Somerton Man, Australian Mystery

[Chris Phillips]

Somerton Man enthusiasts may be interested in this interview of Derek Abbott by Richard MacLean Smith for his Unexplained Podcast:

http://www.unexplainedpodcast.com/episodes/2022/9/30/season-06-episode-22-extra-closing-the-webb

This was preceded by a three-part entry on the Somerton Man, which I haven't listened to.

[jachim3926]

This link is too another TSM research facility.
https://tamamshud.blogspot.com/2022/...otographs.html

The photographs are quite interesting, as is the suggestion that there were supposedly two human heads used in the creation of the death
mask. As the old saying goes two heads are better than one! There are differences in the appearances of the ears of Carl Webb and the other person who was photographed and the facial structures seem to be dissimilar.

The author does tend to play down the importance and perhaps relevance from a hair embedded in the plaster cast that was used., preferring to rely upon the dental records of the corpse which has eighteen teeth missing.

I'm left wondering where any of this will lead? We have a body and now a name, but who was Mr. Webb and how and why did his life end on Somerton beach?

[Anna Morris]

They’re saying that TSM’s image was only printed in Adelaide at the time and not Melbourne so the surviving sisters etc might not have recognized him from the news.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101296556

But I’d say between this case and the recent big Jane Doe case in the US, there should be more acceptance of the possible shame factor in cases like MJK. In the US one, the family asked to have the mother’s identity and therefore the Doe’s full ID a secret.

But too much was given away and moderators on forums went crazy deleting posts and the case coroner actually came on Facebook to tell everyone to respect the family and keep quiet.

I too, was thinking of MJK.

The TSM picture was printed in Melbourne quite a while after 1948. Looks like authorities had a clue TSM was from Victoria. The news articles seem to indicate they had some good ideas but it did not progress to an identification. I get the feeling that some did know the true identity. I think there are a lot of questions yet to be answered.

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

They’re saying that TSM’s image was only printed in Adelaide at the time and not Melbourne so the surviving sisters etc might not have recognized him from the news.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101296556

But I’d say between this case and the recent big Jane Doe case in the US, there should be more acceptance of the possible shame factor in cases like MJK. In the US one, the family asked to have the mother’s identity and therefore the Doe’s full ID a secret.

But too much was given away and moderators on forums went crazy deleting posts and the case coroner actually came on Facebook to tell everyone to respect the family and keep quiet.

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

Hi Anna,

They’ve published a picture of his brother from his service record. They do share a resemblance.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101293788

[Chris Phillips]

I have gone on Trove and found some family obituaries for Carl (Charles) Webb's family. (Since Clipular stopped working, I have difficulty clipping stuff though my system can make easier screen shots. I don't know what to do with the screen shots once I get them.....)

Anyway, when Webb's father died in 1939, all the brothers and sisters were mentioned, the last being "Charlie". When his mother died in 1946, the siblings are listed, the last being "Charles". When sister Gladys Scott died in 1955, under survivors it is noted that brother Roy had died as a prisoner of war in Malaya. The other siblings are listed EXCEPT for Charles. Did family know he had passed? If so, why the silence? The profile picture in the Melbourne papers was up close and personal, a bit shocking for the quality of newspaper pictures in those days.

Thanks, that's interesting. On the face of it, that means the family believed he was alive in 1946 but dead by 1955. If there's no death registration in Australia, what are the options? I assume records of other war deaths have been checked.

[Anna Morris]

One last tidbit. This fellow was shot in July 1947, after which there was a big investigation and police really cracked down on Baccarat games.

[Anna Morris]

Maybe of interest. (This will probably come out backwards.) Apparently the "nit-keeper" was a lookout who warned of police raids. This article is from March 1948, Melbourne. It is said the first time a nit-keeper was caught it was a 20 pound fine. The next time, over 200 pounds. The third time, six months in jail. After the first time, it is said, a nit-keeper was no longer employable.

[Anna Morris]

The "nit-keeper" clue came up back in the beginning, late 40's/early 50's. Someone in Melbourne reported to police that TSM might have been a "nit-keeper" at a Baccarat club. That might have been a good occupation for someone good at math, such as an engineer.

I have gone on Trove and found some family obituaries for Carl (Charles) Webb's family. (Since Clipular stopped working, I have difficulty clipping stuff though my system can make easier screen shots. I don't know what to do with the screen shots once I get them.....)

