The True Provenance of the Eddowes Shawl?

[Monty]

Monty
Are you saying that a stray Met Officer appearing at Mitre Square while the City Police were busy fussing around Eddowes’s body would have been regarded as a matter of significance? Something worth reporting by McWilliam? That doesn’t seem likely to me.

Yep, very much so. Simpson would have stood out like Sid Vicious at a Mormon gathering.

What, you think the Police were large in number and wandering aimlessly about? You've been watching too much From Hell.

If Simpson did find and retrieve a shawl then he clearly kept it and did not hand it in. Hence he would not have been called as a witness about the shawl.

If so then he risked instant dismissal. Does Simpson seem that type to you? Looking at his record.

Quite a number of City Police went to Goulston Street – not to pursue a criminal or prevent a crime, but to follow up the Eddowes murder to a location where evidence was found. Other City Police carried out concealed observations in Met territory. So clearly the ‘rules’ of crossing boundaries were not as limited as you suggest.

Quite a number of City Detectives went to Goulston Street, not beat constables. So clearly you are not au fait with constable duties.

Observations would have been conducted with the. Mets knowledge, and visa versa. Surviellence may not be, however notification would be made as soon as possile, to avoid suspicion of the observers themselves.

[QUOTE]I should have thought that what was immediately regarded as another ’Whitechapel Murder’ occurring 300 yards from the Met border would have been regarded as an important event. If a Met Officer was very close by and heard the alarm being raised (whether via Morris’ whistle or another means – perhaps by speaking to a City Policeman) then surely it would have been quite understandable and excusable for him to go to see what had happened.
And I would think that if he appeared there for a few minutes just as Eddowes was being taken away, then his name and details may well have gone unrecorded.
So if, hypothetically, Simpson was seconded and was on beat duty near the City border is it really that improbable that his brief presence at Mitre Square could have escaped being reported?/QUOTE]

How was it known a Whitechapel murder had occurred?

No, it wasn't excuseable for a beat constanble to attend a scene off is juridiction and already under control. Their duty is to their beat, so much that Neil, Watkins, Harvey, Lamb et al all returned to their beat duties after the event.

Now if you wish to argue the toss Ed, that's fine. The scenarios you propose are not realistic and flies in the face of procedure and previous known events.

Bottom line is we have no record of Simpson being transerred to H, no record of him being in Mitre Square, no reasonable reason for him to be there, no reasonable reason for him to jepordise his career, nothing in the story adds up at all.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Yep, very much so. Simpson would have stood out like Sid Vicious at a Mormon gathering.

What, you think the Police were large in number and wandering aimlessly about? You've been watching too much From Hell.

But surely the large old piece of cloth covered in blood would have helped him blend in?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Edward Stow]

Monty
You said you were not sure whether Simpson was seconded.
No one could name all the policemen at Bucks Row or at Mitre Square or at any of the murder scenes for the simple reason that the extant reports do not list them all.
Do policemen always act in strict accordance with their proper duties?
Do the actions of the beat policemen involved in this case always conform to best practice? Were they punished?

Simpson could have been missing from his beat for less than ten minutes going to Mitre Square and back.

How was it known that another 'Whitechapel Murder' had taken place? Hmmm I would suggest it was assumed the moment the body was discovered.

Simpson presumably claimed to his family that the cloth had belonged to Eddowes which suggests he was unconcerned about being thought of by his family as a bit of a thief.



I'm not arguing the toss. I think its very unlikely to be Eddowes' shawl, but it seems to me that claims to the contrary have not been demolished.

[Anna Morris]

I looked all over the internet for pictures of this shawl because I read somewhere it was in the Black Museum. General description in other places was that is was a green shawl with embroidered daisies.

Looking at the pictures in post 14, the design seems like it could be done by a batik method. There were some really bright and odd things coming out of India in Victorian times.

Following the discussion about it being a table runner,I have no opinion on that. It is possible for a woman to use a "shawl" or stoll (sp?) of those dimensions but that would usually be for decoration more than for warmth unless it was wrapped around her neck. (I just crocheted one about that long but I'm 5'9" tall and plan to wrap it around my neck.)

If this item was Eddowes' shawl I am surprised no one commented on her having an odd item like that or that no one mentioned her wrapping something bright like that around her neck, etc. But consider also that it is supposed to be silk and silk can easily be compacted into small spaces. That's an awkward way of saying if it was silk, Kate could have had it in her "pocket" or secreted another way on her person. She need not have worn it exactly. These women picked up what they could when they could. (Liz Stride left a piece of velvet with a friend.) It is not far fetched to think Kate obtained a table runner or something similar along the way. It is also possible she used it as a wrap or scarf.

This in no way supports or not the provenance of this item but these are some additional thoughts about how Kate might have used an actual table runner or odd piece of fabric.

[Maria Birbili]

Textiles are tricky. Didn't they find How Brown's fingerprints on the Turin shroud?

