Jack The Ripper Forums  - Ripperology For The 21st Century  

Go Back   Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century > Undercovered & Overlooked

Undercovered & Overlooked Forums for presenting areas of case study which, as the title suggests, are in need of the once over, perhaps even twice...from A to Z.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old July 24th, 2017, 02:55 PM   #21
Jerry Dunlop
Information Extractor
 
Jerry Dunlop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 1,309
Default

Thanks Neil,

It seems a few police procedures were odd that night. Leaving Isaac Lewis Jacobs alone with the body was another.



Also, I was reading the Castle Alley wiki today and came across this entry:

There is no doubt that Castle Alley had a dubious reputation - a surveyor for Charles Booth's Map of London Poverty in 1898 described it thus:

"..under arch into Castle Alley. No houses, factories on either side, two of the Whitechapel Murders were committed at the south end. This street is quiet and used as a place of rest by the dwellers in the Whitechapel Lodging Houses. By custom, women sit on the west side of the pavement, men on the east."

Two of the murders? Has anyone heard of another murder in Castle Alley?
Jerry Dunlop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2017, 04:21 PM   #22
Anna Morris
Registered User
 
Anna Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho, USA
Posts: 3,421
Default

I am reading and trying to catch up to speed on the subject. In one press report Andrews found the body, heard Jacobs approaching, chatted with him, asked him to stay with the body and went off to find other policemen. Or something. NO mention of blowing the whistle. I don't use the word "chatted" loosely.
__________________
If the shawl doesn't fit, you must acquit.~~Henry Flower, Casebook post
Anna Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2017, 04:28 PM   #23
Jerry Dunlop
Information Extractor
 
Jerry Dunlop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 1,309
Default

This is a view of Castle Alley c.1873. The murder scene was about the extreme bottom left of this sketch looking toward the Board School (tall building straight ahead). The Board School (The Old Castle Street School) later became the Herbert House. The houses on the right were demolished by 1889 and replaced by a high hoarding that ran all the way up the alley on the east side to the Three Crowns. Over the hoarding, according to the St. James Gazette in 1889, you could see the second story windows of the back of the houses in Newcastle Street. The view from this spot in 1889 would have a direct view of the Three Crowns on the right and part of Old Castle Street.

Also, in regard to the GSG. This school and playground backed up to the Model Dwellings the spot where the apron and writing was found. From the book Jewish Immigrants in London, 1880–1939:

The Old Castle Street School built in the 1870's, became the focal point of controversy over religious influences. Designed to serve one thousand children, immigrant parents refused to send their children there, for fear of missionary activity. The school sought Moses Angel's advice. He recommended removing Christian influences and closing early for Sabbath and other Jewish holidays. The Board appointed Abraham Levy, a JFS staff member as headmaster. Though non-denominational, Old Castle offered Hebrew as a special subject and Levy persuaded the school board to permit after school Jewish religion classes to meet at the school.

Of course my mind was drawn to "a good, round schoolboy hand" and the Jewish/Christian battles at this Board school in regard to the writing on the wall.

Old Castle Street School 1885 Report of the School Management Committee:

Spelling is very good throughout... Handwriting is good in the First and Fourth Standards, and fairly so in the Second Standard. The sixth is still weak in this subject. Neatness in this subject is a great desideratum.


So, with the school so close by, was a younger child practicing his handwriting on the dado at the model dwellings with a religious influence from his nearby school? this would explain where the chalk may have come from also. The school.


Castle Alley (approx site of Bradbury Court)
looking north towards Old Castle Street school
(site of Herbert House), c. 1873
Submitted by Aileen Reid
Jerry Dunlop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2017, 04:43 PM   #24
Jerry Dunlop
Information Extractor
 
Jerry Dunlop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 1,309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna Morris View Post
I am reading and trying to catch up to speed on the subject. In one press report Andrews found the body, heard Jacobs approaching, chatted with him, asked him to stay with the body and went off to find other policemen. Or something. NO mention of blowing the whistle. I don't use the word "chatted" loosely.
Hi Anna,

I actually copied my response to you and Wick from another thread regarding the whistle. If you read the Lloyd's version of the inquest (included below) you can see that the whistle was blown when Andrews was with Isaac Lewis Jacobs. That's also when Badham hears it.



There is another good account of the inquest testimony in Lloyds Weekly, July 21, 1889 that adds a few more details. Plus you need to take into consideration the testimony of Isaac Jacobs and what he said about the whistle and then the piece you both quoted makes a little more sense.

First, when Andrews met Badham they were opposite the Three Crowns which is about halfway between Whitechapel Road and Wentworth Street at the point where Castle Alley turns into Old Castle Street. That was at 12:48 or so. After exchanging "Alrights", Badham heads north to Bell Lane and Andrews heads into the alley. By the time Badham heard any whistle he was about 150 yards north and already to Bell Lane. Andrews would have reached Alice before Badham reached Bell Lane because it was about half the distance for him to travel there then it was for Badham to travel to Bell Lane. If Andrews had blown the whistle, reasoning has it that Badham would have returned immediately to where Andrews was and probably anyone else within earshot of the whistle. In the Lloyds account Badham states:

"When I reached Bell Lane, about 150 yards away, I heard a whistle blown twice. I listened for a second to ascertain from where it came, and then rushed along Wentworth-street to Old Castle Street. Andrews shouted, "Come on quick". I pulled my cape off and ran after him".


