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Mary Kelly Not just killed, but destroyed, and more mystery than you can shake a stick at.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 09:10 PM   #1
Anna Morris
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Default Mary Jane Tischer?

We all know that right after Mary's murder was discovered the press said her name was Lizzie Fischer but her friends called her Mary Jane.

Today I found a number of reports in the U.S. papers of the time which expanded on this and said her name was Tischer. A search on this Forum for the name Tischer turns up nothing so I will proceed for what it's worth. I clipped one of these paragraphs but it didn't copy so I can't post it.

Some reports say, "Lizzie Fischer or rather Tischer," with Tischer in italics. Other reports say Tischer or Tisher. One included the name Lawrence but then said her name was really Tisher.

So I looked at genealogy databases I use and found there were a few Tischers in England at the time. There are several spellings. Some of these people were from Holland or had Dutch names. Some were German. Others were probably English and another spelling is Titcher which may be different in origin than Tischer.

And that's it. It probably means nothing but since Mary had a number of Dutch friends, I'll toss out the information.
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Old March 17th, 2017, 12:39 PM   #2
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Anna,

I know everyone, including myself, are looking for any link for possible Mary Jane Kelly candidates to the Dutch Morgensterns, but I'm beginning to think MJK's path to Breezer's Hill is simpler and more straight forward if she's from England/Wales.

Being an independent woman, she could just have gravitated to the low rent/doss districts and met whoever, in this case Morgenstern.

Obvious to me but maybe something others are still in denial about, Mary would have "descended" to the Dock area, not because of the sailors and soldiers but because of the moneyed classes, merchants and other businessmen, who would also be there. She would have independence and chances to escort the rich, every once in a while hooking up with a partner she liked.

It's interesting to me that the Morgensterns are descended from servants of military officers and Mary found her place with them. Maybe it was because they treated her like a queen.
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Old March 17th, 2017, 01:00 PM   #3
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Even so, if there is anything to the name Tischer, which I doubt, she could have picked up the name in this area. Could she have lived with someone of that name or worked for them?

I found the comments on this name to be interesting because the name "Fischer" was supposedly being corrected. We have had the idea that someone in the crowd at Millers Court gave out the name Lizzie Fischer, likely in error and the press ran with it. I have no idea where anybody got the idea to say the name was really Tischer or Tisher.

These new names are something we can look for in research. If it was someone else in Millers Court at the time then we have learned something new. Fischer/Tischer/Tisher figure in the tale of Mary having a little boy who was taken to the neighbor's, etc. Could a woman named Tischer have had a little boy in the court but in the end it had nothing to do with MJK? Possible.
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Old March 17th, 2017, 01:38 PM   #4
Jerry Dunlop
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Originally Posted by Anna Morris View Post
Even so, if there is anything to the name Tischer, which I doubt, she could have picked up the name in this area. Could she have lived with someone of that name or worked for them?

I found the comments on this name to be interesting because the name "Fischer" was supposedly being corrected. We have had the idea that someone in the crowd at Millers Court gave out the name Lizzie Fischer, likely in error and the press ran with it. I have no idea where anybody got the idea to say the name was really Tischer or Tisher.

These new names are something we can look for in research. If it was someone else in Millers Court at the time then we have learned something new. Fischer/Tischer/Tisher figure in the tale of Mary having a little boy who was taken to the neighbor's, etc. Could a woman named Tischer have had a little boy in the court but in the end it had nothing to do with MJK? Possible.
Hi Anna,

I'm pretty sure the boy in the court ended up being Maria Harvey's son. IIRC Rob C. found a news article stating this.

I have looked and can't find anything on the name "Tischer" in the papers. I will keep looking for that reference in regard to MJK, though.
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Old March 17th, 2017, 01:49 PM   #5
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Hi Jerry. I agree that the little boy was probably Maria Harvey's. Considering all the different names people had, maybe Tischer fits in somewhere, or not.

Some sources seemed to describe Julia Vanturney as "German" but research seems to show she was an English woman who had married a foreign man, if I have it right. I wonder if Tischer could fit in here somewhere.
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Old March 17th, 2017, 02:29 PM   #6
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I thought the name Phoenix surely fit in somewhere too.

I still don't know if it was the reporter who got Felix wrong or Elizabeth was the one who gave him the Phoenix idea.

Maybe she wanted to keep the Felixes out of it. And came up with the pun.
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Old March 17th, 2017, 03:36 PM   #7
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I thought the name Phoenix surely fit in somewhere too.

I still don't know if it was the reporter who got Felix wrong or Elizabeth was the one who gave him the Phoenix idea.

Maybe she wanted to keep the Felixes out of it. And came up with the pun.
In basic modern journalism, the student is taught to ask for correct spellings of names, no matter how awkward it may be to get them. This is an absolute rule of good journalism.

In 1888 I think the reporters took a good guess. A number of the population signed with an X and it is doubtful asking for a spelling would have been very helpful.

I researched the Phoenix/Felix name a few years back and came up with all what you have presented here. Fenwick/Phoenix/Felix.

People in England pronounce things a bit different that we do here. We would say PHEEN-ix and FEEL-ix. If the British pronunciation was FELL-ix and PHEN-ix I can see where Fenwick comes in. I could imagine the British pronunciation of Fenwick sounding like fennec, the fluffy, little yellow Arabian desert fox.

But then Elizabeth Felix was found living with Adrianus and Anna. I still have some questions about this but ultimately accept the findings of great researchers who dedicated much time and effort into putting this together.
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