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C-5: Killed While Soliciting or Not?

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  • C-5: Killed While Soliciting or Not?

    It looks like this is a new/old hot topic right now. Were the C-5 actively soliciting when they were killed? I used to be interested in identifying JtR and I thought about a lot of different scenarios that led to the murders. I felt some of the women were not soliciting when they were attacked and if another pattern could develop, we might find Jack.

    We know at least three of the five were desperate for money on the night/mornings they were killed. Polly, Annie and Kate did not have shelter for the night. Mary Kelly was probably under pressure to pay the rent the next day. We don know about Liz; she had earned a few pennies during the day but she had also had a restaurant meal.

    One reason I question whether at least Polly and Annie were soliciting is because no one ever came forward to say the women had approached any man. Part of the mystery in the case, at least the way authors write it, is that Polly and Annie disappeared into the dark night and were never seen alive again.

    Both Polly and Annie had made remarks that they would soon earn their doss money. At least Polly had the opportunity to return to the boarding house to bunk with a friend but she turned down the offer. Was she determined to earn her way or did she have something else planned?

    Another factor that makes me question active solicitation is that three of the murders seem to have happened long after the pubs closed. How available would potential clients have been around 3:00 AM or later?

    (Or maybe Polly and Annie simply did not earn enough for a doss, so they slept rough.)

    I wonder and have asked before, if there was a man who sometimes loaned a little money to desperate women? Catherine Eddowes seemed to have a destination in mind after she left gaol. Pizer, though not JtR, was accused of being rough with unfortunates. Might there have been another man something like Pizer who could be counted on for a few pennies when a woman was desperate?

    Annie and Kate were killed near markets which were setting up. Mary was killed on the morning of Lord Mayor´s Day so I would assume some vending would have been happening. Did they know someone who could be practically guaranteed to give/lend them a few pennies in exchange for a bit of work or something other than their bodies? (Some of us are very interested in men with odd gaits or who limped. Might there have been a crippled man who needed help? For that matter, as I remember, Pizer had an odd gait? So someone like Pizer?)

    There must be other possibilities? If the women were not soliciting due to the late hour or other factors, what was their Plan B to raise a few pennies for survival?

    (I have not thought about this for a long time because I lost interest in finding Jack. Enough modern serial killers have been caught and have talked and they have nothing worth hearing. Their reasoning, if they have any introspection at all, is so sickening that no mentally healthy person wants to hear it. I doubt JtR was any different and he likely blamed his victims for causing him to kill. My original interest in serial killers was, ¨WHY¨? They are all similar and their answers make no sense.)
    The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

  • #2
    refreshing

    Hello Anna. Thanks for asking these questions.


    Quite refreshing compared to the standard palaver.


    Cheers.
    LC

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Lynn Cates View Post
      Hello Anna. Thanks for asking these questions.


      Quite refreshing compared to the standard palaver.


      Cheers.
      LC
      Thank you so much!
      The wickedness of the world is the dream of the plague.~~Voynich Manuscript

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
        It looks like this is a new/old hot topic right now. Were the C-5 actively soliciting when they were killed? I used to be interested in identifying JtR and I thought about a lot of different scenarios that led to the murders. I felt some of the women were not soliciting when they were attacked and if another pattern could develop, we might find Jack.

        We know at least three of the five were desperate for money on the night/mornings they were killed. Polly, Annie and Kate did not have shelter for the night. Mary Kelly was probably under pressure to pay the rent the next day. We don know about Liz; she had earned a few pennies during the day but she had also had a restaurant meal.

        One reason I question whether at least Polly and Annie were soliciting is because no one ever came forward to say the women had approached any man. Part of the mystery in the case, at least the way authors write it, is that Polly and Annie disappeared into the dark night and were never seen alive again.

        Both Polly and Annie had made remarks that they would soon earn their doss money. At least Polly had the opportunity to return to the boarding house to bunk with a friend but she turned down the offer. Was she determined to earn her way or did she have something else planned?

        Another factor that makes me question active solicitation is that three of the murders seem to have happened long after the pubs closed. How available would potential clients have been around 3:00 AM or later?

        (Or maybe Polly and Annie simply did not earn enough for a doss, so they slept rough.)

        I wonder and have asked before, if there was a man who sometimes loaned a little money to desperate women? Catherine Eddowes seemed to have a destination in mind after she left gaol. Pizer, though not JtR, was accused of being rough with unfortunates. Might there have been another man something like Pizer who could be counted on for a few pennies when a woman was desperate?

        Annie and Kate were killed near markets which were setting up. Mary was killed on the morning of Lord Mayor´s Day so I would assume some vending would have been happening. Did they know someone who could be practically guaranteed to give/lend them a few pennies in exchange for a bit of work or something other than their bodies? (Some of us are very interested in men with odd gaits or who limped. Might there have been a crippled man who needed help? For that matter, as I remember, Pizer had an odd gait? So someone like Pizer?)

        There must be other possibilities? If the women were not soliciting due to the late hour or other factors, what was their Plan B to raise a few pennies for survival?

        (I have not thought about this for a long time because I lost interest in finding Jack. Enough modern serial killers have been caught and have talked and they have nothing worth hearing. Their reasoning, if they have any introspection at all, is so sickening that no mentally healthy person wants to hear it. I doubt JtR was any different and he likely blamed his victims for causing him to kill. My original interest in serial killers was, ¨WHY¨? They are all similar and their answers make no sense.)

