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Points To Ponder A forum filled with rehashed ideas, overlooked & often original theories, and newspaper articles from days gone by.

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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:25 PM   #21
Anna Morris
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The whole "box of costly dresses" thing never seemed right to me. Almost everything I have learned about prostitution at that time and place shows that most of the women were kept dependent, in debt and owing. We have explored here women at the top of the heap like Skittles, but Mary Kelly probably wasn't in that class.

I also never figured out why Mrs. Felix exposed herself and her family to the notoriety of having been involved with Mary. Then there is the hint that Mrs. Felix' extended family might have had some involvement in prostitution, at least at Limehouse.

What is the chance that Mary worked her way through a chain of brothels in London? What is the chance she had some special dresses for her work as a prostitute in a house. If the houses were connected in some way I could see how the dresses could be sent along for her continued use. If so, this would suggest a bit of organisation behind the brothels. I would think an independent brothel owner, the "French lady", would have simply kept "costly dresses" if a girl left or got kicked out.

Maybe the dresses and the whole incident never happened. If so, what is the story actually covering? There must be something in Mary's background having to do with clothing, dresses, etc.

What is the chance Mrs. Felix made up a lot of "facts" to keep press and police looking in directions other than the right directions? Mrs. Felix has the story of the French lady, Mary riding in a carriage like a real lady, a house in the vicinity of Knightsbridge. Not one shred of any of this has been substantiated.

Mary seems to have told Barnett she was in a better class brothel for a couple weeks, went to France, didn't like any of it and left.

Might the truth be simpler than what Mrs. Felix provided? If I had access to more and better records I think I would be looking for a sort of chain of brothels in the London area with certain things that could connect them together. I'd bet Mrs. Felix was anxious to turn eyes away from some operations she knew about.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:29 PM   #22
Debra Arif
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Does anyone have a contemporary source that Elizabeth Phoenix said that Mrs Carthy was her sister in law?
Could it be a modern myth, resulting from the fact that before the Shelden's identified the Boeuki/Felix/Morgenstern link it was just assumed that the Mrs Carthy who came forward saying MJK had once lodged with her had to have been the wife of the brother in law Elizabeth Phoenix talked in her statement?
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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:42 PM   #23
Robert Linford
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I'm just wondering if MJK got "Jeanette" from Morgenstern's wife.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 03:55 PM   #24
Robert Linford
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Debs, this asserts the relationship but I dpn't know if the sources mentioned back it up.


http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Mrs._Carthy.html
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Old September 11th, 2016, 04:00 PM   #25
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The surname Bluma is Hebrew

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/featur...emium-1.584816

From the link above :


Some Jewish surnames derive from women’s given names, either a mother or a wife. In some cases when the wife’s name is used, the suffix "–man" is affixed to the end to the wife’s name.
Bluma: Blum or Blumstein
Sarah: Soros or Sorotskin
Rachel: Richles
Shifra: Sprinzak
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/featur...emium-1.584816
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Old September 11th, 2016, 04:07 PM   #26
Anna Morris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra Arif View Post
Does anyone have a contemporary source that Elizabeth Phoenix said that Mrs Carthy was her sister in law?
Could it be a modern myth, resulting from the fact that before the Shelden's identified the Boeuki/Felix/Morgenstern link it was just assumed that the Mrs Carthy who came forward saying MJK had once lodged with her had to have been the wife of the brother in law Elizabeth Phoenix talked in her statement?
In 'Cast of Thousands' the sources listed are: 'Evening Express' 12/11/88 and 'Western Mail' 12/11/88. I am sorry I cannot dredge up either at the moment and cannot link to them. Chris Scott was so careful with his work, it must be in one of these sources.

There is another basic report covered by a number of publications that does not mention family connexions between Felix and Carthy.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 04:11 PM   #27
Gary Barnett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Linford View Post
Debs, this asserts the relationship but I dpn't know if the sources mentioned back it up.


http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Mrs._Carthy.html
After a brief look, it's Mrs 'Phoenix's' sister-in-law who lived in Breezers Hill, Pennington Street and Mrs Carthy/McCarthy is in Pennington Street. Is that right?
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Old September 11th, 2016, 04:12 PM   #28
Anna Morris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Linford View Post
I'm just wondering if MJK got "Jeanette" from Morgenstern's wife.
I have wondered that also. I spent a lot of time digging in the LDS site for Marie Jeanettes in Holland. It almost seems more of a Dutch name than French. I had also wondered if the Morgensterns might be Belgian though they were from Rotterdam. There were several things, such as family names, that made me think that way.

Even though I have pushed the Marie Jeanette angle, I am kind of falling back on the idea that IF any part of her name was correct, she was probably a plain Mary Jane. (I never did locate the information where Barnette said or testified about the Marie Jeanette, that she was "so christened". I took that seriously but wherever it was I can't find it.)
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Old September 11th, 2016, 04:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Barnett View Post
After a brief look, it's Mrs 'Phoenix's' sister-in-law who lived in Breezers Hill, Pennington Street and Mrs Carthy/McCarthy is in Pennington Street. Is that right?
Scrap that. Of course there are references to Mrs M'Carthy being in Breezers Hill.
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Old September 11th, 2016, 04:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Linford View Post
Debs, this asserts the relationship but I dpn't know if the sources mentioned back it up.


http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Mrs._Carthy.html
It also asserts that the Mrs McCarthy in residence at no. 1 in 1891 was MJK's landlady.
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