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33. Other Don't agree with any of the preceding 32? Got your own ideas? Tell us about them in here.

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Old January 24th, 2009, 08:16 PM   #11
Celesta
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How,

Blitz killer, as in women thrown to the ground and eventually having their throats cut? As in possibly Liz Stride, Susan Ward, and possibly Frances Coles?
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Old January 24th, 2009, 10:18 PM   #12
Howard Brown
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Cellie:

As in possibly Nichols and Eddowes....Chapman being the Ubangi in the fuel supply for that theory to work.

What do you think of it?
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Old January 25th, 2009, 01:48 PM   #13
Celesta
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You don't think Cadosch represented a potential threat because Jack could deal with him. The fact that it was already getting light and that people, not just Cadosch, were stirring made Jack more stealthy than he might have been otherwise. He accomplished what he wanted and moved out before he could be caught. If you look at it this way and not from the point of view of where she was killed then why is Annie necessarily the "Ubangi"?

Do you remember how old Albert Cadosch was? I've been looking through my books here, and I haven't found one yet that gives his age. I desperately need an A to Z but they are so expensive.

When you mentioned "blitz" I thought of Liz Stride and her noisy attacker. Sarah ward was attacked in a similar way. The coroner thought that Coles had been knocked to her knees. These fall into the same box, so to speak, from this aspect. They could just be situations in which he didn't have the chance to 'satisfy his curiosity.'
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Old January 25th, 2009, 02:41 PM   #14
Howard Brown
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Cellie:

Cadosch could have presented a threat if he started yelling at the top of his lungs or did something to get others attention to what was going on in 29. I just feel that the Ripper would have confronted Cadosh instead of slithering away like I feel many people do.

I think that after the Ripper began mutilating Chapman, that this was the first time he had been that close to being seen in the act of murder. In the Stride murder...assuming that the BSMan was her killer and I for one do...he was not in the act of murder,obviously, but did commit murder shortly after the spotting by Schwartz.

The reason I lean toward Chapman's murder being the fly in the ointment is because in that case we have a witness who claimed to have seen them both near 29 in the midst of some dialogue. This doesn't qualify to be considered a "blitzing" style of murder in the sense that I envision since its highly likely that Mrs. Long did see them just prior to Annie's death.

Stride's murder scene...where her killer( to me) lost his temper and despite being seen,carried out the murder he had intended to in the first place...yet doesn't complete the intended mutilation for one reason or the other. Its similar to a blitzing in that there's no small talk...no pre-game warmup,so to speak,between the participants....just blood and death shortly afterwards.

So...and this is just my feeling at this point in time...that the perception of these women being absolutely in the act of solicitation....maybe one or two were...maybe just one...and maybe they all were...should be left open to debate.

Yes,Nichols needed money and she was not out at 12 midnight begging for dosh or busking on the streets that late. She may have been out with the intent of solicitation,just as likely as she may have been sleeping on the sidewalk on Bucks Row and just as likely as she may have been blitzed from out of the dark by the Ripper. I see no one thing which pushes me in any specific direction to assume one over the other.

Stride may very well have been waiting for one specific individual,since she was seen to turn away at least one individual's advances. Thats what I think happened in her case. I think the Ripper approached her to take her inside the Yard...she balked...he flipped...he tosses her down...he waits for her to get up...drags her into the Yard and whacks her. A blitzing of sorts.

Eddowes may very well have simply gone to Mitre Square since it was known as one of the many trolling places for clients and prosses. There's no guarantee that Eddowes & The Ripper were seen by Lawende. In the instance that Lawende saw a woman and a man...the women of the time looked similar in the dark and in the daytime. Take a photo or look at old reels of film with women of that period and then afterwards try to remember one distinguishing feature of one woman. I tried and its hard since they all dressed pretty much alike. By the way,Lawende did not mention an apron, but a black bonnet and black jacket. I'd think the apron would stand out in my mind.

