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C-5: Killed While Soliciting or Not?

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Half a pint of whisky is, what, five pints? Drunk quickly on an empty stomach that might well get you plastered.

    But the idea that anyone who drinks that much would be incapable of rational thought 4 hours later doesn’t wash. I’ve reluctantly dragged myself out of bed having had only a few hours sleep after a heavy night because I had to go to work.

    Reluctantly is the key word here, because I imagine the last think on earth Kate would have wanted to do was to leave her cosy cell and traipse the streets. Unless there was a pressing reason for her to do so.

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  • Mr. Poster
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    If, as you suggest, such a recovery is impossible, the only logical conclusion is that she was faking how drunk she was when was arrested.

    Thanks, Mr P!
    4 short lines with no indication of diction or slurring is hardly a conversation!

    Why would she fake being drunk and lying on damp pavement? To what objective?

    Unless she wanted to go to the cells ..which is unlikely as she wanted to get out again a short while later.

    There is no logical reason for her to be faking being drunk.

    In additon ...she stank of drink as she was carried by two policemen into the police station. Admittedly, women of her sort possibly stank of drink all the time but the stink was strong enough for the policemen to note it.

    From her inquest (copper as witness) Coroner - You are quite sure this woman was drunk? - She smelt very strongly of drink.

    And there is every reason to doubt that she was sober when leaving.

    P

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    She managed to engage in conversation with the custody officer and convince him that she was sober, come up with a false name and address, and find her way back to Aldgate. That’s very different from the legless ‘nothing’ who was arrested.
    If, as you suggest, such a recovery is impossible, the only logical conclusion is that she was faking how drunk she was when was arrested.

    Thanks, Mr P!

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Poster View Post
    At 8:00 pm she is plastered drunk. Cannot stand up. Lying in the gutter. Cannot stay erect even when leaning against the wall. Cannot walk unaided.

    By any scale that indicates a blood alchohol level of 0.15% up to 0.3% or therabouts. Thats something like a half pint of whiskey coursing through her veins at the lower end of teh concentration.

    By a little after midnight she is sober enough to be on her way. With a metabolic rate in relation to alchol of 0.016% per hour (give or take based on gender etc.) ..that means by midnight she was somewhere between (0.15-0.064) and (0.3-0.064) which is a range between 0.086 and 0.236%.

    At the lower level of that range she is, by any standards, alchohol impaired. ie. still drunk. Given that she was a seasoned drinker, maybe she could handle it better. Given that her organs were probably wrecked, her blood Levels may not have gone down as quick and she didnt sober up as qucik.

    Either way..... if you cannot stand up or walk at 8 o'clock, the idea that she was sober by midnight is preposterous.

    Therefore assuming she was making rational or sober decisions as to where she was heading off to on release is most probably a mistake.

    How drunk she was on release is impossible to judge as 1) it appears it was her own assessment as to sobriety that got her out and no-one ever thinks they are drunk, and 2) the policeman would never say she was drunk when he released her as he may have gotten into trouble for that.

    But by any estimate...you dont og from fall down drunk to rational clear headedness in 4 hours flat.

    In addition, her still being drunk when meeting her killer accords exactly with the other victims who, except for Stride, were impaired by sickness or drink. Theyre being impaired is one common theme in all the killings, except for Stride.

    P
    She managed to engage in conversation with the custody officer and convince him that she was sober, come up with a false name and address, and find her way back to Aldgate. That’s very different from the legless ‘nothing’ who was arrested.

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  • Mr. Poster
    replied
    At 8:00 pm she is plastered drunk. Cannot stand up. Lying in the gutter. Cannot stay erect even when leaning against the wall. Cannot walk unaided.

    By any scale that indicates a blood alchohol level of 0.15% up to 0.3% or therabouts. Thats something like a half pint of whiskey coursing through her veins at the lower end of teh concentration.

    By a little after midnight she is sober enough to be on her way. With a metabolic rate in relation to alchol of 0.016% per hour (give or take based on gender etc.) ..that means by midnight she was somewhere between (0.15-0.064) and (0.3-0.064) which is a range between 0.086 and 0.236%.

    At the lower level of that range she is, by any standards, alchohol impaired. ie. still drunk. Given that she was a seasoned drinker, maybe she could handle it better. Given that her organs were probably wrecked, her blood Levels may not have gone down as quick and she didnt sober up as qucik.

    Either way..... if you cannot stand up or walk at 8 o'clock, the idea that she was sober by midnight is preposterous.

    Therefore assuming she was making rational or sober decisions as to where she was heading off to on release is most probably a mistake.

    How drunk she was on release is impossible to judge as 1) it appears it was her own assessment as to sobriety that got her out and no-one ever thinks they are drunk, and 2) the policeman would never say she was drunk when he released her as he may have gotten into trouble for that.

    But by any estimate...you dont og from fall down drunk to rational clear headedness in 4 hours flat.

    In addition, her still being drunk when meeting her killer accords exactly with the other victims who, except for Stride, were impaired by sickness or drink. Theyre being impaired is one common theme in all the killings, except for Stride.

    P

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    I hope it’s OK to add Alice into the mix here.

    She seems to have been in a fairly stable relationship with John McCormack, but such was her desire for drink that she scarpered to the pub with the rent money. What kind of a reception could she have expected when next they met?

