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Old February 2nd, 2017, 07:48 PM   #1
Anna Morris
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Default Marie Jeanette & Muddle Ponderings

(Title should read "Muddled Ponderings". Oh well, can't change it now.);-)

After rereading some sources my basic idea got a little muddled but I think there could be a somewhat new direction of research with the original thought. Barnett saying MJK's real name was Marie Jeanette, and seeing this name carried through to her death certificate alongside Mary Jane, always struck me as this name being more than a brothel name or pet name. It is also too French in nature to be a Latin spelling on an Irish Catholic birth registration IMO.

From both Barnett and Mrs. Felix we get the information that Mary went to France with a "gentleman" but she didn't like it and returned after a couple weeks. What if the "gentleman" planned to marry her? France had some strict laws about names to be used on legal documents. I spent a couple hours late last night looking at Marie Jeanne's & Marie Jeanettes who married in France between 1882-1885. They all had French surnames with French parents so I have the usual findings of zero. Even so, France required the posting of bans before a marriage. Might MJK have gone that far and would the bans have been posted as Marie Jeanne? (I also did not find ANY Kelly in these records though that was an after thought. Initially I just used Marie Jeanette for a first name and that opened the flood gates for that name and Marie Jeanne and other combinations. I quit going down the list when I realised I was seeing a lot of Marie Jeans--a man's name in France--marrying females.)

(What got me started with this thought was the marriage of Jenny Jerome to Randolph Churchill in the English embassy in Paris. Was her birth name plain Jennie, possibly in honour of Jennie Lind, or was it Jeanette? Historians tend to say it was Jennie. Unfortunately in my genealogy sources every entry for her covers birth, three marriages, two children, other relatives, title and death, all in one.)

Then, rereading sources concerning MJK, we get two versions of her French connections from Barnett and Mrs. Felix. The latter gives us the idea Mary glorified her days in a French lady's brothel and that she made several trips to Paris, etc.

Barnett tells us she did not like life in the "West End gay house" which was run by a madame--which need not mean this woman was French--and that she left after a few weeks, going to France with a "gentleman". In some sources on Barnette's testimony he is quoted as saying he did not know if she disliked the "purpose" or the "part". Define those terms however one will.

If Mary was neither happy in the possibly French brothel nor in France with the "gentleman", would we think she would share a French name with her lover of some 18 months? Surely if her time in France was negative or painful she would not want to relive it through a name she told her lover, who subsequently must have called her that? Wouldn't it make more sense that if she rejected her experiences in France, she would be glad to be plain Irish/Welsh Mary Jane?

Going back to the idea of a French marriage or plan for such, all accounts say she returned after a few weeks. English girls did go to France or were taken there as prostitutes and they had a hard time getting back home due to lack of money and other difficulties in the white slave trade. Even misbehaviour would not have guaranteed a quick trip home.

We have also wondered what Barnett meant about her rejecting the "part". The full quote says, " the purpose or the part". The purpose could be prostitution and the part could be a position in a brothel, I suppose. It could also indicate marriage, I think. Maybe she did not want to follow through with a marriage though she had a fondness for the "gentleman". Maybe Marie Jeanette became a little piece of respectability in her life.

If we compare the sources Barnett and Mrs. Felix, we see Mary (probably) enhancing her past experiences for whatever reason when she was around Felix, Buki, Morgensterns, etc. With the working class man who was her lover and companion of 18 months, she downplayed and simplified her account. I don't think we can argue that she didn't want to make Barnett jealous as he also tells us Mary was very fond of Joe Flemming. I wonder sometimes if she said things to Barnett to deliberately make him jealous but that could be another thread.

I reread sources to try to figure out if the "French lady" who retained the "box of costly dresses" was necessarily a brothel owner and the answers I think I found are inconclusive. I was wondering if Mary had gone to France with a lover who bought nice dresses for her and if Mary picked them up from perhaps a French relative of her lover.

I have made the point before that I did not think a few weeks in a brothel would entitle Mary to costly dresses. She would likely have been in debt for the dresses and the madame might have been ticked off about Mary leaving to go to France. Unless the French trip was connected with the brothel but even so, Mary returned in short order, so as an investment Mary would have been a failure in under three months if we accept the time frames given.

A problem with the validity of this reasoning is that though Mrs. Felix stated that Mary and Mrs. Buki demanded the dresses from the French lady, there is no clear statement indicating they GOT the box of dresses. Some have theorized that Mary was in debt to Mrs. Buki the landlady and Mary needed to pawn the dresses to pay her. Interestingly the accounts indicate Mary moved to Pennington Street soon after the dress escapade. If the dresses were sold to pay off the landlady, why did Mary have to move? If the dresses were worth a lot of money she could have lived better, even if for a short while, on the proceeds. Perhaps the box of dresses was demanded but I have doubts if it was collected.