And AP's DNA, and it's female. :-O

[Monty]

Monty
You said you were not sure whether Simpson was seconded.
No one could name all the policemen at Bucks Row or at Mitre Square or at any of the murder scenes for the simple reason that the extant reports do not list them all.

Ed, Simpson is Met, its a City crime scene, he would have stood out and been noticed. However, Im sure you are fully aware of that, and the securing of the crime scene for CID.

Do policemen always act in strict accordance with their proper duties?
Do the actions of the beat policemen involved in this case always conform to best practice? Were they punished?

Avoiding the real reasoning behind your protractions, Mizen, I shall respond...

No.

Yes.

Yes.

Simpson could have been missing from his beat for less than ten minutes going to Mitre Square and back.

If Simpson had a beat, and if he was there, he would have been missing for 2/3 of his beat. Longs location makes him the closest Met Constable to Mitre Square. If Simpson was seconded to a H division beat, he would have been further away than Long, who reported nothing with regards a hue and cry until after 2.55am.

How was it known that another 'Whitechapel Murder' had taken place? Hmmm I would suggest it was assumed the moment the body was discovered.

Hmm, by the sound of a whistle alone? The most common use of the whistle, which was in fact very rare, was fire.

Simpson presumably claimed to his family that the cloth had belonged to Eddowes which suggests he was unconcerned about being thought of by his family as a bit of a thief.

Clearly, yet still open for prosecution whilst he was alive.

I'm not arguing the toss. I think its very unlikely to be Eddowes' shawl, but it seems to me that claims to the contrary have not been demolished.

Nor have the claims been proven. They evidence strongly leans away from this being Eddowes shall. It is beyond reasonable doubt.

Monty

[Jeff Leahy]

I looked all over the internet for pictures of this shawl because I read somewhere it was in the Black Museum. General description in other places was that is was a green shawl with embroidered daisies.
.

I've blown up the section kindly provided by Stewart. Which is a photo of the strips given to the Palours. I'm afraid it doesn't offer much detail. Its possible I've got a better resolution on the big Drives which I'll look for in my journey's tomorrow.

Yours Jeff

[Anna Morris]

Hi Jeff:

I went to the beginning of the thread & saw this enlargement. Thank you for posting it again.

I enlarged it as much as I could & looked at it for a long time. It looks like a batik type print and certainly unusual. (Reminds me of fabrics during hippie days in the 1960s.) It sure doesn't match the comment somewhere on line that said it was green silk with embroidered daisies. This comment was not on a recognized site and I was never able to follow it to a picture so perhaps it was all made up.

[Anna Morris]

So what the heck do we have in POST 14? That looks like an East Indian batik print. Sure doesn't look like the latest find. Doesn't resemble Michaelmas daisies to me. Is there an industry in Kate Eddowe's shawls, even though one witness recalled seeing her alive on the street, recognising her by her white apron!

Somewhere on the internet I have seen Kate's 'shawl' described as having a green background with a floral print but I never tracked down the origin of that story nor any pictures. It was said to have an elaborate fringe and was compared to Spanish work.

[Anna Morris]

Actually I made a mistake on the green Spanish shawl. As I recall it was suppose to be heavily embroidered and I thought that might be the reason a woman would want the fabric, as in the policeman's wife. So I add this also in reply to Robert's question on the other thread. I'm not sure this shawl actually exists but someone wrote about it.

[Jeff Leahy]

Just to add hear that the Shawl never went near Cathrine Eddow…its edwardian

However I noted that the news feature claims it wasn't Cathrines…clever..but left by Aron himself…presumably because he was a Tailour?

Now all we require is a Tardis :cool:

Its Edwardian

Jeff

[Lynn Cates]

thanks

Hello Jeff. Thanks for that. Good to hear from a serious Kosminski chap.

Cheers.
LC

[Mick Reed]

A load of bollocks?

Well, the world's press and various Ripper forums are in a real lather over Kate Eddowes shawl.

Has anyone seen the book which isn't due out until tomorrow? Until we have, everything we opine about is just so much hot air.

My guess is that the book will be the all-to-common hotchpotch of poorly-researched claptrap by people who neither understand the principles of historical research nor the complexities of DNA analysis and interpretation.

But, until I've read the bloody thing, I can't be sure so I will refrain from commenting further except to say that, if I wanted people to believe my theories, I certainly wouldn't ask the Daily Mail or its Sunday stablemate, to be my news outlet.

I suppose this means I'm going to have to buy the bloody thing.

Cheers

Mick

[Anna Morris]

It all amounts to publicity released on a weekend in the autumn around the times the murders took place. (Annie Chapman died today Sept. 8, though it is probably yesterday already in the UK.) It is a fantastic book launch which equals sale which equals money and probably movie deals. The author has the world's ears and that isn't too bad. For brisk sales and controversy the 'Daily Mail' is a great place to start.

[Debra Arif]

It's already listed as the #1 Best Seller in Serial Killers True Accounts on Amazon.com.