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Old May 7th, 2009, 10:26 PM   #1
SirRobertAnderson
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Default Let's Discuss the "Whores Mole Bonnett" !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline Morris View Post
or the enigmatic: ‘Christmas save the whores mole bonnett’.
I thought this might deserve a separate thread. I'd be curious as to what people think the Diarist might have meant by this phrase.

I don't have my copy of the Diary handy, Caz. Where in the text does this appear ?
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Old May 7th, 2009, 10:29 PM   #2
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Bob:

I'll go re-read that segment of the MD...but is it possible that the word is "male" and not "mole" ? I have no access to the original.

In regard to the "whores bonnett", maybe the Diarist meant he would decapitate the subsequent victim.
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Old May 7th, 2009, 10:54 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by How Brown View Post
Bob:

I'll go re-read that segment of the MD...but is it possible that the word is "male" and not "mole" ? I have no access to the original.

In regard to the "whores bonnett", maybe the Diarist meant he would decapitate the subsequent victim.
The expression is crossed out in the Diary, so until I get my mitts on my copy I'll have to defer on what it actually says.

This is from Casebook posts from 5 years ago; the discussion got strangled at birth in the usual manner.



Caroline Anne Morris
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Hi Paul, All,

Christmas save the whores mole bonnett [sic]

What's all that about then? Anyone? We wouldn't know if this crossed out line in the diary is another strange little invention that serves no purpose whatsoever, or whether it could be based on some factual information that has a definite significance for the diarist.

How did a modern forger know to use the term 'mole bonnet', for instance? And if they took the detail straight out of a book on Victorian hats, why the spelling mistake?

It's not weasily explained, and I'm stoatally confused by some of the diarist's choices of words. It's just not fur.

Love,

Caz



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Hi Caz

That one's a puzzler for sure.

What about the bonnet that Maria Harvey says she left at Miller's Court? She describes it as a Crepe bonnet. Could they be one and the same? I don't know a lot about Victorian head wear myself, but if it was fur lined could Maybrick have reasonably described it as a Mole bonnet? Sugden seems to think it may or may not have been burned in the fire.

If JTR did take Kelly's heart with him, he'd need something to carry it in. I doubt he would want it in his coat pocket or just carry it in his hands. A tad suspicious. A female bonnet would be just the right size, and could be tied together with the strings to make a very neat package.

Is James back at Battlecrease with his trophy, just before Christmas, and trying to decide whether to 'save' it or not, as doubts about his deeds start to creep in?

Well why not?

Regards

Paul
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Old May 7th, 2009, 10:58 PM   #4
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Thanks buddy...I don't remember Paul's or Caz's posts before.
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Old May 7th, 2009, 11:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by How Brown View Post
Thanks buddy...I don't remember Paul's or Caz's posts before.
They appeared as part of a thread within Problem Phrases Within the Diary » "A ring or two will leave this clue.... two farthings...." » Archive through August 27, 2004

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/13840.html
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Old May 7th, 2009, 11:13 PM   #6
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And a Forums post from Caz about a year ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline Morris View Post


This does not only apply to 'Sir Jim's' supposed experiences as the ripper, but to every single unknown in the diary, including Mrs Hammersmith, the other two alleged attacks (one in Manchester, the other one apparently there too, but not necessarily - another of those inevitable ambiguities of the language) and even little oddities such as: Christmas save the whores mole bonnett.

Such details can only be checked against the available historical record. If nothing is found there, the possibility must remain - however remote - that it's new information that may or may not be verifiable, in material yet to emerge.

Love,

Caz
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Old May 8th, 2009, 08:24 AM   #7
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Hi Sir Bob

This sentence is in that particularly chatotic part of the diary where Sir Jim is trying to create poetry again and eventually gives up altogether. Not only is this line crossed out, the whole page, plus a bit either side of it, is scrubbed out.

It seems a strange and meaningless thing to say, and I did wonder if it might even be a quotation from somewhere. It comes shortly before "costly intercourse" in the text.

I'm sure it does say mole and not male, but the word save is unclear and could be something else I suppose. I don't know what though.

Despite some five year old idle speculation on Casebook around Maria Harvey's bonnet, it still seems to me that the best explanation for this strange sentence is that it was inspired by something that is either now lost, or just hasn't been noticed yet. It's just too off the wall to be a casual spur of the moment type invention of Sir Jim's.

Regards to all.

Paul
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Old May 8th, 2009, 09:29 AM   #8
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I always heard that mole skin trousers for example were used by the German army?

From wikipedia:

Moleskin, originally referring to the short, silky fur of a mole, is heavy cotton fabric, woven and then sheared to create a short soft pile on one side. The word is also used for clothing made from this fabric. It is also used in adhesive pads stuck to the feet to prevent blisters.

Clothing made from moleskin is noted for its softness and durability. Some variants of the cloth are so densely-woven as to be windproof. The majority of manufacturers of this cloth are British mills.


Bit odd that....seeing as JM was a fabric man. Why wouldnt he recognise a fabric by its colloquial name.

Like these mens hats from "mole skin"

http://www.oconnellsclothing.com/hats_and_caps.php

Or like this victorian pieces made of moleskin:

http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php...ng_id=20576886

Quite a few moleskin bonnets (ie. bonnets of moleskin) here:

http://www.victorianmillinery.com/Catalog.cfm

Clever of our man to use a colloquial name for a common Victorian fabric used in womens hats which a fabric man might recognise then shorten it to make it even less comprehensibel!