In a day when a handkerchief has a small value at a pawn shop, a whole box of good dresses should have been worth a whole lot more than a few month's rent in the vicinity of Ratcliffe Highway. Mrs. Felix and her daughter were seamstress and milliner or vise versa. I would assume she would have an additional comment about these dresses if they actually materialized. Her silence on the subject also makes an impression. Even just a few words could have meant a lot, like, "beautiful dresses of very fine fabric." We know from contemporary sources that the future Mrs. John McCarthy took some money and bought herself a SILK dress but all we know about Mary's dresses were that they were in a box and they were of "costly description". Yeah, right! I bet Mrs. Felix would have liked some of the costly fabric to use in her business if those dresses existed.

If Mrs. Felix used the words, "of costly description", perhaps she was even being sarcastic, meaning Mary talked a great deal but there was no substance proved. Perhaps Mrs. Felix put a slight emphasis on the word "description", gently indicating Mary had exaggerated or lied.

My conclusion at this time on the dresses is that Mary never obtained them. Maybe it was a ruse or she ignorantly thought she had earned them. But IF she did get the dresses I would suggest she did not obtain them from a madame of a brothel and that they were given outright to Mary by a lover or admirer. If various sources are correct about Mary's clothes, she may have owned a black velvet skirt, bodice and jacket even at the time of her death, two or more years after her adventure with Mrs. Buki. In my opinion that would be a matched or color coordinated outfit which would be fairly unlikely if she got her wardrobe from the work house or if she scrounged it here and there.

Finally, in English records some marriage bans are recorded. I have no idea about France. The records I found were all for actual marriages. Maybe someone else has an idea how to dig deeper into French records.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 02:53 PM   #2
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I always thought that Adrianus Morgenstern provided a convenient explanation of the name Jeanette (I believe it was his late wife's name).

Perhaps Mary didn't like the "part" of France that she went to. Dieppe, maybe?

I'm beginning to think that Adrianus Morgenstern was part of her London life almost from the beginning but then he's living with Elizabeth Phoenix in 1891. When did they meet? I wonder.

If she knew him in 1888 and previous years, you would think that Elizabeth would have already known the whole background story going back to the alleged "West End" days, and would have mentioned that and mentioned him and that she knew Mrs. Buki too.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 03:29 PM   #3
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I always thought that Adrianus Morgenstern provided a convenient explanation of the name Jeanette (I believe it was his late wife's name).

Perhaps Mary didn't like the "part" of France that she went to. Dieppe, maybe?

I'm beginning to think that Adrianus Morgenstern was part of her London life almost from the beginning but then he's living with Elizabeth Phoenix in 1891. When did they meet? I wonder.

If she knew him in 1888 and previous years, you would think that Elizabeth would have already known the whole background story going back to the alleged "West End" days, and would have mentioned that and mentioned him and that she knew Mrs. Buki too.
I too wonder if Morgenstern was the "gentleman" who took Mary to France, maybe Dieppe. I have also wondered if these Morgensterns had a Belgian connexion.

For all that Holland is a protestant country they seemed to like Latinised record keeping. It's easier to find Maria Janejte in Dutch records.

That said, since Barnett made a fairly big deal of this and said it was her given name, though she went by Mary Jane, I have a strong feeling it had some legal value in her life. I believe also it was more than a RC Latin entry for Mary Jane which should roughly be Maria Ioana. SOMEWHERE Mary Jane _______--I don't think her name was Kelly--used Marie Jeanette and it had a positive meaning for her, not just a nickname from a brothel or an unpleasant trip to France. And it ended up on her death certificate and the coffin plate. It is NOT equal to Pearly Poll, Black Mary, Ginger, Dark Annie or other nicknames we see, IMO.

I am very interested in the marriage cert. for Mary Ann Connelly's RC marriage. Regular names are used.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 04:23 PM   #4
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I am very interested in the marriage cert. for Mary Ann Connelly's RC marriage. Regular names are used.
That's because it was the transcribed record of the original entry in the Catholic Church register from the GRO. The original church record could have been in Latin.
For example there's a marriage entry in the original digitised registers of the Catholic parish of Commercial Rd Stepney in 1894 filled out in Latin where the groom was Timotheus Donovan and the bride Mariam Calnan. The same marriage appears in the GRO index as between Timothy Donovan and Mary Calnan.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 06:28 PM   #5
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That's because it was the transcribed record of the original entry in the Catholic Church register from the GRO. The original church record could have been in Latin.
For example there's a marriage entry in the original digitised registers of the Catholic parish of Commercial Rd Stepney in 1894 filled out in Latin where the groom was Timotheus Donovan and the bride Mariam Calnan. The same marriage appears in the GRO index as between Timothy Donovan and Mary Calnan.
Thanks, Debra. Good to know. I DO think something about MJK and marriage could account for the name. Or not.