Badham was in Bell Lane when he heard the whistle blow twice and waited a second to ascertain where it came. As he reached Old Castle Street he was close enough to Andrews to hear him shout, "Come on quick". That means Andrews was interrogating Isaac Jacobs at the top of the street and heading back to the alley. If Andrews was still at the body waiting for the Sergeant to arrive "2 or 3 minutes later" why is Sgt. Badham running after him?

Isaac Jacobs testimony from what he told the court: [Lloyds Weekly Newspaper July 21, 1889]



Andrews blew the whistle while he was with Isaac Jacobs and the Sergeant followed them to the spot.

In some versions of the inquest, such as the Times, Andrews blew the whistle after touching the abdomen and then the Sergeant came two or three minutes later. In reality, he did blow the whistle after touching the abdomen, but it was not when he made it sound it was. And the Sergeant did arrive 2 or 3 minutes later, but he arrived following Andrews and Jacobs down to the alley. The testimony of Jacobs and Badham matches the timings, Andrews testimony makes no sense. In fact, what was reported in the early newspaper reports of Andrews statements, is a complete 180 from his inquest testimony.

It seems to me if Andrews blew the whistle near 12:50 when he was standing over the body, somebody would have been at the body waiting when the three of them returned running from the north end of the street. Instead we have Isaac Jacobs being left alone with the body of Alice and the other two alerting everyone else of the murder. Badham is the person that notified Allen and Neve of the murder. Neither one of them mention a whistle in their testimony.
Jerry Dunlop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2017, 10:16 PM   #25
Anna Morris
Registered User
 
Anna Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho, USA
Posts: 3,421
Default

Great research, Jerry. Interesting subject all the way around.
__________________
If the shawl doesn't fit, you must acquit.~~Henry Flower, Casebook post
Anna Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2017, 12:16 PM   #26
Steve Blomer
Researcher
 
Steve Blomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 192
Default

Hi Jerry.
Interesting thread. So are we at the point of either escape before the whistle is blown out onto Whitechapel high street and not noticed by the fixed point. Or more interestingly are we now seriously asking about disappearing into a house.
The proximity to The GSG is also interesting.


Steve
Steve Blomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2017, 12:30 PM   #27
Anna Morris
Registered User
 
Anna Morris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho, USA
Posts: 3,421
Default

Whistles were a great idea for the police. In a twisted thought, I bet they were good for the escaping murderer also. As he gets away, the sound of a whistle lets him know police are near, "Oh (expletive), they already found that body." So I wonder how that affected the killer of Alice in particular? Did he hide, walk, cut through more backyards than he planned to? Say he was going to fetch dinner at McCarthy's?
__________________
If the shawl doesn't fit, you must acquit.~~Henry Flower, Casebook post
Anna Morris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2017, 02:13 PM   #28
Jerry Dunlop
Information Extractor
 
Jerry Dunlop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 1,309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Blomer View Post
Hi Jerry.
Interesting thread. So are we at the point of either escape before the whistle is blown out onto Whitechapel high street and not noticed by the fixed point. Or more interestingly are we now seriously asking about disappearing into a house.
The proximity to The GSG is also interesting.


Steve
Hi Steve,

Glad you joined in. The whistle was blown after Andrews had already been to the dead body. So if there were another killer, he would have been gone before Andrews arrived to the murder scene initially. I feel Andrews did not blow the whistle that moment but instead a minute or two later after interrogating Issac Jacobs. So escape before the whistle as you say? I don't quite know how to answer.

As far as escaping into a house. Again, the killer, imo, was limited if my timings are somewhat close. The hoarding on the east side of the alley appears to have been fairly high. I'm not sure if that rules out an escape that way or not, but it casts some doubt on the most likely way to get out. Passing the fixed officer without notice is always an option, I guess. The other option is the one I keep open even though it's hard to fathom. The killer never left the alley. He was with Alice through life and death.
Jerry Dunlop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2017, 02:24 PM   #29
Jerry Dunlop
Information Extractor
 
Jerry Dunlop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 1,309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna Morris View Post
Whistles were a great idea for the police. In a twisted thought, I bet they were good for the escaping murderer also. As he gets away, the sound of a whistle lets him know police are near, "Oh (expletive), they already found that body." So I wonder how that affected the killer of Alice in particular? Did he hide, walk, cut through more backyards than he planned to? Say he was going to fetch dinner at McCarthy's?
Anna,

I've often wondered the same thing about the killer/s of these women. What state of mind was he in after leaving a scene? Joyful and laughing as he heard the whistles blown and he successfully escaped? Or scared as hell and full of adrenaline due to the narrow escape? Or both? Then later, even though a safe escape had been made, he may have never known if he had been seen or not, so was he anticipating a knock on his door from the police. I personally think the killer was somewhat/perfectly sober to get away with all of these tight escapes.
Jerry Dunlop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2017, 04:15 PM   #30
Monty
Author, Researcher, God.
 
Monty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,361
Default

It seems a new "four blast" whistle system was introduced after the Coles murder. It was never used for obvious reasons.

This so the news of a murder would be spread rapidly throughout the district, putting all Beat Bobbies on alert.

Monty
__________________
Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622


Co-Author of Sir Howard Vincent's Police Code 1889

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Howard-Vince.../dp/0993180604
Monty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10 Beta 2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright @ Howard & Nina Brown 2015-2022