What a japester our author was!

p
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Old May 8th, 2009, 09:39 AM   #9
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Hi All,

I don't know why I didn't think of this before - must be my mind just getting grubbier as I get older.

While I was sure (and thanks Mr P for the confirmation!) that mole bonnets were a popular Victorian fashion accessory (like fur or wool-trimmed coats and such), I'm wondering if it was also adopted as a slang term. I just found this:

Charity Mole: an expression used to describe a young, dressed up girl in a nightclub taking advantage of an older, rich man exclusively for his money
Example: see that chick over there latched onto that old guy? She is so a charity mole


From:
http://www.slangsite.com/slang/C.html

And it suddenly clicked that a whore's 'mole bonnet' would make a cracking Victorian euphemism for her you-know-what. Look up 'beetle bonnet' for an equivalent modern day clue.

The word 'save' is I think being used by 'Sir Jim' as a subjunctive (is there a grammar expert in the house?), making the phrase:

Christmas save the whores mole bonnett

read to me right now like:

May Christmas save another whore's mole bonnet [or even 'the whore' Bunny's mole bonnet???] from Sir Jim's knife

Anyone biting?

Love,

Caz
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Old May 8th, 2009, 09:44 AM   #10
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And I just took a check and moleskin was quite common in Victorian times as a comfortable fabric for the manufacture of lots of things.

I took this from this website:http://www.brisbanemoss.co.uk/history.asp

"The origins of fabrics known as corduroy and moleskin are obscure, but together with other types of fabric, such as velveteen, they belong to a group once widely known as fustians. Most of the production of these fabrics was in the East Lancashire and West Yorkshire districts of England. The Calder Valley in West Yorkshire, in which Brisbane Moss is situated, had a high concentration of fustian weavers, dyers and finishers from the first half of the 19th Century. Within the last few decades virtually all of the companies engaged in this type of production have closed down, and Brisbane Moss is now the largest remaining stockhouse of corduroys and moleskins in Great Britain.


The term fustian is itself very general in its meaning, and in the early 19th Century was a description of a strong, hard wearing woven cloth made with a linen warp and cotton weft. During the latter part of the Century and the early part of the 20th Century it came to describe that group of woven cloths having a high ratio of weft threads to warp threads, thus giving the appearance of a smooth weft faced fabric, usually thick and strong, and mostly made of 100% cotton. In some cases the smooth face of the fabric was interrupted by equally spaced ribs, or races, running the length of the piece, and these could be cut on specialised machines, prior to dyeing, to form ribs of raised pile, characteristic of corduroy as it is now known. Depending on the number of ribs per inch, or the weight, or the characteristics of the weave, the different varieties of corduroy were given particular names, such as Genoa, Constitutional Cord, Thicksett, Twill Back, Jean Back, Calico Back, Needlecord. These names were often descriptive of the woven construction, for instance 'Twill Back' corduroy would mean a cloth woven with its backing picks comprising a two and two twill, whereas the 'Calico Back' corduroy would have a plain back - calico being a generic term meaning cloths of a plain construction.

Moleskins were generally fabrics without prominent ribs, but had a smooth overall appearance, and as with corduroy there were many varieties, again being known by various terms such as Imperial, Swansdown, Patent, O'Neil. The loomstate fabric, coming directly from the loom, could be dyed and finished in many different ways and shades, depending on the particular end use it was destined for.

Some moleskins were made with extremely strong warp yarns and very high weft density, in some cases over 400 threads per inch, which requires a special type of loom, of which very few survive.

The common factor in all the above fabrics was the use of good quality cotton yarns, usually ring spun ply yarns in the warp and relatively soft mule spun or ring yarn in the weft. Mule spun yarn was still being produced, in England, until the 1960's but cotton mules finally disappeared and now, in addition to ring yarns, the latest generation of yarns spun on open end machines are used in some moleskin fabrics. However, the high quality fabrics processed to give a fine sueded finish use only soft spun ring yarns for weft and are usually of a woven construction to throw a large amount of weft onto the surface. Such weaves as reversible four by four imperials are typical of this type of cloth.

Today most sueded moleskins are used for apparel, the heavier qualities up to 400 gms per square metre being used largely for trousers, breeches, waistcoats and similar purposes.

Lighter weights can be seen in shirts, fashion trousers, skirts and, often when quilted or combined with other fabrics, leisure jackets of various types. All weights of both moleskin and corduroy are used as trim, in combination with other fabrics, on collars, cuffs etc.
Finishes and colours used on corduroy and moleskin are varied, depending on specific requirements. Silicone, water repellent and softening finishes can be applied, but mostly these are kept to a minimum as the fabrics, if made to a good initial specification, have a characteristic appearance and handle which is comfortable and wears well. It is not surprising that, with reasonable care, garments made from such fabrics have a long life. The best qualities made by Brisbane Moss have weaving specifications, unchanged, going back many decades and still today only the finest available yarns and dyes are used. "

So quite frankly....I refuse to over interpret the diary and just assume myself that he was referring to her hat made of moleskin.

Admittedly its a bit of specialist fabric knowledge but I don't see any reason to start the usual Ripperologist over dissection.

A hat made of moleskin. Shortened in the same way I would say "My dear lady, thats a fine mink you are wearing" in referral to her mink fur shawl or whatever.

p
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