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  • #16
    Originally posted by Currerbell View Post
    Pilgrim - Why do they mention body odours when describing the suspect???

    That seems a weird thing to say...
    Originally posted by Nemo View Post
    I think in that case the police were concentrating on the sports connection and were wondering whether he came from a gym/jogging etc before the attacks

    If I remember correctly, it was found that he came from the gym after having showered
    Quite close. Adrian Babb worked as a swimming pool attendant. If Babb had been swimming the victims would have been noticing a distinct lack of body odours, probably caused by chlorine.

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    • #17
      Judgment, Memory and Intelligence of Paranoid Individuals.

      The Judgment of Paranoid Individuals.

      Nonparanoid patients more often contemplate than implement their negative impulses. For example, many obsessive-compulsives, instead of becoming violent, quake in the face of any possible violent behaviour on their part, while many depressives, instead of becoming violent over, just despair about the situation. In contrast, paranoid individuals often do act on their false beliefs because they are convinced that they are justified in doing so. They show frequent and sometimes serious lapses of self-control, where they put others down, destroy property, happily defeat imagined rivals, or harm or maim presumed adversaries.

      The depth and breadth of a delusional system is not always a reliable predictor of problems with judgment. The relationship between delusion and behaviour is too complex to say with any degree of conviction that the more delusional a patient is the more affected his or her judgment will be. Some patients reality-test even the most extensive delusional complexes and suppress any behaviour they sense to be driven by delusion. Conversely, modest delusions may paradoxically go untested and lead to unproductive or dangerous behaviour, including horrific crimes.

      Of course, not all paranoid ideas when lived out produce self-destructive, anti-social, criminal or violent activity that is the essence of bad judgment. While the positive aspects of paranoia, however significant, are rarely the basis for a compliment, it is nonetheless sometimes true that paranoid ideation can produce good behaviour that at least on the surface looks as if it is the product of good judgment. Persecutory delusions might impel patients to do good deeds in order to be spared retribution at the hands of those they imagine to be against them, and grandiose delusions commonly lead to behaviour that has clear, definite and lasting social benefits. Paranoia itself is often associated with, and even productive of, such worthy, valuable and self-protective personality traits as enhanced empathy, motivation to get to the top in order to defeat one's true adversaries, and a radar-like sensitivity to danger that warns that real enemies are approaching. It can also be associated with true and valuable talent such as the ability to be a good debater on talk shows or in the courtroom or the ability to think and write like Franz Kafka.

      The Memory of Paranoid Individuals.

      Paranoid individuals often suffer from a memory that is too good (hypermnesis). They endow each little component of their self-created litttle neoreality with a precision and luminosity otherwise unimaginable. They have a marvelous recall for adversarial situations and for every one of their feelings and instincts that they can connect with such situations. On the other hand, their bad memory (hypomnesia) is remarkably profound when it comes to remembering anything that interferes with their image of the world as populated with the weak and the wicked. Selectively remembering what is bad and forgetting, that is, repressing, what is good about a person or an event is in fact more central to the process of delusional formation than the textbooks usually suggests.

      The Intelligence of Paranoid Individuals.

      Intelligence can be impaired when paranoid individuals become too opinionated, too critical, too anxious, or too angry to accurately evaluate and assimilate a situation. That is why it is sometimes hard to distinguish between fanaticism and stupidity. However, intelligence can remain unimpaired when delusional thought and aroused emotions are successfully encapsulated. Some paranoid individuals at least seem to possess above average intelligence. The paranoid-style ability to uncover relationships between apparently unrelated issues - relationships that most of us miss - partly defines the concept of intelligence, which consists in part of the capacity for insightful supersleuthing that leads to recognize overarching principles in the midst of what to others looks like chaos. The paranoid individual's special and often cunning ability to see into the heart of matters, put a finger on the basics, and then decide what exactly the next right move should be are all parameters of that elusive gift we call being brilliant.

      Martin Kantor, Understanding Paranoia.

      ~~~

      Henry van de Velde (1863-1957) - Blankenberghe, 1888 / Georges Lemmen (1865-1916) - View of the Thames, 1892.


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      • #18
        Pilgrim:

        Thats a great post and thanks for sharing it,along with the art work.
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        • #19
          Reading a little from the link to Marvin Kantor's book on paranoia reminds me of what someone once said in reference to Judaism.

          The two classic symptoms of paranoia are delusions of grandeur and the belief of being in constant persecution.

          Judaism is based, not necessarily practiced, on the delusion of one tribe being ordained by some anthropomorphic entity to dispense light upon the world and being the selected or chosen people by said anthropomorphic entity. This could probably be said by that other entity in some regards,Christianity. Many Christians figure they have all the answers as provided by a few bearded schlubs who lived in the desert 2,000 years ago and didn't even own a horse.

