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C-5: Killed While Soliciting or Not?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
    Thanks, Gareth. I had the same results when I looked for actual or similar wording.
    I agree that Polly not going with Emily Holland suggests she wasn't interested solely in just finding a place to sleep at that particular moment, otherwise why not take Emily up on the offer?
    Debs/Gareth,

    Was Holland offering a free bed for the night?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
      Was Holland offering a free bed for the night?
      One wonders whether Holland would have tried to persuade Polly to accompany her knowing that the latter was penniless and would have to pay, were this not the case. Alas we don't know, as it's not stated either way; at this point in the Ripper series, the newspaper coverage wasn't as extensive nor as detailed as it would later become, and Holland's exchange with the coroner was either very brief (esp. by Baxter's standards), or it was perfunctorily summarised by the press agency.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen"
      (F. Nietzsche)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        One wonders whether Holland would have tried to persuade Polly to accompany her knowing that the latter was penniless and would have to pay, were this not the case. Alas we don't know, as it's not stated either way; at this point in the Ripper series, the newspaper coverage wasn't as extensive nor as detailed as it would later become, and Holland's exchange with the coroner was either very brief (esp. by Baxter's standards), or it was perfunctorily summarised by the press agency.

        I think the latter is a strong possibility, and I am puzzled as to where the citation comes from, and how did it get onto casebook, and why has it has been left for so long before it being questioned.


        I also find the term "trade" interesting is it a Victorian word used by Victorian prostitutes to describe their work.


        Nowadays street prostitutes refer to their work as "business"


        That citation if correct clearly kicks a big hole in Rubenholds theory



        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • #34
          As you were! Although the vast majority of press accounts were very abbreviated, there was one that provided a much fuller transcript of Holland's testimony. East London Observer to the rescue:

          Emily Holland, an elderly woman in a brown dress, with a dolman and bonnet, whose naturally pale face was flushed with excitement, and who gave her address in a frightened manner, which necessitated the coroner frequently urging her to speak up, was then called. She lived at 18, Thrawl-street, she said - a common lodging-house - and was married.
          The Coroner: Did you know the deceased?
          Witness: Yes, I knew her. For about six weeks she slept in the same room with me, but she has not been in my house for the last ten days.
          The Coroner: Did you know where she was?
          Witness: She told me that she was living in another house, together with a lot of men and women. On Friday morning, at about half-past two o'clock, I was returning from a fire which I had been to see at Ratcliff, when I saw her at the corner of Osborn-street, Whitechapel-road, just outside a grocer's shop there.
          The Coroner: Which way was she going?
          Witness: She was coming down Osborn-street into the Whitechapel-road.
          The Coroner: Was she by herself?
          Witness: Yes.
          The Coroner: Did you stop to speak to her?
          Witness: Yes. She was the worse for drink.
          The Coroner: What do you mean? Could she walk straight?
          Witness: No; she staggered a bit.
          The Coroner: Did she say where she was going?
          Witness: No; but she told me she had altered the place where she was living.
          The Coroner: Did she tell you where that was?
          Witness: No; but I think it was in the next street. Flower and Dean-street, I understood.
          The Coroner: Did she say where she was going that night?
          Witness: No. I persuaded her to come home with me as she was the worse for drink, and I would get her lodgings where I was living, but she refused to come.
          The Coroner: Did she say where she had been?
          Witness: She said, "I have had my lodging money three times to day, and I have spent it."
          The Coroner: Did she say where she was going?
          Witness: No; but when I left her she turned towards this place (Whitechapel-road) and went along there.
          The Coroner: What did she do for a living?
          Witness: I don't know, sir.
          The Coroner: Did she stay out late at night?
          Witness: I don't know. She always seemed to keep herself to herself, and I don't know anybody that she knew.
          The Coroner: She never spoke about herself you mean.
          Witness: No, sir.
          The Coroner: Had you seen her before that night?
          Witness: No, I had not.
          The Coroner: Have you heard of anyone who saw her?
          Witness: No, sir.
          The Coroner: Do you know whether she used to get the worse for drink?
          Witness: I have seen her two or three times the worse for drink.
          The Coroner: Did you consider that she was very cleanly in her habits?
          Witness: Oh yes; she was a very clean woman.
          The Coroner: Did you think she was quarrelsome or good-tempered.
          Witness: I have never seen her quarrel with anybody.
          The Coroner: Did anyone ever threaten her?
          Witness: Not that I am aware of.
          The Coroner: Did she seem as if some trouble was weighing upon her?
          Witness: Yes, sir.
          The Coroner: How long were you with her?
          Witness: I had only just met her, and we were talking for about seven or eight minutes. While we were talking the clock at Whitechapel Church struck half-past two.
          The Coroner: What were you talking about all that time?
          Witness: I was persuading her to come home with me.
          The Coroner: Did she say anything about having an appointment?
          Witness: No, she did not say that she was to meet anybody. She said she had no money, and that she must make up the amount of her lodgings.
          Mr. Horey: I suppose you formed an opinion of what she meant.
          Witness: No; she said, "it won't be long before I'll be back."
          The Coroner: To your house?
          Witness: Yes; she said there were too many men and women at the place she was staying at, and she didn't like to go there.
          The Coroner: Where was that?
          Witness: I thought from what she told me that it was "The White House."
          A Juryman: Do you know of any companions she met?
          Witness: Only of one - a female - with whom she ate and drank for a few days.
          Mr. Horey: What name did you know her by?
          Witness: Only as "Polly."
          Mr. Horey: You were the first one to identify her?
          Witness: Yes, sir.
          Mr. Horey: Were you crying when you identified her?
          Witness: Yes; and it was enough to make anybody shed a tear, sir.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen"
          (F. Nietzsche)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            As you were! Although the vast majority of press accounts were very abbreviated, there was one that provided a much fuller transcript of Holland's testimony. East London Observer to the rescue:

