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  • London Catholic bmd

    I thought it might be nice to have a thread to place case-related baptism, marriage and death records from the newly released English Catholic records.

    The first up is the baptism of Joseph Barnett. The date of birth on this record differs to the one given on casebook by exactly one month. I am sure this is Joseph Barnett's baptism record though as there are also records for John, Daniel and Catherine that all correspond.

    Die 17 aprilis 1858 nat ly
    et die 25 aprilis 1858 baptizat ly est
    Josephus Barnett fili Joannis et Catharine (olim Bryan)
    conjugum: [blank] a me Joanni? Alanton
    Patrinius fuit Patritis Barnett Matrina fuit Helena Hayes

    Church St Mary & St Michael
    Parish Commercial Road, Stepney
    Diocese Westminster
    Deanery Tower Hamlets
    Ecclesiastical province Westminster
    County Middlesex

  • #2
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    I thought it might be nice to have a thread to place case-related baptism, marriage and death records from the newly released English Catholic records.

    The first up is the baptism of Joseph Barnett. The date of birth on this record differs to the one given on casebook by exactly one month. I am sure this is Joseph Barnett's baptism record though as there are also records for John, Daniel and Catherine that all correspond.

    Die 17 aprilis 1858 nat ly
    et die 25 aprilis 1858 baptizat ly est
    Josephus Barnett fili Joannis et Catharine (olim Bryan)
    conjugum: [blank] a me Joanni? Alanton
    Patrinius fuit Patritis Barnett Matrina fuit Helena Hayes

    Church St Mary & St Michael
    Parish Commercial Road, Stepney
    Diocese Westminster
    Deanery Tower Hamlets
    Ecclesiastical province Westminster
    County Middlesex
    You must have read my mind, Debs.

    Having just received the Katherine Barnetto marriage cert, I wanted to check out JB's mother's maiden name.

    I see it was Bryan. The Barnetto lady gave her father's name as Joseph Shannon.

    Comment


    • #3
      Since I found John "Johnto" Moore in the Old Bailey case, of course I have done a little more research. There are more Mary Janet Moores than there are Mary Janet Kellies. Unfortunately there are more Moores in London than there are Davies in Wales or Kellies in Ireland (or Liverpool). Anyway, Mary Janet Moore might be something to consider in these old records.

      Maybe too Joe and Mary considered marriage and there might be some sort of record.
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

      Comment


      • #4
        There must have been a mix-up on Joe's civil registration birth certificate. Chris Scott said that Joe's birth cert lists his mother's maiden name as Hayes. It seems that somehow the godmother's name Hayes got listed as the maiden name of Catherine. This would make her Catherine's widowed sister?


        http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/13125.html

        Comment


        • #5
          I think it might not be Joseph Barnett then.

          I checked the John Barnett b 1860 and his mothers maiden name is given as Shanehan. That seems to correspond to the maiden name of Shannon given on the civil marriage certificate Gary mentions.

          In the baptismal entry for Daniel b 1851 his mother's maiden name is given as Brien by the looks of it, which seems to fit with the Bryan on Joseph Barnett's entry.

          I remember looking at an early census once I noticed that living in Hairbrain court there is a Joseph Barnett whose mother was also named Catherine and he was born exactly the same year as 'our' Joseph Barnett.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
            You must have read my mind, Debs.

            Having just received the Katherine Barnetto marriage cert, I wanted to check out JB's mother's maiden name.

            I see it was Bryan. The Barnetto lady gave her father's name as Joseph Shannon.
            And was the surname Barnetto? Or was it mistranscribed? I noticed in one of the baptism entries that the second t in Barnett is looped to look like an 'o'

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
              And was the surname Barnetto? Or was it mistranscribed? I noticed in one of the baptism entries that the second t in Barnett is looped to look like an 'o'
              Looks very much like it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Whoops! That's a biggy. I bet the lights just flickered in Eagleville.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                  I think it might not be Joseph Barnett then.

                  I checked the John Barnett b 1860 and his mothers maiden name is given as Shanehan. That seems to correspond to the maiden name of Shannon given on the civil marriage certificate Gary mentions.

                  In the baptismal entry for Daniel b 1851 his mother's maiden name is given as Brien by the looks of it, which seems to fit with the Bryan on Joseph Barnett's entry.

                  I remember looking at an early census once I noticed that living in Hairbrain court there is a Joseph Barnett whose mother was also named Catherine and he was born exactly the same year as 'our' Joseph Barnett.
                  So could this other Catherine Barnett be the one who ended up, briefly, married to Allman?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I replied on the other thread as you know, Gary. The certificate you have is for the Catherine Barnett who we assume is Joseph's Barnett's mother. The Beer connection seems to confirm that.