Some of the old Catholic records I have read list Mary as Maria. Mariam is more correct biblically.

Here is a thought: Mrs. Felix said she thought Joe Fleming "would have married" Mary and she had no idea why this had not taken place. From whoever else at Millers Court we hear that Mary was fond of another fellow Named Joe--who ill used her-- and it appears she saw him even while living with Joe Barnett. If I had access to these Catholic records I would look for Marie Jeanette ______ & Joseph Fleming circa 1886, at the least for a marriage application. (If we find a Mary Jane Wilson it'll make San Fran's day.)
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Old February 21st, 2017, 07:28 PM   #6
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Thanks, Debra. Good to know. I DO think something about MJK and marriage could account for the name. Or not.

Some of the old Catholic records I have read list Mary as Maria. Mariam is more correct biblically.

Here is a thought: Mrs. Felix said she thought Joe Fleming "would have married" Mary and she had no idea why this had not taken place. From whoever else at Millers Court we hear that Mary was fond of another fellow Named Joe--who ill used her-- and it appears she saw him even while living with Joe Barnett. If I had access to these Catholic records I would look for Marie Jeanette ______ & Joseph Fleming circa 1886, at the least for a marriage application. (If we find a Mary Jane Wilson it'll make San Fran's day.)
A search for a 'Mary Jane' in those Catholic records also brings up the variations which are different combinations of Maria/Mary and Joanna/Johanna/Jana/Jane/Jean and Joan in the lists. There are approx 400 Catholic baptisms for girls baptised as a definite 'Mary Jane' in Middlesex 1832 to 1907 that come up.
There's also a lot of Jeanette/Janetta and Janets in there. 'Jeanette/Jannette Maria or Marie' rather than Marie Jeanette seems to be the usual combination of those two names in those particular records.

Joseph Flemming was not a Catholic. His workhouse records show he was C of E
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Old February 21st, 2017, 07:54 PM   #7
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Here are two examples, Anna.



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Old February 21st, 2017, 09:47 PM   #8
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Here are two examples, Anna.



Beautiful! And there is a Wilson. Too bad the dates are wrong for marriages. The writing on the first one is a bit difficult. There are apparently more Marie Jeanettes in these records than can be found anywhere else. Interesting. Jeanette Maria works out to Jane Mary or Janet Mary and those are uncommon unless they were Jane M., etc.

I would assume the Morgensterns were Dutch Reformed or similar. Adrianus had a bunch of kids without a mother when his wife died and I would understand him wanting to remarry quickly.

I think Marie Jeanette had a positive connotation for Mary. Maybe she and Barnett applied to get married but didn't finish the process. Surely he was Catholic enough to understand the Latin and pseudo-Latin naming system?

Mixed marriages could happen if any resulting children were promised to be raised RC.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 11:41 PM   #9
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If I had access to these Catholic records I would look for Marie Jeanette ______ & Joseph Fleming circa 1886, at the least for a marriage application. (If we find a Mary Jane Wilson it'll make San Fran's day.)
That would make MORE than my day, Anna! That's for sure.

MJW's husband was still alive but she could have strung poor Joe Fleming along long enough to apply for a marriage. Just speculating.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 04:23 AM   #10
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Beautiful! And there is a Wilson. Too bad the dates are wrong for marriages. The writing on the first one is a bit difficult. There are apparently more Marie Jeanettes in these records than can be found anywhere else. Interesting. Jeanette Maria works out to Jane Mary or Janet Mary and those are uncommon unless they were Jane M., etc.

I would assume the Morgensterns were Dutch Reformed or similar. Adrianus had a bunch of kids without a mother when his wife died and I would understand him wanting to remarry quickly.

I think Marie Jeanette had a positive connotation for Mary. Maybe she and Barnett applied to get married but didn't finish the process. Surely he was Catholic enough to understand the Latin and pseudo-Latin naming system?

Mixed marriages could happen if any resulting children were promised to be raised RC.
Those are both baptisms in the Catholic parish of Commercial Rd, Stepney, Anna. I wanted to give you examples to show Jeanette was in use is Catholic records and the combination of the name 'Mary Jane' was also used a quite a bit by Irish Catholics. The records from one parish in the area we are studying, Commercial Rd, showing that.

The first one is for a Jane/Janet Mary born 27th April 1869 and baptised 8 July the same year. Her father was John and her mother Sarah Crillant formerly Thompson. The sponsor named was John Frienon or something similar.

The second baptism I threw in for San Fran. As you spotted it's for a Janet Mary Wilson born 1851 but baptised in 1891 as an adult.
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