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The Torsos Bodies and body parts found in the Thames River as well as in other locations prior to, during, and after the more celebrated Whitechapel Murders

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Old June 16th, 2017, 06:33 PM   #1
Howard Brown
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Default General Question Concerning The 'Whitehall Mystery'

Does anyone have an opinion regarding the Whitehall Mystery...whether it it was a 'one off'...connected to the other Torsos......or part of the Ripper series ?

Thank you.
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Old June 17th, 2017, 10:01 AM   #2
Anna Morris
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Nobody has commented yet. I haven't commented because I really don't have an answer but I do have a point to make.

First I doubt any of the torsos were directly connected to JtR.

I think Whitehall may be connected to other torsos that were left in public places, surely to create outrage and get attention. That is the commonality more than method of killing, etc., IMO

The deeper we dig into murder in general the more we see killers doing similar things. Walter Turner in Yorkshire did things similar to the torso cases, to his known child victim and possibly an earlier victim. He was at least a good part of the way to creating body parts. (If he did not kill Johnny Gill then there were two extremely perverted child killers in a three year period in a fairly small area.)

Most of us cringe at the thought of dismembering a body but once the line of perversion is crossed it seems anything goes. Sane people want to connect the dots to find one or two perverted killers. Sadly it seems there are more of these creeps operating at any one time than sane people want to contemplate.

Then taking into account the practical restrictions of the LVP, cutting up unwanted bodies makes sense. Folks didn't have cars to transport and dump whole bodies. Maybe bodies were reduced to torsos and other parts more frequently than we know, maybe even bodies that died of natural causes. Except Whitehall, Pinchin Street and a few others seem to be calculated to get maximum attention and outrage.
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Old August 25th, 2017, 04:27 PM   #3
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Nobody has commented yet. I haven't commented because I really don't have an answer but I do have a point to make.

First I doubt any of the torsos were directly connected to JtR.

I think Whitehall may be connected to other torsos that were left in public places, surely to create outrage and get attention. That is the commonality more than method of killing, etc., IMO

The deeper we dig into murder in general the more we see killers doing similar things. Walter Turner in Yorkshire did things similar to the torso cases, to his known child victim and possibly an earlier victim. He was at least a good part of the way to creating body parts. (If he did not kill Johnny Gill then there were two extremely perverted child killers in a three year period in a fairly small area.)

Most of us cringe at the thought of dismembering a body but once the line of perversion is crossed it seems anything goes. Sane people want to connect the dots to find one or two perverted killers. Sadly it seems there are more of these creeps operating at any one time than sane people want to contemplate.

Then taking into account the practical restrictions of the LVP, cutting up unwanted bodies makes sense. Folks didn't have cars to transport and dump whole bodies. Maybe bodies were reduced to torsos and other parts more frequently than we know, maybe even bodies that died of natural causes. Except Whitehall, Pinchin Street and a few others seem to be calculated to get maximum attention and outrage.
I disagree that the Torso Killer and the Ripper are 2 different killers. The idea that two different serial killers were operating at that time in London killing prostitutes and both of the killers were taking the uterus from their victims is too much for me to believe.
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Old August 26th, 2017, 02:23 AM   #4
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I disagree that the Torso Killer and the Ripper are 2 different killers. The idea that two different serial killers were operating at that time in London killing prostitutes and both of the killers were taking the uterus from their victims is too much for me to believe.
I see your point and it could be so.

However a hallmark of the torso killer was complete dismemberment and distribution of body parts, apparently with intent to shock. JtR, even in the privacy of Mary's room, failed to perform that type of dismemberment. He did plenty with soft tissue but did not sever completely, any part of the skeleton. If he was the torso killer mightn't he have at least decapitated her? Or taken an arm or leg, even foot or hand, to distribute somewhere? Think of the shock value of that!

That said, it does seem the killings should be linked someway. Since I operate from the idea of two killers, I wonder if they knew each other, if one set of crimes encouraged the other, if they were competing with each other for publicity and attention?
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Old August 27th, 2017, 01:55 AM   #5
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I see your point and it could be so.

However a hallmark of the torso killer was complete dismemberment and distribution of body parts, apparently with intent to shock. JtR, even in the privacy of Mary's room, failed to perform that type of dismemberment. He did plenty with soft tissue but did not sever completely, any part of the skeleton. If he was the torso killer mightn't he have at least decapitated her? Or taken an arm or leg, even foot or hand, to distribute somewhere? Think of the shock value of that!

That said, it does seem the killings should be linked someway. Since I operate from the idea of two killers, I wonder if they knew each other, if one set of crimes encouraged the other, if they were competing with each other for publicity and attention?
No reason to dismember if he wasn't dumping. Which brings up a question I have for Debs. Do you think MJK is a dismemberment gone array? Do you think the dismemberment of the torso victims was done to hinder identification?
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Old September 3rd, 2017, 08:27 PM   #6
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Does anyone have an opinion regarding the Whitehall Mystery...whether it it was a 'one off'...connected to the other Torsos......or part of the Ripper series ?

Thank you.
Not only connected to the other torsos but IMHO more than likely to the ripper also. Post mortem mutilating serial killers are rare, but ones that remove internal organs rarer still, and the similarities are more than the differences to me.

Same victimology
Same general area
Same time frame
Same SIG
Flaps of skin removed from abdomen in 2 ripper cases and one torso

As I've often said perhaps the torso cases are when he could bring victims to his place, and the ripper ones where when he couldnt and had to kill on the streets. The apparent difference of dismemberment was then just in ease of removal from his place.

I also see ritualistic elements in both cases involving the removal and keeping of certain body parts and also how bodies and parts that were left where displayed.
There also seems to be a desire to shock and or taunt the police in that there seems no real overt attempt to hide and or completely get rid of the bodies..but that they should be found and shockingly so.
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Old September 3rd, 2017, 09:18 PM   #7
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It would be interesting if there were good torso killer suspects, to learn if any of them had either lost his lodgings or had unstable living arrangements during the JtR spree. For example if financial issues or loss of a job caused the killer to be homeless or if a wife kicked him out, etc. Some of the killings overlap but maybe the torso killer sometimes had a place to to what he did and sometimes not.

Walter Turner the child killer in Yorkshire, used his mother's home. What if mommy kicked him out and he wanted to go on killing? His mother was peculiar too so this sort of scenario makes some sense.
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