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The True Provenance of the Eddowes Shawl?

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  • #16
    No head scratcher required.

    A pair of Chapmans Nike Air trainers.

    I think many are in argeement Stewart,

    The shawl is not Eddowes shawl.

    Do we have details of the donors connection to the case? I assume they are Simpsons decendants.

    And do we know who's signature is on the back of the frame?

    Monty

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    • #17
      Apparently...

      Apparently the people in the video shop in St. Osyth Road, Clacton, who owned the framed pieces of material were John and Janice Dowler. They had been told about the shawl by a friend who knew an antique dealer from whom they had received the information.

      They eventually obtained the framed pieces by way of exchange for a rare copy of a first edition of the Radio Times. They were, however, skeptical about the authenticity of the pieces. Amos Simpson's name, of course, came into the equation as it appears on the note on the reverse of the framed pieces. The shawl had been in the hands of Simpson's descendants up until the time it was donated to the museum. I discovered that the owner was a gentleman named David Melville Hayes, of Clacton, who was an antique furniture restorer. He was (is) a very pleasant gentleman with whom I had a few telephone conversations.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SPE View Post
        Who is scratching their head? I'm not, I'm perfectly happy that the 'shawl' has absolutely nothing to do with Eddowes.
        .
        Hi Stewart

        Yes I realized everyone was in agreement that it wasnt the possession of Cathrine Eddows.

        And many thanks for the supplied photo's.

        I was reffering to Monty's comment about it being a table Clothe?

        To my knowledge it was simply a strip of material 'without' purpose. In other words it had never been anything in particular, so the word 'Shawl' is miss leading. But I'm not 100% on this... could it ever have been a curtain foreinstance? Does in contain any evidence of sewing or alteration?

        Yours Jeff

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        • #19
          Amos Simpson

          Amos Simpson, a retired Metropolitan policeman, was the great, great uncle of David Melville Hayes and all that David knew about the 'shawl' was the family tradition, apparently originating with Amos Simpson, that he had taken the shawl from the body of Catherine Eddowes and that he was first at the murder scene in Mitre Square.

          The more astute of our readers will be, by now, aware of holes beginning to appear in the provenance story. Not least of all the fact that Amos Simpson was a Met officer and not a City officer, Mitre Square being well inside the City Police area. Also we know that PC Simpson was not the first on the scene in Mitre Square and we know from surviving documents that no Metropolitan police officer was known to have attended the scene before the body was removed.

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          • #20
            I should, perhaps...

            I should, perhaps, interject here with the information that one of the informed people (without naming names) who examined the 'shawl' at the Yard was of the opinion that it looked more like a long table runner than a shawl. Not least of all because its dimensions are 8 feet long by 2 feet wide.

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            • #21
              Amos Simpson again...

              To get back to Amos Simpson again, he was born at Acton in Suffolk on 27 November 1846 and joined the Metropolitan Police force Y Division, on 24 February 1868. On 26 July 1886 he transferred to N (Islington) Division with which division he served until his resignation on 27 March 1893. He was serving as acting sergeant at the time of his resignation.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by SPE View Post
                I should, perhaps, interject here with the information that one of the informed people (without naming names) who examined the 'shawl' at the Yard was of the opinion that it looked more like a long table runner than a shawl. Not least of all because its dimensions are 8 feet long by 2 feet wide.
                Thanks for that Stewart

                I'm sure i'm going to regret asking this..but what is a table runner?

                Yours Jeff

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                • #23
                  Thanks Stewart for the info.

                  To follow on from Stewart's posts,

                  As Stewart points out, there are no reports of H Division personnel in Mitre Square during the hours surrounding Eddowes death. Also, the only way Simpson could have been near the area is if he was seconded in to H Division to supplement the increase in strength which occurred during the murders.

                  Simon Woods excellent breakdown of H Divisions personnel does not show a PC Amos Simpson being drafted in. In fact no drafting from N Division seems to have happened.

                  http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...personnel.html. See Police Orders 31 Oct 88

                  The family story, to me, simply makes no sense.

                  Monty

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
                    Thanks for that Stewart

                    I'm sure i'm going to regret asking this..but what is a table runner?

                    Yours Jeff
                    Its a decorative piece often made of lace that is placed on a table usually the 'best' table in the parlour over the tablecloth. My grandmother still had sideboard runners which were similar up until her death in the 1970's. They were very much a LVP fashion.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Phillip Walton View Post
                      Its a decorative piece often made of lace that is placed on a table usually the 'best' table in the parlour over the tablecloth. My grandmother still had sideboard runners which were similar up until her death in the 1970's. They were very much a LVP fashion.
                      You can still buy them, my wife has a couple. Typically a narrow strip of material that runs along the length of a sideboard, or across the middle of the dining table to present a 'best' look when visitors are coming
                      Regards, Jon S.
                      "
                      The theory that the murderer is a lunatic is dispelled by the opinion given to the police by an expert in the treatment of lunacy patients......."If he's insane
                      " observed the medical authority, "he's a good deal sharper than those who are not".
                      Reynolds Newspaper, 4 Nov. 1888.

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                      • #26
                        Although there is no proof that Simpson was seconded do we have complete lists?
                        If he was on duty near the City border it is conceivable he went to the murder scene I would have thought.
                        Although not a purpose made shawl, and seemingly more of a strip of material, does this mean it couldn't have been used as a shawl?
                        What actual proof is there that it isn't genuine?

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                        • #27
                          Simple Analysis

                          A simple analysis of all the City Police sources for the Eddowes murder show that there was no Met officer in attendance. And nor would, or should, there be. It was well off their territory, they had no jurisdiction on the City area and such an officer's presence would surely have been noted by the City had he been there. There were City officers with Eddowes' body until it was removed. And that 'shawl', at 8 feet by 2 feet, was too huge to slip into your pocket. No, the whole story is a contrived nonsense.

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                          • #28
                            Amos Simpson contd...

                            Amos Simpson died at Barrow Hill, Acton, Suffolk, on 10 April 1917. The 'shawl' was left in the possession of his family...

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                            • #29
                              Looking at photograph 2, post 14, I conclude that the only way this claim could be correct, would be if Simpson found Eddowes before Watkins did, and immediately set off (in pursuit of the killer?) but not before he had grabbed her shawl! It doesn't seem very likely.

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                              • #30
                                Just to play devil's advocate here, but isn't it possible that the shawl was discarded some distance from the body, and Amos Simpson found it while the police were swarming around the area looking for clues and suspects?

                                Rob H

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