    (One of the early reports said that Alice appeared to be of the ‘unfortunate class’ because of the way she dressed.)

    I think HR may have missed a trick by not considering that Kate may have been forced into prostitution to avoid a beating from her man. And ditto, Alice, if she’d made it onto the list.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    Perhaps she was fearful of an encounter with Kelly before she had money with which to placate him and was wary of trying to earn that money where she was known.
    An ingenious suggestion, and eminently plausible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Kate still bothers me because of her fairly stable set up with Kelly.

    But for some reason she made an effort to be released from her cell. Bearing in mind that JTR was apparently the talk of the hop fields, why would she be so keen to leave the safety and relative comfort of her cell, and why did she head back to the place where she had previously been arrested rather than to her home turf of Spitalfields? If she’d kept quiet and pretended to be asleep, she might not have been turned out until daylight.

    Her comment about getting a ‘good hiding’ when she got home is a curious one. She had no home to go to, but perhaps admitting that might have hampered her release. As for getting a good hiding, given how hard up she and Kelly were and that he had at some point to pawn his boots, I doubt he was best pleased when he heard that she had managed to secure some money and had promptly spent it on drink.

    Perhaps she was fearful of an encounter with Kelly before she had money with which to placate him and was wary of trying to earn that money where she was known.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Polly Nichols had moved from 18, Thrawl Street to the White House and/or 35, Dorset Street where, according to Ellen Holland, she felt uncomfortable. The most likely reason she did so was because she was unable to take men back to Thrawl Street.

    The women in Thrawl Street knew Polly as an ‘unfortunate’ while she was with them, but either Polly preferred entertaining her clients indoors, or there was more money to be made that way.

    Given this recent history, and that she needed money on the night of her murder, the obvious conclusion is that she was at least considering soliciting. And the fact that she ended up in a dark back street behind the Whitechapel Road further supports that.

    The only way her lying down to sleep in a stable doorway would make sense is if she had collapsed there from drunkenness or exhaustion. And if Harriett Lilley’s evidence is ignored.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adam Went
    replied
    Originally posted by Anna Morris View Post
    None of those thoughts were in my mind when I started this thread. Like I said I am not terribly interested at this time in who was JtR but a different pattern from ´killed while soliciting´might lead us to new information.

    Beyond how and why did these women connect to the killer, was there some other angle we could learn about? Pizer was accused of roughing up unfortunates. Why? Did he sometimes lend them money and was that how he collected? Pizer was not JtR and does not seem to be involved in these cases but were there other men who had contacts with women on the street, who filled certain needs like providing a place to sleep or loaning a few pennies?

    While I do not think Polly, Annie or Kate would have been considered as targets for robbery, remember that Emma Smith was robbed or simply attacked by a gang as she told it. What else was going on besides unfortunates and clients? There might be a lot more we can learn.
    Hi Anna,

    Definitely. Unfortunately one of the side effects even today for the poor and unfortunate is that there will always be enablers - people who will lend you money or do other favours for you, which inevitably means taking advantage of the less fortunate. And it all just becomes one big, nasty wheel. I've got no doubt that there was a multitude of pimps, loan sharks, swindlers, etc who would do this, not just the stories about Pizer who we know about through this case. As with now, some people have no morals and it wouldn't been about establishing a position of superiority over others, from which to use as leverage to gain for themselves. Mayhew's social studies from the Victorian era give a fascinating insight into these issues.

    Cheers,
    Adam.

    Leave a comment:


  • Anna Morris
    replied
    IMO there was enough blood reported underneath Kateś body, that as the police at the time said, she must have been killed exactly where she was found.

    IMO the killer had a protocol to achieve his aims. However it was done--IMO some form of choking in most cases--he got the women down on the ground, on their backs before he did any throat cutting. This way arterial spray was directed away from him and into the gutter, onto the ground or onto a fence or wall. I also think he turned their heads while on the ground, to facilitate blood spurting or draining away from himself.

    (Concerning MJK, I wonder if he took the opportunity to cut her throat without otherwise subduing her and if this is why she was able to--if she did--cry out, ¨Murder!¨ I think the killer had many special activities with Mary in the privacy of her room.)

    If I am right in general about how he accomplished his deeds then the victims he chose + location would have been calculated to fulfill his fantasies or coldblooded activities, however we look at it. He must have calculated that those women could be subdued, laid down quietly and killed. Predatory animals calculate risks before attacking and I think the killer fits that description.

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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Packers Stem View Post
    The shutters appear to be closed .
    They're open on the shop one .
    Truth is , none of us know what was behind the shutters
    No, but we can hazard a reasonable guess: a sash window.

    Leave a comment:


  • Packers Stem
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    As seen here:

    [ATTACH]19490[/ATTACH]
    The shutters appear to be closed .
    They're open on the shop one .
    Truth is , none of us know what was behind the shutters

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Gary Barnett View Post
    But with a glazed sash window behind it, presumably?
    As seen here:

    Click image for larger version

Name:	876D15DD-B975-4DEF-8F3F-CB7D54B5D995.jpeg
Views:	1
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  • Gary Barnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Packers Stem View Post
    Technically , a wooden shutter .
    Big one at that , door sized
    But with a glazed sash window behind it, presumably?

    Leave a comment:

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