I suppose "blitz" could mean more than one thing to a number of people,Cellie. I just don't know what to make of the attack on Tabram,which had to take 30 seconds and upwards...without any audible noise emanating from Tabram....Nichols killed without a prior sighting with a man...Chapman being a "problem" for this theory....Stride and Nichols as previously mentioned being possibly "blitz" type killings.

Back to you,Cellie....I have to go for now.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 04:21 PM   #15
Sam Flynn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celesta View Post
Do you remember how old Albert Cadosch was?
He'd have been 28 or 29 years old in 1888, Cel. He was born in Paris around 1860.

Albert's sons were later to join the British Army. I've got copies of their service records somewhere...
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Old January 25th, 2009, 04:34 PM   #16
Celesta
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[
I see. I was concentrating on what was going on in the backyard. Instead of a blitz killer, Long saw a quietly talking couple. Very different from what Schwartz saw. A blitz killer would likely have confronted Albert, instead of running the other way, had Albert investigated what he heard. The guy who attacked Liz certainly accosted more than one person in a very short time.

You've got a good point here with Lawende and the apron. I have always visualized this as white, probably incorrectly. A light colored apron would have stood out more than any other article of her clothing. It's also very true about women's clothing. Women of that era looked as anonymous as Moslem women do today, in terms of their clothing being so alike.

As for Tabram, I think he bonked her on the head. Doesn't rule out anything.

Best,

Cel
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Old January 25th, 2009, 04:39 PM   #17
Celesta
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Bless you, Sam. I was going through everything I had and looking through some of the dissertations, too.

28 or 29 is about what I thought.

Thanks!
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Old January 25th, 2009, 04:47 PM   #18
Sam Flynn
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Default Fred Albert Cadosch ("Cadoche")

Not such an illustrious military career! The following appear on Fred's record between 1902 and 1904 (he'd enlisted giving his trade as "postman").

Squadron, Troop, Battery and Company Defaulter Book

Driver FRED ALBERT CADOSCH (Army Service Corps)

Absent from tattoo till 10:00 PM.
Absent from tatoo till 11:45 AM the 20th inst.
Improperly dressed in New Road (Woolwich) about 10PM when on Theatre Leave.
Absent from tatoo till 10:15 PM.
Absent from tatoo till 12:10 AM the 20th inst.
Having a light on in 77 Barack Room after lights-out.
Absent from Church Parade at 09:30 AM till found in his barrack room at 10AM.
Behaving in a disorderly manner in the streets (reported by police constable).
Committing a nuisance in barracks about 8:45 PM.
When ordered to clean windows did not do so.
Absent from battallion till 10:05 PM.
Absent off pass from 12 midnight until 05:30 AM.
Not going to the stables when ordered.
Gambling in latrine.
Dirty gloves when parading for duty.
Not cleaning his harness properly for inspection.
Taking horse (Army No. 34029) out of the stables without permission and galoping [sic.] about the barracks.
Using obscene language outside the stables during the stable hour.
Absent from tattoo till 08:20AM 13-4-04
Absent from tatoo til 10:15 PM.
Absent from tatoo till 11:30 PM.
Drunk [underlined!] & creating a disturbance in camp about 09:45 PM.
Absent from tatoo till 10:30 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 05:07 PM   #19
Sam Flynn
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Default His bro' didn't fare much better!

HERBERT CADOSCH (Army Service Corps)

Absent from tatoo till 10:15 AM. Drunk on returning to Barracks.
Absent from tatoo after being refused a pass till 12:05 PM.Drunk returning to Barracks about 11:15 AM.
Bringing liquor into Barracks contrary to Orders.
Creating a disturbance in the Guard Room.
21st March 1908 - Awaiting trial. Convicted of (1) Neglect to obey orders for drivers when on duty; (2) Using threatening language to his superior officer. Forfeit 1 G.B. Badge. In detention.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 06:21 PM   #20
Howard Brown
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These records on Cadosch are much appreciated Sam. Thank you.

Cadosch claimed to be a postman, but unless I am wrong he was a carpenter or in that field in some form,wasn't he,Sam?
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