          In addition, Jews have been described as a "race of professional victims",since they are first and foremost known for the real and imagined persecutions which are percieved to threaten their existence. Let me give one recent example of this sort of "imagined persecution":

          Over the last few months or so,as I am sure many here have read, the financial devastation unleashed by the Jewish man named Madoff ( The Ponzi scheme...or pyramid scam,if you will) in the US...whose first name escapes me at the moment...has been a fairly hot topic. One result of the financial chicanery of this man,who merely happens to be Jewish, was that some social engineering watchdogs took it upon themselves to "warn" people in the print media of the imminent,impending rehashing of "anti-Semitic" sentiments as a result of Madoff being Jewish and how the world ( read: Goyim ) would be a little wiser if we all knew of the philanthropistic work of many other Jews simply to offset the damage done by Madoff..

          It was a completely unnecessary effort by the "watchdogs" because very few would have put "2 and 2 together" and "used" it to further perpetuate the less than appreciable cases of tangible anti-Semitism which may exist.

          In short, had the watchdogs not brought out the irrelevant fact that Madoff merely happened to be Jewish, there would have no mention of his ethnic or religious ( if he even is a practicing Jew) background at all. They, these masters of the media, dug the groundwork for any potential "anti-Semitic" "backlash" by mentioning Madoff's background in the first place.

          Bottom line, it might be worth considering that paranoia may be a learned.shared and subsequently, cultural mechanism for survival. It certainly could have existed in the LVP among the cadre of recently arrived Jews from the Pale and points east...when "rolling over" on one of their fellow Jews could be considered a mild form of treason. I understand that as I am sure many of us here do as well.

          However, in the case of the Whitechapel Murders, where murders are committed, I disagree strongly with Sir Robert Anderson and even some Jews themselves, who posited the notion that "low class Jews" would be more likely than not to NOT turn one of their own in to Gentile justice....when the condition was just a little more serious than simply stealing a horse or beating up a neighbor or jacking up the price of an item...and dealt with murder(s).

          The theory of a cadre of a certain class of Jews being cognizant of the Ripper's handiwork and not turning him in doesn't depend specifically, but nevertheless does include the two following elements within that argument.

          First, that had the Ripper lived with his own ( his family) it would require the people he was being harbored by or living with to accept and tolerate someone who may at any time use the same knife that he used on strangers upon them. Charity,like acts of evil,usually begins at home.

          Secondly, it would require that the people who "knew" he was the Ripper to have no qualms about him considering and acting out a plan to eliminate those whose knowledge of his deeds might result in his apprehension. No witnesses are the best witnesses to a killer like Jack The Ripper.

          Any comments?
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          • #20
            Ive been to Blankenburge...that painting is nice...

            Why do we think the policeman picked up the apron? Wouldnt it have looked like a bit of rubbish? Or it was a huge blood red stained piece that stuck out like a sore thumb?

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            • #21
              Sar:

              You know...I was wondering that myself a while back...thanks for bringing it up

              If it was a small section of the apron, then what would draw Long's attention to it?

              If it had been drenched in blood, that would be understandable.

              If there was something else along with the apron which was prominent...and was never revealed by the police... ( Probably very unlikely and probably impossible to keep secret even if it were attempted. We've heard that police departments throughout history have held back from revealing all of the evidence on occasion relevant to cases)...then that might have been what attracted Long.

              My guess, Currerbell, is that it was of sufficient size and Long was sufficiently alert enough to notice it.
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              • #22
                No probs, sorry I couldnt comment on your post, Im sure someone will...

                Wasnt Long dismissed for being drunk on duty in the end? Bless, it must have all got to him...

                Anyway, yeah, I agree, it must have been noticible for him to see it in the poor light, and want to investigate further... I just couldnt understand while you are walking around on duty with poor street lighting, and your little bullseye lamp, and you manage to spot a potentially crucial piece of evidence to a massive case...pure luck? Coincidence? Or a very observant copper?

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                • #23
                  I'm pretty certain that it was tea-towel sized or larger, and one corner at least was saturated with blood

                  I can't see the connection between "lived with his own people" and the supposition that he was "harboured" by those he lived with

                  There are numerous examp[les of killers who lived with other people who had no idea that person was a killer - often while bodies were present in the house

                  Look at Kosminski, if he slept in a shop at night then who would witness his comings and goings?

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                  • #24
                    Thanks Nemo

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                    • #25
                      I can't see the connection between "lived with his own people" and the supposition that he was "harboured" by those he lived with

                      There are numerous examples of killers who lived with other people who had no idea that person was a killer - often while bodies were present in the house

                      Look at Kosminski, if he slept in a shop at night then who would witness his comings and goings?
                      -Nemo

                      I agree 100 % Nemo,old bean. I'll set up a thread for that shortly.
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                      • #26
                        Paranoia - differential diagnosis.

