the station he said "I bought the razor as I had evil spirits in my bowels, to cut them open with it.
PHILIP FRANCIS GILBERT . I am the doctor at the House of Detention—the risoner has been under my care since 13th September—I have had repeated interviews with him—he is better than he was, still I do not consider him safe now, he is subject to delusions.


See original http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/i/genericThumb.jpg
GUILTY of the act but insane at the time. To be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure.
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Old April 18th, 2008, 07:18 PM   #2
Howard Brown
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Jeez O' Man, A.P. !!

He took chloral hydrate too.

I wonder if chloral hydrate has the same effect other stimulants like methamphetamine or benzedrine do.

Anyone know?
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Old April 18th, 2008, 07:36 PM   #3
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Hi How! I remember looking at the abuse of chloral in another thread here recently, I am posting a piece from the source - Victorian's Secret http://drugs.uta.edu/drugs.html

"Today depressants such as chloral hydrate are packaged with labels warning against the danger of mixing these kinds of sedatives with alcohol or other depressants. We now know that a mixture of morphine and alcohol, for example, is likely to bring about an episode of psychosis in the user, and morphine mixed with Valium is such a deadly combination that it is sometimes used to euthanize critically ill patients."
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Old April 18th, 2008, 07:40 PM   #4
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Dear Raven:

Thanks very much for this link.

You know,I think I did read something about the effects chloral when mixed with alcohol.....I should have,since Stephenson used them to stave off the d.t.'s ( Yet we have been told he was not an alcoholic, but a "soaker".).....

Thanks again !!

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Old April 18th, 2008, 07:44 PM   #5
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Ouch !

Raven...I did read something about that. Nina wrote an article in Ripperologist back in late 2004 and mentioned it. I just got walloped for forgetting that.

Her article mentions the "Mickey Finn" which was chloral and alcohol.

I'm wondering what chloral and something else...say, arsenic, would produce in a person.

If arsenic was the 19th century poor man's Viagra, then maybe it could produce frenzy in a man if mixed with chloral. What do you think?
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Old April 18th, 2008, 07:59 PM   #6
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Check this out:

"Despite the abuse and mis-administration of the sedative, chloral hydrate did fulfill a need for a drug that would ease sleeplessness due to pain or insomnia and is considered a positive medical discovery. At therapeutic doses (and without the introduction of alcohol and other depressants), chloral produces few negative side effects and is competent in promoting sleep. Although chloral hydrate is still encountered today, its use has declined with the introduction of other barbiturates."

Stephenson claimed that he suffered from restlessness ( which probably covered sleeplessness as well ) when he went in the LH in July of 1888.

He had been shot 20 years ( almost to the day ) earlier in the thigh...possibly giving him pain on a near constant level. He wasn't getting younger and you know how it is when you get near 50.

Now...what IF he was already addicted to chloral and used the excuse that he was restless in order to get more chloral, which they may have administered in small doses ?

Because he WAS diagnosed nearly a yeat later with chloral abuse problems.
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Old April 19th, 2008, 05:53 AM   #7
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Hi How,
I think Chloral would have been widely available on over the counter in a variety of different preparations, I have trawled through 100's of google searches, but cannot find how arsenic would have acted with chloral - Perhaps Lars could find out for us?
I does, however make you wonder, if using some bizarre patent medicine or perhaps mixing your own formula, could bring about a level of psychosis necessary for the murder of Kelly (for example)
If you look at this modern article on the effects of PCP, it may not be stretching the imagination too much.....
The effects of PCP can be very unpredictable. Central Nervous System effects can include euphoria, loss of inhibitions, anxiety, disorientation, restlessness, drowsiness, or disorganized thinking. There can also be distorted time, space, and body sensations, feelings of weightlessness, paranoia, and the feeling of being disassociated with the environment. The user can experience audial and visual hallucinations as with LSD. In the body, PCP raises the heart rate and blood pressure. It can also cause excess salivation, sweating, numbness, staggering, slurred speech, fever, and muscle rigidity.
In toxic doses, the user can become hostile and violent, acting in a bizarre or psychotic manner. They may attempt to assault other people, or to harm themselves through self-mutilation or suicide. The person may experience amnesia and become catatonic. In high doses, there may be coma, convusions, and death. Persons who've received toxic doses must often be restrained and receive tranquilizers to calm them down.
Many users report profound after-effects ranging from depression, disassociative states, confusion, paranoia, and feelings of insanity. By some reports, these symptoms can continue for years after the initial experience.
Special Characteristics: PCP is often sold as a substitute for other drugs, causing panic in unsuspecting users.
Fact: Even in low doses, PCP produces harmful psychological effects. One dose may produce physical effects that last for months.
http://www.cmcsb.com/pcpangel.htm


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Old April 19th, 2008, 06:45 AM   #8
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Dear Raven:

Thats exactly what I meant and should have said more clearly before....about a certain or specific combination ( chloral and ?) that would create a new or different effect that taking chloral alone would not create.

I doubt that taking chloral and a drug from the barbituate class would create such an effect since barbituates are debilitating.

I never thought about this to this extent before, Raven. Thanks for bringing some of the ideas up in my head and your searching Google for more info....and of course, thanks to A.P. for the original post.
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Old April 19th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #9
AP Wolf
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No worries, How.
I have always felt that something chemical was at the root of such crimes, mercury or chlorate etc; and it looks to me that this sudden and bizarro behaviour is often an indication of such chemical abuse on the part of the killer. In the LVP and even now.
I think of Richard Chase here of course, and Thomas Cutbush.
But what is important - and not just in the case above but in many others I have read - is that the attacker always appears to be unaware of the serious and tragic consequences of his murderous rage and attack, and makes no attempt at escape, often gives himself up, or just sits in a daze at the scene of the crime. This does seem to be very typical to this type of chemical inspired attacks on women and children.
Now obviously this did not happen in the crimes we refer to as the Whitechapel Murders, nor in the Torso murders of the same period... so this could be a very useful diagnostic tool or device, showing that both the Whitechapel Murderer, and the Torso murderers, were operating in a more rational frame of mind using calculation and smoke and mirrors.
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