        Blamed his victims for causing him to kill !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Polly Nichols
        If the below article is correct it clearly points to prostitution

        2:30 AM -- She meets Emily Holland, . Holland describes her as "very drunk and staggered against the wall.. Polly tells Emily that she had had her doss money three times that day and had drunk it away. She says she will return to Flower and Dean Street where she could share a bed with a man after one more attempt to find trade. "I've had my doss money three times today and spent it." She says, "It won't be long before I'm back." Found murdered

        I dont think that relates to borrowing money, begging, or stealing to get money. To me its quite specific what her intent was by the term referred to

        Street prostitution hasn't changed much prostitutes frequent specific areas, males seeking out prostitutes will go to those areas, and those who use them regularly will keep going back to those locations. So I would imagine anyone out at that time like Polly would know where to go where she might turn a trick

        Someone as drunk as Polly was described would be even more vulnerable

        She clearly had obtained by whatever means during the day sufficient money for her bed, at 2.30 am her options would have been reduced greatly to get money

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • #5
          If the below article is correct it clearly points to prostitution'.
          Oddly, you have summed up the quest for the truth in two letters Bravo!
          Be nice to one another!
          Merv

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
            Blamed his victims for causing him to kill !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            Polly Nichols
            If the below article is correct it clearly points to prostitution

            2:30 AM -- She meets Emily Holland, . Holland describes her as "very drunk and staggered against the wall.. Polly tells Emily that she had had her doss money three times that day and had drunk it away. She says she will return to Flower and Dean Street where she could share a bed with a man after one more attempt to find trade. "I've had my doss money three times today and spent it." She says, "It won't be long before I'm back." Found murdered

            I dont think that relates to borrowing money, begging, or stealing to get money. To me its quite specific what her intent was by the term referred to

            Street prostitution hasn't changed much prostitutes frequent specific areas, males seeking out prostitutes will go to those areas, and those who use them regularly will keep going back to those locations. So I would imagine anyone out at that time like Polly would know where to go where she might turn a trick

            Someone as drunk as Polly was described would be even more vulnerable

            She clearly had obtained by whatever means during the day sufficient money for her bed, at 2.30 am her options would have been reduced greatly to get money

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk
            Trevor,

            What’s the source for that? It doesn’t read like a contemporary press report.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
              Trevor,

              What’s the source for that? It doesn’t read like a contemporary press report.

              Casebook, under victims it would seem to have come from a newspaper


              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                Casebook, under victims it would seem to have come from a newspaper


                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                Thanks, Trev. I’ll look it up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jachim3926 View Post
                  '[B][/B]Ifin the below article is correct it clearly points to prostitution'.
                  Oddly, you have summed up the quest for the truth in two letters Bravo!

                  From the same source


                  Chapman
                  1:35 AM: Annie returns to the lodging house again. She is eating a baked potato. John Evans, the night watchman, has been sent to collect her bed money. "I haven't sufficient money for my bed," she tells him, "but don't let it. I shall not be long before I'm in." "You can find money for your beer and you can't find money for your bed." She steps out of the office and says. "Never mind, I'll soon be back." Goes out never seen alive again
                  Both show a propensity towards prostitution



                  Both articles show a propensity towards prostitution


                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jachim3926 View Post
                    '[B][/B]Ifin the below article is correct it clearly points to prostitution'.
                    Oddly, you have summed up the quest for the truth in two letters Bravo!

                    But Rubenhold and her followers dont want to listen or be prepared to accept the truth


                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                      From the same source


                      Chapman
                      1:35 AM: Annie returns to the lodging house again. She is eating a baked potato. John Evans, the night watchman, has been sent to collect her bed money. "I haven't sufficient money for my bed," she tells him, "but don't let it. I shall not be long before I'm in." "You can find money for your beer and you can't find money for your bed." She steps out of the office and says. "Never mind, I'll soon be back." Goes out never seen alive again
                      Both show a propensity towards prostitution



                      Both articles show a propensity towards prostitution


                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                      I very much doubt the ‘find trade’ wording comes from a press report. I would imagine it’s the interpretation of whoever wrote the Casebook article.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Some soliciting but all either looking for money by means such as begging or soliciting.

                        Which leaves open the possibility that there was no killer stalking the streets looking for victims, but a killer on the streets who took the opportunity that the interaction initiated by the women offered him. Which is not the same as going out looking for victims.

                        If that initiating interaction had not occurred, he might have continued on his way and home to bed.

                        P

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lars, AP always used to say that the women approached him, not vice versa.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If she had have taken the line that these ladies were in such a state that they found that prostitution was their only way of making money to live on she could have taken the feminist line and stayed on the side of the truth. I’m sure none of them chose this life, but due to alcoholism and economic necessity they found they had little choice. Unfortunately that’s all been said before and we have a book to sell.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes String, she could have said that the women were probably prostitutes and the fact that they were was all the fault of the patriarchy blah, blah, blah, but she may have run into trouble. Someone would be bound to pop up and say "And what's wrong with being a sex worker? What's wrong with someone freely choosing to be such a person?" If she then replied that being a prostitute was dangerous, she'd have been accused of victim-blaming. I kid you not.

                              Comment

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