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Points To Ponder A forum filled with rehashed ideas, overlooked & often original theories, and newspaper articles from days gone by.

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Old September 11th, 2016, 10:58 AM   #1
Anna Morris
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Default Mrs. Buki, Mrs. Carthy

I am not sure I can explain what I am thinking. I am pondering whether Mrs. Buki/Boeku and Mrs. Carthy are the same women. If they are not, I wonder if Mrs. Carthy was a Morgenstern wife and the reason she hasn't exactly been located is because her husband/partner at the time was a Morgenstern, not a Mr. (Mc)Carthy.

Some of my pondering has to do with geography but I am the WORST one to try to understand or explain that. To me the East End streets resemble a rabbit warren. That said, Mary Kelly's life in the vicinity of the Ratcliff Highway, according to Mrs. Felix and Mrs. Carthy, began in a thoroughfare off the highway. 'Thanet Advertiser'. 17/11/88 said, "From St. Georges Street she went to lodge with Mrs. Carthy at Breezers Hill, Pennington Street."

From the various sources, including Barnett, we believe Mary lived in this area with a Mrs. Buki, a man named Morgenstern and a Mrs. Carthy. (Let's not go into the man in the building trade.)

The Sheldens seem to have found the elusive Mrs. Buki, identifying her as Mrs. Boeku which was the maiden name of Johannes Morgenstern's wife, as I understand it. In a recent Casebook thread (If Mary Kelly really WAS a prostitute, post #106), it says: Breezers Hill had four houses, #4 nearest St. George Street, #1 adjacent to 79 Pennington Street. Johannes Morgenstern used the address 79 Pennington Street as found on school registrations for his kids.

Mrs. Felix, Adrianus Morgenstern's wife, said Mary went to live with her sister-in-law Mrs. Carthy at "Breezers Hill, Pennington Street." That describes 79 Pennington Street, does it not?

This is about the time someone will say there was another Morgenstern in the area, in addition to Adrianus and Johannes. There was a Maran Morgenstern I have tried to trace in the records. I could never see that he was married. Could Mrs. Buki have been his wife or ended up living with him? What were his addresses at the time?

Mrs. Felix called Mrs. Carthy sister-in-law. The press coverage of Mrs. Buki doesn't seem to be attributed to a source. As we know she was never interviewed, located, etc. We don't seem to have any direct knowledge from Felix or Carthy about Mrs. Buki. If she was a Morgenstern wife, could we expect Mrs. Felix to call her sister-in-law? What little we have on Mrs. Buki must come from Felix and Carthy.

What I see as possible importance here is an answer to who was Mrs. Carthy? The Mary McCarthy who had unfortunates on the census in 1891 has not seemed to fit the story. Then there are questions about John McCarthy, 13 Millers Court landlord, having a special connexion with Mary, that he let her go very much in debt. Did any of John's relatives live with/marry a Morgenstern? Perhaps a Johannes Morgenstern?

Was Buki/Boeku a name that Mrs. Carthy used for business, as a landlady or otherwise? Mrs. Buki helped retrieve Mary's "costly dresses". Perhaps not since the story seems to run that Mary drank so much that Mrs. Buki kicked her out. From there she went to Mrs. Carthy. If this was all in one family, why would another branch of the family take her in if her record was bad?

We get the idea Mary lived "with" Mrs. Buki but perhaps Buki was a landlord for a property where Mary rented a room? There are all sorts of possibilities.

Is Mary's story mixed up? Am I even making sense here?
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Old September 11th, 2016, 11:18 AM   #2
Gary Barnett
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Anna,

Thanks for posting that. I bought the Sheldens book in E format and somehow lost it, so the details are a bit vague.

This may help with the geography. Breezer's Hill ran (runs) between Pennington Street (south) and the Ratcliffe Highway, which in the 1880s was called St George Street (north).

79 PS is shown here as a pub (PH).

I don't think 'Breezer's Hill, Pennington Street' necessarily means on the corner of the two streets, it follows the common practice of adding the name of a larger, better known street to that of a small street to make it more easily identifiable, just as you might say Dorset Street, Commercial Street or George Yard, Whitechapel High Street.

I'm revisiting BH at the moment, trying to get a handle on whether any of the houses has a stronger claim to having been a brothel in the mid-1880s than the others. I suspect that at one time or another between, say, 1881 and 1911, they all were houses of ill repute and that there was a significant turnover of occupants.

If what I come up with has any value, I'll start a new thread for it. It might get buried in The Ratcliffe Highway one (which probably has tumbleweed blowing through it these days).

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Old September 11th, 2016, 11:52 AM   #3
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Anna,

Thanks for posting that. I bought the Sheldens book in E format and somehow lost it, so the details are a bit vague.

This may help with the geography. Breezer's Hill ran (runs) between Pennington Street (south) and the Ratcliffe Highway, which in the 1880s was called St George Street (north).