            Emily Holland, an elderly woman in a brown dress, with a dolman and bonnet, whose naturally pale face was flushed with excitement, and who gave her address in a frightened manner, which necessitated the coroner frequently urging her to speak up, was then called. She lived at 18, Thrawl-street, she said - a common lodging-house - and was married.
            The Coroner: Did you know the deceased?
            Witness: Yes, I knew her. For about six weeks she slept in the same room with me, but she has not been in my house for the last ten days.
            The Coroner: Did you know where she was?
            Witness: She told me that she was living in another house, together with a lot of men and women. On Friday morning, at about half-past two o'clock, I was returning from a fire which I had been to see at Ratcliff, when I saw her at the corner of Osborn-street, Whitechapel-road, just outside a grocer's shop there.
            The Coroner: Which way was she going?
            Witness: She was coming down Osborn-street into the Whitechapel-road.
            The Coroner: Was she by herself?
            Witness: Yes.
            The Coroner: Did you stop to speak to her?
            Witness: Yes. She was the worse for drink.
            The Coroner: What do you mean? Could she walk straight?
            Witness: No; she staggered a bit.
            The Coroner: Did she say where she was going?
            Witness: No; but she told me she had altered the place where she was living.
            The Coroner: Did she tell you where that was?
            Witness: No; but I think it was in the next street. Flower and Dean-street, I understood.
            The Coroner: Did she say where she was going that night?
            Witness: No. I persuaded her to come home with me as she was the worse for drink, and I would get her lodgings where I was living, but she refused to come.
            The Coroner: Did she say where she had been?
            Witness: She said, "I have had my lodging money three times to day, and I have spent it."
            The Coroner: Did she say where she was going?
            Witness: No; but when I left her she turned towards this place (Whitechapel-road) and went along there.
            The Coroner: What did she do for a living?
            Witness: I don't know, sir.
            The Coroner: Did she stay out late at night?
            Witness: I don't know. She always seemed to keep herself to herself, and I don't know anybody that she knew.
            The Coroner: She never spoke about herself you mean.
            Witness: No, sir.
            The Coroner: Had you seen her before that night?
            Witness: No, I had not.
            The Coroner: Have you heard of anyone who saw her?
            Witness: No, sir.
            The Coroner: Do you know whether she used to get the worse for drink?
            Witness: I have seen her two or three times the worse for drink.
            The Coroner: Did you consider that she was very cleanly in her habits?
            Witness: Oh yes; she was a very clean woman.
            The Coroner: Did you think she was quarrelsome or good-tempered.
            Witness: I have never seen her quarrel with anybody.
            The Coroner: Did anyone ever threaten her?
            Witness: Not that I am aware of.
            The Coroner: Did she seem as if some trouble was weighing upon her?
            Witness: Yes, sir.
            The Coroner: How long were you with her?
            Witness: I had only just met her, and we were talking for about seven or eight minutes. While we were talking the clock at Whitechapel Church struck half-past two.
            The Coroner: What were you talking about all that time?
            Witness: I was persuading her to come home with me.
            The Coroner: Did she say anything about having an appointment?
            Witness: No, she did not say that she was to meet anybody. She said she had no money, and that she must make up the amount of her lodgings.
            Mr. Horey: I suppose you formed an opinion of what she meant.
            Witness: No; she said, "it won't be long before I'll be back."
            The Coroner: To your house?
            Witness: Yes; she said there were too many men and women at the place she was staying at, and she didn't like to go there.
            The Coroner: Where was that?
            Witness: I thought from what she told me that it was "The White House."
            A Juryman: Do you know of any companions she met?
            Witness: Only of one - a female - with whom she ate and drank for a few days.
            Mr. Horey: What name did you know her by?
            Witness: Only as "Polly."
            Mr. Horey: You were the first one to identify her?
            Witness: Yes, sir.
            Mr. Horey: Were you crying when you identified her?
            Witness: Yes; and it was enough to make anybody shed a tear, sir.