Anyway, when Webb's father died in 1939, all the brothers and sisters were mentioned, the last being "Charlie". When his mother died in 1946, the siblings are listed, the last being "Charles". When sister Gladys Scott died in 1955, under survivors it is noted that brother Roy had died as a prisoner of war in Malaya. The other siblings are listed EXCEPT for Charles. Did family know he had passed? If so, why the silence? The profile picture in the Melbourne papers was up close and personal, a bit shocking for the quality of newspaper pictures in those days.

TSM also peripherally touches some other notorious cases. In 1949 there was the Mangnoson tragedy that seems to have been attempted murder/suicide by a severely mentally ill father who managed to overdose his two year old son on barbiturates, but not himself. Prior to this event which IMO, has nothing to do with TSM, Kieth Mangnoson had said he worked with TSM in 1939 or 1940, in Renmark. He believed he knew TSM as "Carl Thompsen". Mangnosen was employed as a woodcutter when land was being cleared. It looks like Renmark was developed as a wonderful agricultural area, so I wonder if an electrical engineer was employed around that time?

Ordinarily there would be no reason to give a second glance to information from someone as mentally ill as Keith Mangnoson, but Carl Thompsen [sic] is certainly an interesting name.

I am curious about Carl Webb becoming "Charles". Hitler was on the move in 1939. Mangnoson claimed to know a Carl Thompsen [sic] around 1939 or '40. Father, Richard August Webb's obituary in 1939 lists a son "Charlie". Richard August was from Germany and Carl is a fairly German name during a time when Germans became suspect.

Going back to the Baccarat clue, Carl Webb's wife's claims for divorce sound like she had to invent bad treatment in order to obtain a divorce. (No, no-fault divorce in those days?) Anyway, one of her charges was that her husband became very angry when he lost at cards and that his anger upset everyone. Big deal? Maybe, if the game was Baccarat.

Also of interest, at the time of their marriage, Dorothy Robertson who became the wife, was listed as a "foot specialist". Recent descriptions have bumped this up to "podiatrist". Here in the U.S. I think of podiatrists as foot doctors. IMO, a "foot specialist" in 1941 could have been a number of things less than a doctor. But what is interesting to me is the oft reported finding that SMT had extremely developed calf muscles, similar to those of a ballet dancer, or someone who habitually wore boots with high heels. I wonder if Webb had a foot pathology and met his wife when he sought treatment?

As for cause of death, it looks to me that he may have had a viral infection at the time of death and that this plus other medical issues led to death. Digoxin poisoning was suggested but if the dose was acute, there should have been a lot of vomiting and convulsing. If chronic, say taken at a therapeutic dose for a long time, I would expect something more than lying down on a beach and going to sleep.

So, it looks like there are still a bunch of questions even if Carl Webb is absolutely accepted as TSM. Why did not family identify him? Did they believe cause of death was suicide, therefore shame? Was he in trouble with someone(s) in the gambling circles? Why was he not listed in his sister's obituary in 1955? Did they know he was SMT and already dead? If it was known that he was dead, why did the wife continue with the divorce procedure when her life would have been simpler as a widow?

[jachim3926]

Was the cause of death identified? The short answer to that was no, Phillip. Think that Prof, Cleland, one of the pathologists that were called to give statements at the original inquest stated in his opinion the administration of a short acting poison could not be ruled our. There was some suggestion that ouabain, or perhaps curare might have ben used, both of which are difficult to detect post mortem. The Coroner expressed the view that death 'not by natural causes', however the possibility of suicide seems not to have been given serious consideration.

[Phillip Walton]

Was the cause of death identified?

[Chris Phillips]

On Casebook, they mentioned that Webb was a gambler. But the news only mentions him gambling on horses, not cards. Otherwise, I don’t know how the Family Tree maker made the connection to the baccarat candidate.

Thanks. Let's hope more information emerges. If the police investigated Webb as a candidate at the time, perhaps the records of that investigation still exist?

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

On Casebook, they mentioned that Webb was a gambler. But the news only mentions him gambling on horses, not cards. Otherwise, I don’t know how the Family Tree maker made the connection to the baccarat candidate.

[Chris Phillips]

It looks like he was one of the early candidates in 49 described as a Melbourne man who was a "nit keeper" in the baccarat circles. This is given as one of the new sources on Ancestry.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/9805...NTg5NTkwMTQuMA..

That's interesting, but is there anything specific that shows that article is referring to Webb, or is that speculation?

[Markus Aurelius Franzoi]

It looks like he was one of the early candidates in 49 described as a Melbourne man who was a "nit keeper" in the baccarat circles. This is given as one of the new sources on Ancestry.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/9805...NTg5NTkwMTQuMA..