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Points To Ponder A forum filled with rehashed ideas, overlooked & often original theories, and newspaper articles from days gone by.

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Old September 11th, 2016, 02:02 PM   #11
Jerry Dunlop
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There was a Rose McCarthy (wife of John) at 1, Breeze Hill in 1891.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 02:25 PM   #12
Gary Barnett
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There was a Rose McCarthy (wife of John) at 1, Breeze Hill in 1891.
Hi Jerry,

Yes, that was Rose Mary (nee Brooks) who married John McCarthy in 1889. From memory the address on her marriage cert was 3, Pennington Street, which is a bit of a mystery as no. 3 had been demolished ca 1800.

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Old September 11th, 2016, 02:38 PM   #13
Debra Arif
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Anna, if you are using the casebook wiki as a source for the various relationships that could be the cause for confusion as it is inaccurate.

It was definitely Elizabeth Phoenix who said MJK had once lived with her brother in law in Breezers Hill.
At 79 Pennington St (formerly the White Lion, 1 Breezers Hill, according to the Sheldens) lived Johannes Morganstern and his wife Elizabeth, lately Boueki, formerly Bluma. Johannes Morgenstern of Breezers Hill/Pennington St fits being the brother in law of Elizabeth Phoenix (Elizabeth Felix, wife of Adrianus Morgenstern) in that case. It also fits Barnet's independent statement that MJK once lived with a man named Morgenstern and a woman named Mrs Buki.

edit: oh, hang on, Eddleston has Mrs Carthy as sister in law too. Bugger.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 02:43 PM   #14
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Eliesabeth Morgenstern, late Boekü, formerly Bluma.

Shelden, Neal. Mary Jane Kelly and the Victims of Jack the Ripper: The 125th Anniversary (Kindle Location 582). . Kindle Edition.
Eliesabeth can be a Jewish spelling for Elizabeth. Interesting. Heaven knows how Boeku would be pronounced. Bluma can be Polish.

Sounds like Eliesabeth Bluma had been married to someone named Boeku? I never could find Boeku in UK databases. I think I found something on the LDS site for Rotterdam, where originated the Morgenstern clan.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 02:46 PM   #15
Robert Linford
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Have I got this right? Adrienus is with Elizabeth Felix in 1891 at 20 Cordelia St but takes her surname. Then in 1901 he's at 22 Joshua St, lists himself as a widower and calls himself Thomas (Thos) Morgenstern. Then in 1911 he's at the same address, calls himself Adrian Morgenstern once more but gives himself as single.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 02:54 PM   #16
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Have I got this right? Adrienus is with Elizabeth Felix in 1891 at 20 Cordelia St but takes her surname. Then in 1901 he's at 22 Joshua St, lists himself as a widower and calls himself Thomas (Thos) Morgenstern. Then in 1911 he's at the same address, calls himself Adrian Morgenstern once more but gives himself as single.
The Morgenstern clan is interesting and I have an idea the subject has barely been cracked. I found a death for Elizabeth Felix, maybe around 1911. I think by that time they were all living in Poplar, including Maran and Johannes.

I wonder what connexion--if any--the Morgensterns had with the "French lady"? Sounds like the family may have had a number of...um...activities.

Interestingly Maran might be a French name from the area of Normandy. It is uncommon. Sometimes Morgenstern is listed as Marian but the actual name seems to be Maran.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:11 PM   #17
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Hi Debs,

The Lion was Red and was numbered in Pennington Street but possibly had its main facade and entrance in Breezer's Hill.

This is Horwood's map of 1799:
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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:14 PM   #18
Debra Arif
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Have I got this right? Adrienus is with Elizabeth Felix in 1891 at 20 Cordelia St but takes her surname. Then in 1901 he's at 22 Joshua St, lists himself as a widower and calls himself Thomas (Thos) Morgenstern. Then in 1911 he's at the same address, calls himself Adrian Morgenstern once more but gives himself as single.
That's right Robert.
The dates and places of birth and name of daughter Anna in the Felix family in 1891 seem beyond coincidence as Neal and Jenni wrote, and I'd agree.

I don't think it's known that Felix was Elizabeth's surname; it may have been a surname Adrianus (and his brother too apparently) assumed and Elizabeth took it on to appear married to him. I think the Shelden's showed that Felix was an occupatioal name and related to the former occupation of one of the Morgenstern brothers. If not, if you recall Chris Scott's article on his identification of Sarah Lewis, the woman he wrote about was living with a German man who took her name too, which makes more sense for him to revert back to Morgenstern if he split with Elizabeth.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:17 PM   #19
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Eliesabeth can be a Jewish spelling for Elizabeth. Interesting. Heaven knows how Boeku would be pronounced. Bluma can be Polish.

Sounds like Eliesabeth Bluma had been married to someone named Boeku? I never could find Boeku in UK databases. I think I found something on the LDS site for Rotterdam, where originated the Morgenstern clan.
It's one of those dreaded spellings that makes people disappear in the historical records, Anna!
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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:21 PM   #20
Debra Arif
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Hi Debs,

The Lion was Red and was numbered in Pennington Street but possibly had its main facade and entrance in Breezer's Hill.

This is Horwood's map of 1799:
Thanks, Gary.

Wasn't there similar confusion with Lusk's address at one time because it was on the corner and was given as two different addresses?
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