                        Differential diagnosis

                        Because of the surface similarities of the paranoia involved, it is important that the Paranoid Personality Disorder not be confused with paranoid schizophrenia, another totally different type of mental disorder where the patient has constant feelings of being watched, followed or persecuted.Those with paranoid personality disorder are hypersensitive, are easily slighted, and habitually relate to the world by vigilant scanning of the environment for clues or suggestions to validate their prejudicial ideas or biases. They tend to be guarded and suspicious and have quite constricted emotional lives. Their incapacity for meaningful emotional involvement and the general pattern of isolated withdrawal often lend a quality of schizoid isolation to their life experience.

                        Wikipedia/Paranoid_personality_disorder


                        ~~~

                        Personally, I find it very unlikely that this murderer would have been a full-blown paranoid schizophrenic. With the exception that the Whitechapel murders probably did represent a singular eruption of a (borderline) psychotic state otherwise fairly well-hidden. It has been pointed out a number of times that the evidence seems to suggest a partially organized/disorganized killer. A paranoid schizophrenic would be more clearly disorganized, and such an individual would seem much more unlikely to escape detection. Which may of course be one reason why the "raving lunatic theory" necessarily rests on the assumption that he was, within a very short time, "safely caged in an asylum". It seems to me that ideas like that tend to represent wishful thinking - that is, the wish that he were, in some way, justly punished. It seems to me that the evidence suggests otherwise. The seemingly partially organized character of the crimes suggests that he was 'paranoid' in the above sense - i.e. a trait that would rather form part of a very different character.

                        The mutilations do seem to suggest a severe delusion reminiscent of schizophrenia. But in my view the seemingly sudden rise of aggression - the fact that the most easily recognizable part of the murder series was completed within a time span of no more than 2-3 months - suggests a masked psychosis, revealed by a singular life event.


                        ~~~

                        The term "mask of sanity" derives from Cleckley's observations that, unlike people with major mental disorders, a "psychopath" can appear to be perfectly - even robustly - normal, charming and engaging, and does not typically suffer from any neurosis or psychotic symptoms, hallucinations or delusions; nevertheless, there is a definite underlying psychosis.*

                        ...

                        In many patients the disturbance classed as schizoid personality might be more accurately regarded as masked schizophrenia or, as has been sometimes said,"ambulatory" schizophrenia. Although the more gross technical signs of psychosis are not evident on the surface, many of these patients have a very serious disorder within. The tendency to call their condition schizoid personality (and therefore label them as definitely "sane") sometimes results in their being incorrectly treated. Very dangerous tendencies, well concealed, may emerge into tragic acts.

                        Hervey Cleckley, The Mask of Sanity, p.252.

                        Such patients are perhaps more accurately indicated by the term "masked schizophrenia" than by "schizoid personality," which may, artificially and unrealistically, ignore the true state of very ill and dangerous persons and classify them with those presumably deviated in mild degree. Some patients of this sort eventually show themselves to be psychotic, and it then becomes apparent that a serious inner disorder has, perhaps for many years, been masked by the minor overt peculiarities that constitute what is generally regarded as schizoid personality. Sometimes in patients with masked schizophrenia the serious inner pathology is so well concealed that the patient may be almost indistinguishable from the typical psychopath. It is important to keep in mind that the excellence of the superficial aspect of the patient (whether he be called a masked schizophrenic or a psychopath) gives no reliable indication of how serious the inner, concealed, and at the time undemonstrable pathology may prove to be or how disastrously and unpredictably it may be expressed when it erupts into disastrous antisocial behavior. Like the very dangerous and profoundly ill ambulatory schizophrenic patient whose central disorder is well masked and not yet demonstrable, the psychopath has a concealed but very real and grave pathology. Unlike other types of masked psychosis, the central personality "lesions" of the psychopath are not covered over by peripheral or surface functioning suggestive of some eccentricity or peculiarity of personality but by a perfect mask of genuine sanity, a flawless surface indicative in every respect of robust mental health.

                        (...)

                        There are, however, other masked schizophrenics who resemble the typical psychopath much more closely. I have seen a number of patients who were classified by able and experienced psychiatrists as typical psychopaths (antisocial personalities) and by others, equally able, as very well-masked schizophrenics. About these patients the difference of judgment lay in estimates of how effectively the surface function masked the inner disorder and gave an appearance of full health. There was usually no disagreement in the conclusion by all the psychiatrists that an underlying disorder was severe and maximally disabling. The deceptive qualities of the excellent disguise, the perfection of the mask, afford no reliable indication that the true condition is mild or moderate and no assurance that it may not be far more serious than the disability of some patients in whom auditory hallucinations and bizarre delusions can be readily demonstrated.

                        Ibid, pp. 253-54.

                        ~~~


                        But there are also other elements and these contribute to the impression of latent violence. Thus the broad, gleaming central area creates expansive movement that almost explodes the balance of the picture. All other shapes are clearly in conflict with this one. The apparently peaceful scene is thus given a tension in contrast to our expectations of the subject. Sensations change, and instead of peace we sense an almost aggressive attitude. The sun-soaked beach is transformed before our eyes into an arena, a place where a belligerent incident is due to take place. (Klaus-Jürgen Sembach, 1989.)

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