            i have e mailed case book admin to see if they can throw any light on the issue


            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
              i have e mailed case book admin to see if they can throw any light on the issue
              I don't think there's a particular mystery, Trevor. It's clear to me that the page on Casebook, and related Wiki, was written to tell Polly's story in a readable manner, and that the reference to "one more attempt to find trade" is a modern narrative addition. This may or may not have been Polly's intention, but she evidently didn't state so explicitly; the nearest we get is this, especially the part in bold:

              The Coroner: What were you talking about all that time?
              Witness: I was persuading her to come home with me.
              The Coroner: Did she say anything about having an appointment?
              Witness: No, she did not say that she was to meet anybody. She said she had no money, and that she must make up the amount of her lodgings.
              Mr. Horey: I suppose you formed an opinion of what she meant.
              Witness: No; she said, "it won't be long before I'll be back."

              The Coroner: To your house?
              Witness: Yes; she said there were too many men and women at the place she was staying at, and she didn't like to go there.
              The Coroner: Where was that?
              Witness: I thought from what she told me that it was "The White House".


              For info, Mr Horey was foreman of the jury, and may have been the same [Frederick William] Horey who sat on the Whitechapel Board of Works (see, for example, http://www.casebook.org/press_report...een881221.html). If so, he was a builder who lived at 12 Whitechapel Road.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen"
              (F. Nietzsche)

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                I don't think there's a particular mystery, Trevor. It's clear to me that the page on Casebook, and related Wiki, was written to tell Polly's story in a readable manner, and that the reference to "one more attempt to find trade" is a modern narrative addition. This may or may not have been Polly's intention, but she evidently didn't state so explicitly; the nearest we get is this, especially the part in bold:

                The Coroner: What were you talking about all that time?
                Witness: I was persuading her to come home with me.
                The Coroner: Did she say anything about having an appointment?
                Witness: No, she did not say that she was to meet anybody. She said she had no money, and that she must make up the amount of her lodgings.
                Mr. Horey: I suppose you formed an opinion of what she meant.
                Witness: No; she said, "it won't be long before I'll be back."

                The Coroner: To your house?
                Witness: Yes; she said there were too many men and women at the place she was staying at, and she didn't like to go there.
                The Coroner: Where was that?
                Witness: I thought from what she told me that it was "The White House".