                    I wonder what the chances are that John Barnett senior was married to two different women named Catherine and both women bearing him children so that the Barnett clan of Denis, Daniel, John, Catherine and Joseph that we see might be half siblings?

                    Then there's the other Joseph Barnett born the same year and with a mother named Catherine too also living in Hairbrain Court at some point. I will try and follow him up in more detail if I can.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                      I replied on the other thread as you know, Gary. The certificate you have is for the Catherine Barnett who we assume is Joseph's Barnett's mother. The Beer connection seems to confirm that.

                      I wonder what the chances are that John Barnett senior was married to two different women named Catherine and both women bearing him children so that the Barnett clan of Denis, Daniel, John, Catherine and Joseph that we see might be half siblings?

                      Then there's the other Joseph Barnett born the same year and with a mother named Catherine too also living in Hairbrain Court at some point. I will try and follow him up in more detail if I can.
                      I don't know how you keep all this stuff straight in your head. The idea of the Barnett clan possibly being half siblings is intriguing.

                      No chance, I suppose, that MJK's JB was the son of a horse slaughterer? ;-)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                        And was the surname Barnetto? Or was it mistranscribed? I noticed in one of the baptism entries that the second t in Barnett is looped to look like an 'o'
                        Or an 's' - "Barnetts", perhaps?
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen"
                        (F. Nietzsche)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          Or an 's' - "Barnetts", perhaps?
                          Hi Gareth,

                          Yes, I wondered that, but if you look at the s in Thomas, it's a different shape. And the names are written twice on the cert with the same two distinct shapes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                            Yes, I wondered that, but if you look at the s in Thomas, it's a different shape. And the names are written twice on the cert with the same two distinct shapes.
                            "Barnetto" is a bit of an odd construction, though, but "Barnetts" I can understand - a letter "s" can often end up tacked onto a name where it doesn't belong. I know of a few people with the surname "Daniel" or "Jenkin", for example, who invariably get called "Daniels" or "Jenkins". (More recently, and topically I note some folks are rendering Paul Nuttall as Paul Nuttalls.) If not, it might have been a mis-hearing, in which context I'm reminded of someone in work with the name of "Bennett", who pronounced her letter "t" with a certain sibilance. She was frequently, but incorrectly, referred to as "Mrs Bennetts".
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen"
                            (F. Nietzsche)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                              I don't know how you keep all this stuff straight in your head. The idea of the Barnett clan possibly being half siblings is intriguing.

                              No chance, I suppose, that MJK's JB was the son of a horse slaughterer? ;-)
                              I don't really! This is a real puzzle.

                              We have the baptism of a Joseph Barnett, born 17th April 1858, just one month earlier than our Joseph Barnett, his parents are John Barnett and Catherine Bryan.The baptism is carried out at St Mary & St Michael church in the Parish of Commercial Road, Stepney

                              We also have the baptism of a Daniel Barnett born 26 Oct 1851 and baptised 02 Nov 1851, his parents are John Barnett and Catherine Brien. The baptism is carried out at St Mary & St Michael church in the Parish of Commercial Road, Stepney.

                              Both these two records correspond to our Joseph Barnett and his brother Daniel and both seem to have the same parents names, just different spellings of Brien/Bryan. In fact, on a quick look, there appears to be no other Daniel Barnett b c 1851 +/- 5 years in London as far as I can tell but stand to be corrected as one may have died.

                              Then we have a John Barnett born 17 Jun 1860 and baptised 24 Jun 1860, his parents are John Barnett and Catherine shanehan. The baptism is carried out
                              at St Mary & St Michael church in the Parish of Commercial Road, Stepney.

                              The maiden name of Shanehan given for John's mother Catherine directly corresponds to the marriage record you posted, Gary, showing Catherine Barnetto, maiden surname Shannon. We know this is Joseph's mother because the marriage was apparently witnessed by Joseph's sister, Catherine Beer, nee Barnett.

                              The birth details of this John correspond to Joseph's brother in birth year, although there is another John Barnett born the same year.

                              Could John Barnett senior have first married Catherine Bryam/Brien and had his older children Denis, Catherine, Daniel and Joseph with her and then she died and he married Catherine Shanehan/Shannon and had John?!
                              Just throwing that in for thoughts, or any other thoughts on what these records show?

                              Comment

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