79 PS is shown here as a pub (PH).

I don't think 'Breezer's Hill, Pennington Street' necessarily means on the corner of the two streets, it follows the common practice of adding the name of a larger, better known street to that of a small street to make it more easily identifiable, just as you might say Dorset Street, Commercial Street or George Yard, Whitechapel High Street.

I'm revisiting BH at the moment, trying to get a handle on whether any of the houses has a stronger claim to have been a brothel in the mid-1880s than the others. I suspect that at one time or another between, say, 1881 and 1911, they all were houses of ill repute and that there was a significant turnover of occupants.

If what I come up with has any value, I'll start a new thread for it. It might get buried in The Ratcliffe Highway one (which probably has tumbleweed blowing through it these days).

Gary


Attachment 16870
It's all practically in one block! No matter how Mary misbehaved, she relocated through a very small area. It does cross my mind...I am pondering...if Mary was moving from house of ill repute to house of ill repute? Maybe Mrs. Buki had a bit of notoriety and thus she was never found or interviewed. Maybe the name was only partly correct. Mrs. Felix told a respectable sounding story to the press, that Mary went to live with sister-in-law Mrs. Carthy. There are stray reports that the Morgensterns had some involvement in prostitution.

(Interestingly it is easier to find Marie Jeanettes in records from the Netherlands than in many other places. I think of The Netherlands as protestant, Reformed Dutch Church, but they sure liked to keep records in Latin.)

Wickerman made post #106 which said, #1 (Breezers Hill) was "adjacent to 79 Pennington St." This gave me the idea it was a corner house.

I had forgotten about linking smaller streets to bigger ones. We don't do that in the US. I suppose more of our cities were planned on grid type systems and the rabbit warren appearance is not common.
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Last edited by Anna Morris; September 11th, 2016 at 12:04 PM. Reason: correction
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Old September 11th, 2016, 12:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
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It's all practically in one block! No matter how Mary misbehaved, she relocated through a very small area. It does cross my mind...I am pondering...if Mary was moving from house of ill repute to house of ill repute? Maybe Mrs. Buki had a bit of notoriety and thus she was never found or interviewed. Maybe the name was only partly correct. Mrs. Felix told a respectable sounding story to the press, that Mary went to live with sister-in-law Mrs. Carthy. There are stray reports that the Morgensterns had some involvement in prostitution.

(Interestingly it is easier to find Marie Jeanettes in records from the Netherlands than in many other places. I think of The Netherlands as protestant, Reformed Dutch Church, but they sure liked to keep records in Latin.)

Wickerman made post #106 which said, #1 (Breezers Hill) was "adjacent to 79 Pennington St. This gave me the idea it was a corner house.

I had forgotten about linking smaller streets to bigger ones. We don't do that in the US. I suppose more of our cities were planned on grid type systems and the rabbit warren appearance is not common.
Did the Sheldens identify Mrs Felix's maiden name?
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Old September 11th, 2016, 12:41 PM   #5
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From information packed post #106:

(If Boeku was a maiden name for Johannes' wife, it could also be the name of relatives by blood or marriage. Even so, it could yet indicate that Mrs. Carthy was wife, common law or otherwise, to Johannes. We COULD be back to figuring out the name Carthy which could have been a number of things including Caffy, Cathy, Cary....endless possibilities if we don't insist upon the Mary McCarthy of 1891 being THE Mrs. Carthy, sister-in-law of Mrs. Felix.)
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Old September 11th, 2016, 12:42 PM   #6
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Wasn't it Elizabeth Phoenix who stated that MJK had once lived at her brother in law's house? That would be correct for the relationship between Adrianus' wife, Elizabeth Felix and Johanes' Morgenstern who lived with his wife Elizabeth Boueki (sp?) at 79 Pennington St.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 12:45 PM   #7
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From information packed post #106:

(If Boeku was a maiden name for Johannes' wife, it could also be the name of relatives by blood or marriage. Even so, it could yet indicate that Mrs. Carthy was wife, common law or otherwise, to Johannes. We COULD be back to figuring out the name Carthy which could have been a number of things including Caffy, Cathy, Cary....endless possibilities if we don't insist upon the Mary McCarthy of 1891 being THE Mrs. Carthy, sister-in-law of Mrs. Felix.)
The Shelden's gave the former Mrs Boeku's maiden name but I forget what it was now but it also began with a B I think.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 01:28 PM   #8
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Eliesabeth Morgenstern, late Boekü, formerly Bluma.

Shelden, Neal. Mary Jane Kelly and the Victims of Jack the Ripper: The 125th Anniversary (Kindle Location 582). . Kindle Edition.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 01:30 PM   #9
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Debs:

The name you're looking for is Bluma.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 01:38 PM   #10
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Debs, How,

Thank you both.

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