                For info, Mr Horey was foreman of the jury, and may have been the same [Frederick William] Horey who sat on the Whitechapel Board of Works (see, for example, http://www.casebook.org/press_report...een881221.html). If so, he was a builder who lived at 12 Whitechapel Road.
                Mr Horey's questioning of Emily Holland came up in the podcast because in 'The Five' it was said that Coroner Baxter was questioning Emily Holland.

                I agree about Mr Horey's identification, as did Paul. I have found that inquest juries were normally taken from one or two streets on or around the inquest place.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                  i have e mailed case book admin to see if they can throw any light on the issue


                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                  Gareth is absolutely right. The Casebook and Casebook wiki pages provide a summary of events the night of Polly's murder taken from various sources. This is why I mentioned that maybe we do need to take a look at how much personal interpretation has been added to the information 'we' present on the victims.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
                    Debs/Gareth,

                    Was Holland offering a free bed for the night?
                    I presumed so, Gary. I was going by the report that Gareth just posted which I have seen before and found to be the fullest account and Emily said she tried to persuade Polly to go back with her, which sounded a pointless task if Polly still needed money to get a bed when she got there.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                      Mr Horey's questioning of Emily Holland came up in the podcast because in 'The Five' it was said that Coroner Baxter was questioning Emily Holland.
                      Indeed, Debs. Thanks for the reminder.
                      I agree about Mr Horey's identification, as did Paul.
                      I'm in good company, then! Assuming it hasn't been rebuilt since, Horey's house still stands as the right-hand half of 10-12 Whitechapel Road, under the blue arrow below:

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	12 Whitechapel Rd.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	97.9 KB
ID:	559402
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen"
                      (F. Nietzsche)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                        Gareth is absolutely right. The Casebook and Casebook wiki pages provide a summary of events the night of Polly's murder taken from various sources. This is why I mentioned that maybe we do need to take a look at how much personal interpretation has been added to the information 'we' present on the victims.
                        Which is why Keith Skinner was so determined to have personal comments taken out of the last revision of the A to Z and have them replaced, whenever possible, with a direct quote or at the very least a reference to the original source. It is surprisingly easy when writing a precis to interpret a meaning - as was shown recently with the use of walking the streets in Booth's Darkest England having an entirely different meaning to how we interpret the term today.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                          I presumed so, Gary. I was going by the report that Gareth just posted which I have seen before and found to be the fullest account and Emily said she tried to persuade Polly to go back with her, which sounded a pointless task if Polly still needed money to get a bed when she got there.
                          Debs,

                          The order in which it is reported suggests Holland’s attempt to persuade Polly to return with her came before Polly said she had no money.

                          And that is confirmed by Polly saying that she will back at Holland’s house before long - which suggests she still needed to earn the money for her night’s doss.

                          Gary

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Debra Arif View Post
                            Mr Horey's questioning of Emily Holland came up in the podcast because in 'The Five' it was said that Coroner Baxter was questioning Emily Holland.

                            I agree about Mr Horey's identification, as did Paul. I have found that inquest juries were normally taken from one or two streets on or around the inquest place.
                            Be very careful how you pronounce Horey, Debs
                            Don`t want to upset anyone !!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Paul View Post
                              Which is why Keith Skinner was so determined to have personal comments taken out of the last revision of the A to Z and have them replaced, whenever possible, with a direct quote or at the very least a reference to the original source. It is surprisingly easy when writing a precis to interpret a meaning - as was shown recently with the use of walking the streets in Booth's Darkest England having an entirely different meaning to how we interpret the term today.
                              Paul,

                              Booth’s usage may have been different, but the use of street walking/walker to mean soliciting/prostitute was very much in use in Victorian times.

                              Gary

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jon Simons View Post
                                Be very careful how you pronounce Horey, Debs!
                                It's spelt Horey, but it's pronounced "Throatwarbler-Mangrove" (© M Python)
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen"
                                (F. Nietzsche)

                                Comment

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